Old 09-15-2015, 04:12 PM   #1
Dr Bob
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Hi,

Here's a piece done for the KVR OSC 79 (using Lokomotiv VSTi as the only sound source).

The track is made completely using the Noatikl Generative Music Lab. No editing of the sounds (so some dischords/anomalies will be there due to the probabilistic nature of the process).

Was fun learning my way around this software after using Koan Pro many many moons ago!

https://soundcloud.com/doctorbob/doc...c-79-lokomotiv

Enjoy (or not!).

dB
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:43 PM   #2
jopatius
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I stopped at 1:20 because a sentence formulated itself in my mind: "this is just cacophony".
I have no problem with dissonance or experimental stuff or such.
My problem was that I did not undertand what did you want to say with this piece. It was as if you had just layered one track on top of another, considering them equally important, therefore ultimately asymptotically approaching white noise, in this case you just had stopped before reaching quite that point.

It could have been better just by mixing the bass more up and everything else more down. That would have made sense or at least a feeling of sense to me. Yes, the mix was the main problem for me.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:23 AM   #3
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Thanks for the honest reply. Yes, I understand your points.

In the end, what was layered and how was the software decisions not mine. I did some mixing of the sounds, but yes thte first section could do with being less of a "noise".

If you could, have a listen to the second part as this is rhythmic with arp style sounds etc ... maybe this would be more appealing as a generative process.

Thanks again,

I'll try to do better next time ;-)

Cheers,

dB
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:46 AM   #4
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well, I think that this is one result of mostly misunderstood Brian Enos ambient approach.

Noatikl and all other generative tools are lacking the same illness (or better: the users of these tools lacking some understanding): these are maybe great or good for making some interesting textures. but not letting them run loose for 3, 5 or 40 minutes.

point is: they are heading to no point. the wave around in the same algorithm for the whole time. so musically it starts, it goes on with its doodling and ends when the user hits stop. there is no building up, no curve of nothing, nothing that is headed towards. of course is a suspension curve not always needed in its full build out, but there has to be one in at least one aspect.

these things arent capable of harmonically build ups, they run literally into nowhere land. they are doodling into nirvana, and not in a good way.

back to Brian Eno: afaik he used parts from the doodling. the same as Jan Hammer for Miami Vice didnt use the IPS in Cubase, he used parts, that were generated by the IPS.

all in all what I think about this generative tools is, that they give you pointless doodling. its like a cheap version of Yngwie Malmsteen but for ambient/electronica. and not nearly as fast.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:57 AM   #5
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Hi,

Yes, I do understand Brian's approach - chatted a while with him many moons ago! Yes, he used the various generative tools to create chunks of sound to be used in building pieces.

You are absolutely right about these processes going nowhere - which is why I generated the midi tracks, popped on the VSTi, and then generated the waveforms. From then I automated the volumes and pans to create some "musical interest". As you say, the software tools pretty much lack the ability to create "standard" musical structures as we typically know them, and being free running, they of course continue "doodling" for ever (not a good thing), although Brian did do a 3 hour piano concert where he sat and pressed the keys with his arms folded - not even a "prepared" piano either - the idea was to listen to the "structures" within the sound of many notes. Most walked out, but a few die hards stayed to the end. Go figure!

I simply see this technology/technique as a means to create interesting textures which you just might not have happened upon yourself, but with a certain amount of control to generate in a key or set of keys with a certain harmonic structure, to allow the snippets to be used in more "mainstream" compositions.

Hope this makes some sense as to where I was coming from.

Cheers, and thanks for the comment, all good,

dB
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:22 AM   #6
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It does require a bit of patience to listen to the whole thing. I think the odd discord here and there makes it interesting. I agree that the thing to do is to chop up what's been generated and rearrange it make some sense of it.

I like the idea of use generative tools to find something that you would never have considered otherwise, but in the end the work has to tell a story if it's going to connect with the audience. That's where the human intervention comes in (at least, for now).
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Old 10-09-2015, 08:06 AM   #7
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I didnt mean "standard structures" in a sense of "you have to have always some V - II - VI or whatever harmonies". or have a song structure or a symphony structure.

these tools lack the knowledge of how to build up suspense and release suspense. in all aspects: rhythmically, harmonically, melodywise.

if one of these tools would have parameters as e.g. "build harmonically tension about 2 min, release it within 10 seconds, modulate 2 steps down and build a new tension for 1 min and use all 12/24 keys throughout the whole thing modulating via thirds in chords being new root note or tritonus substitution (use these both at random) and keep parts of being 8 - 12 bars long, change the beat pattern not abrupt but evolve with the supspense curve ... "

you get the picture.

I am with you when it comes to textures. these tools can clearly go where nearly no musician could imagine that you could go there.

there was for Atari a long time ago a program called Presto. that thing could follow such kind of rules, but lacked the aspect of creating textures.
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Old 10-09-2015, 04:29 PM   #8
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Thanks LightofDay.

When I was working with Richard Orton, I was looking to design and program some new structures into his system Tabula Vigilans. The idea was to have some form of "event" scheduling to help with structural elements/forms (lacking in most/all the generative stuff of late!), and of course, a scheduled event could be scheduling another. So you could have notes, chord changes, etc etc setup to happen sometime in the timeline of the pieces.

If you could "macro-ize" a series of events/sections/patterns then of course, you could then schedule them to happen.

Of course, another aspect would be to generate "code" for future execution as well - anything would have been possible.

Sadly, it didn't happen.

Worked with Trevor Wishart et al as well and various folk on the original Desktop Composers Project (CDP). Ataris followed by SGI Indigos and then to PC's.

Cheers,

dB
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:26 AM   #9
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Well I thought that was cool, liked it a lot! A bit like Bee Mask in some places - could definitely do with refinement.

I don't think all music should always be about suspense and release, sometimes just immersing yourself in continuous flow for an unspecified amount of time is liberating.

Last edited by lowest form; 10-15-2015 at 03:33 AM.
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