Waves Gold vs Izotope Studio

[J9mm]

So I am about to embark upon recording my band as a bit of a project. Normally I am just recording my own music but I thought it would we good to branch out.

I am using Reaper with a Zoom R24 and a laptop running win 7

Primarily I will be recording audio buit I plan to use a few VSTi to add in a little bit of keys, synth and also to replace my floor effects (guitar)

As part of this project I thought I might be good to invest in a plug in package, I know reaper comes with a fairly decent free set many of which I use, but I was wondering if getting either the waves GOLD or Izotope studio package would be an upgrade... given that I am going to be mixing and mastering 18 songs it also seems to me that now would be a perfect time to invest.

Izotope Studio comes with Ozone 5, Alloy 2 and Nectar 2
Our singer is ok, but not great and does warble a bit..., so having Nectar could make life much easier, I also like the idea of doing all my mastering in 1 plug - being able to create a skeleton preset to give all 17 songs some cohesion. I am unconvinced about alloy 2 though. I am also thinking that once I have nailed using these 3 packs mixing future projects will be less time consuming (I am not a fan of mixing) as I will be restricted to the confines of the packages...

Waves gold seems pretty comprehensive, but I understand that some of the plugs are now quite old? However having individual components strikes me as being a bit more flexible and means I don't have massive of required components loaded into the project (one of my fears with alloy), however getting to know 30+ plugins well enough to make good choices seems daunting.

I am going to trial both, but having only 7 days with waves makes it really hard, where as Izotope offer 30 days, I can get both for around the same price so that is not a factor.

Any thoughts, opinions or experiences you'd care to share?

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by J9mm

Any thoughts, opinions or experiences you'd care to share?

My two cents: If you aren't a professional, just use the Reaper plugins. They are excellent and powerful. It's all about your ears and your technique.

Instead, I'd identify exactly what you feel you need and look at the alternatives. For example. I use Stillwell's Rocket compressor on nearly every project. It's my favorite compressor. And they sell a non-commercial license for Reaper users that is only $25. ValhallaDSP has great reverbs and delays, and those are only $50. And Limiter No 6 is a phenomenal compressor/clipper/limiter that is free! Not to mention all the JS plugins that come with Reaper (no need for Waves Maxx Bass when you have JS Huge Booty!).

You'll find lots of other great suggestions for plugins in these forums. Spend a little time experimenting, and I think you'll have everything you need without spending $500-$800.

[ivansc]

Second that. I do hap[p[en to own a fair few "premium" plugins, but all were bought on special with anywhere between 50% and 90% price reduction!
And I still wind up with Valhalla room and the reaper plugs on most things.

You can`t substitute experience working with the tools you already have with spending money on more tools you don`t really know how to use properly.
Just means you postpone doing the work and have TWO learning curves to deal with!

[camerondye]

What are the main plugins you are looking for or have a hole in your collection or are you starting from scratch?...and what kind of music are you recording?

[HOFX]

If you're recording rock, best bang for the buck would be, in order:
- Slate VCC
- Slate VTM
- Slate VBC

And use ReaPlugs for all other. VCC will give you the analogue vibe, VTM will fatten up the lowend and polish the high end, and VBC will make the drums and mixbuss punch.

My 2c.

[J9mm]

Originally Posted by camerondye

What are the main plugins you are looking for or have a hole in your collection or are you starting from scratch?...and what kind of music are you recording?

Well in terms of Audio Manipulation all I have is the plugs that come with Reaper, nothing else at all.

[camerondye]

Well I will take it as a per effect situation now that I've listened to some of the music examples in your signature.

Waves - If you buy anything Waves I would get the Musicians II bundle only to start out with. It has great Eq's, the compressors are easy to set and sound good, and has doubler which is a plugin I still use to this day to fatten up vocals. I personally own the Mercury Bundle but I like a lot of their newer things that aren't included in Gold. The 2 plugins that I would just watch for being on sale from AudioDeluxe that aren't in Musicians II but in Gold are H-Delay and H-Comp. Those 2 are really cool and fun to use plugins that I would recommend. Waves tune and the light version of tune are actually better at auto-tuning vocals than auto tune and is a good option if you need it. Remember that all waves stuff is free to try out and you don't need an ilok anymore so try it out.

Eq - Reaper's EQ is perfectly fine and can pretty much get you going. My favorite EQ is Fabfilter Pro-Q but I wouldn't say it sounds better necessarily but it's definitely my favorite and has some nice options. I wouldn't spend the money here if I were you.

Compression - This is the one where I would want a couple of flavors. I never use ReaComp, that doesn't mean it isn't just fine but I use certain things for certain sounds and like comps that have less control over everything. I would get something like the Rocket or an 1176 type of compression to inject a little excitement into your vocals. I would also get an SSL type compressor for my buss like "The Glue" because I love SSL type compression for this and it really does do a great job on the master buss.

Reverb / Delay - Everything Valhalla DSP does is great and I consider to be one of the best bang for the buck companies for VST's. You really can't go wrong with these and I have the most expensive options and still use these...they are great.
http://valhalladsp.com/

The other thing to do is to get the Bricasti M7 Impulse Responses and a stereo convolution reverb like reverberate because it is a good way to get damn good reverbs for not much money. I own a real Bricasti M7 hardware reverb and I can say they aren't the same but they are definitely in the direction and sound excellent. The M7 is by far my favorite option but it isn't a VST. My favorite VST delay is Sountoys Echoboy and my favorite VST reverb is the Lexicon PCM, UAD EMT 250, and the UAD Ocean Way which is one of the best room verbs I've ever heard. All of these are super expensive and probably wouldn't be the smartest things to start out on. PSP audioware also makes some really good easy to set delays but try them out and see if you like any of them.

Limiter - My favorite limiter is the Fab-filter Pro-L because I think it does the best job of making your mix louder without changing the sound of your mix. I haven't used and do not know of any option for a cheaper limiter. Fabfilter makes amazing stuff for sure. Izotope Ozone has a limiter that I think almost as good as Pro-L and has some other goodies on it also and does save you a bit of money.

Distortion - This is the one that I've been using a ton lately for compression and so many things. A lot of time I will use a distortion program over an eq to bring something to the front. A lot of times you don't hear the distortion but it does something cool to bring things out. Fab-Filter Saturn is one of my favorites, some of the softube ones are really cool...just look around. This is one I like to have options of because all do different things really well.

Find the vst's that work for you and make them work. Don't go insane with too many options and learn to make it work with what you have as opposed to getting too many options. You will learn more and become better at your job. Get inventive with your VST's and run delays/reverbs into compression and the distortions and then mix them in on a buss. Learn how to use your reverb and delays on busses for sure and use them on several instruments because it will glue your mixes together. Read and learn about studio techniques because technology is a cool thing and it is amazing that our $60 Reaper program destroys most of the options that our favorite bands of the 60's and 70's ever dreamed of.

[whiteaxxxe]

you are imo completely set with that.

as for the Slate recommendation: if you want to boost your signal into neverland and degrade it deliberately to make it sound "analog" ... you should waste your money on that hype-bullshit.

seriously, all I heard that was made "analog-sounding" regardless whether real analog gear was involved or digitally emulated analog gear was used ... it sounded all degraded, overcompressed, artificially, mid-ish or harsh, or simply dull but distorted, what they call "warm". simply put: I heard highly praised productions from so-called pro-producers that made me facepalm. that is all a really, really very big hype, nothing more.

before buying Slate or Waves products, I would really consider that you listen with some days in between it to things produced with these. you will get in no time so tired of this artifically made "analog" sound, that will stay away from that purchases.

serious: all this "analog-makers" cant do nothing than degrade the signal. what else should they do? digital is way beyond analog. everyone believing in the opposite is way behind earwise and/or simply a believer in nothing but marketing hype.

these are my 10 cents ... and I will go up to 100 cent ... €-cent of course.

[clepsydrae]

Agreed that you can start with Reaper plugins and hold off on purchases until you really feel you need them.

I have Alloy 2 and like it a lot; it's basically what i rely on these days. I've used Waves stuff in the past and liked it as well.

Alloy 2 is a convenient way to cover a lot of needs at once. I got it on sale for $150 and you get one plugin that does EQ, compression, transient enhancement, exciting, limiting, de-essing, etc., re-orderable according to need. The interface it at times great and at times a little wonky, but nothing serious. It's not like the usual all-in-one "channel strip" plugins that have half-assed versions of all that stuff; each component is serious in its own right. I find myself preferring that approach rather than the Waves approach of a bunch of separate versions of the individual plugins for every permutation (i.e. "compressor, mono version, not multi-band", "compressor, mono version, multi-band", etc etc.)

I do use Reaper plugins sometimes (ReaEq, ReaComp, and ReaVerb for convolution reverbs); they sound fine to me. Sometimes they are a bit limiting, but every now and then they do things that Alloy 2 doesn't (e.g. extreme-Q eq). I use the free Limiter No6 for gentle last-in-master-chain brickwall ISP limiting (Alloy 2's limiter is not brickwall.)

I think it's a good combo overall. Works for me, anyway.

[Judders]

In regards to Whiteaxxxe's comments on horrible mixes, the good thing is you can listen to his mixes if you follow the link in his sig and decide for yourself if they're better than mix engineers who use analogue equipment or software emulations

So many plug-ins have some sort of analogue emulation involved these days, like EQs with emulated transformers and preamps etc., I wouldn't worry about anything other than the sound. If you like what it does, use it. Different things will be appropriate for different occasions.

I would say though, it took me a good while to really know what it was I wanted. For that reason, I'd be wary of dropping a ton of money on premium stuff just yet. The truth is, there are great-sounding and super-useful plug-ins at all price points, if you know what you're listening for.

You will get as many opinions as you get replies. My tuppence worth for bang-for-buck goes to ToneBoosters and Overtone DSP.

Best thing you can do is demo as much stuff as you can. Decide what you like and determine if you can replicate the effect with Reaper plugs. If you can't, buy it.

One last word of advice: it is all to easy to spend a fortune on a hundred cheap plug-ins, but decent gear like instruments, microphones, audio interface etc. is worth twice its price in plug-ins.

[camerondye]

Alloy 2 is a great plugin for sure but I think it leans towards doing things for you and I think that it isn't as CPU friendly for just a compressor or EQ as some other things. On the other hand, on the things that you need need a little bit of all of them or a channel strip...it's a good option but just make sure to learn how to set up a compressor and eq and all that stuff. You will be happy you learned.

I read in a book once a more fool proof way of setting up a compressor on any instrument that once I started using it I honestly started hearing what everything did better.

Set the attack to anywhere, release to minimum or fastest, ratio to maximum, and the threshold to a point where it is doing a decent amount of compression so you can hear it. First set the attack with all of these settings, it makes it easier to hear what the attack is doing and how much it thins out the transient. 2nd, set the release time. Listen for how the track is reacting with the rest of the instruments...how it grooves with the music. 3rd set the ratio, generally don't go insane on the ratio but listen to the options and how it's affecting the girth of the track. 4th and last, set the threshold. Make sure it's not compressing all the time and adds instead of flattens the track unless you are positive that's what you want the track to do. Also, remember that stacking compression sometimes is a cool thing on tracks but stacking two 4:1 compressors is more like 16:1 than 8:1 and watch out about over-compressing.

[clepsydrae]

Originally Posted by camerondye

Alloy 2 is a great plugin for sure but I think it leans towards doing things for you and I think that it isn't as CPU friendly for just a compressor or EQ as some other things.

I can't speak to it's overall CPU use relative to other plugins, but i can tell you that you can disable any of the modules so they aren't using CPU. E.g. with just the EQ module on, it's just an EQ.

[citizenkeith]

Tell me more about your recording setup. What interface are you using? What kind of microphones do you have at your disposal? Any outboard preamps?

Plugins will not make or break a recording. What you are using to record your sounds WILL make a big difference. You might be better off spending that money on some microphones.

[J9mm]

Wow, thatnks for all the responses!

My recording setup is pretty simple - I have a zoom R24 as an interface, I am using an SE electronics Z5600 for vocals and acoustic guitar - for bass I have an SM57 and I also have a Behringer C1 for general use.

For this project my drummer has a set of AKG drum mics

I have no studio outboard gear at all.

Sadly for me monitoring is going to be done mainly through headphones (audio technica M50-x).

We will be recording in a partially treated room

The band is not like my own songs, we are pretty bluesy and have a female singer...

Clearly I am limited by both equipment available and the room, I should say that I am based in Switzerland and here booking into a studio is an eye watering cost.. the plan for us is to get as good as we can doing the album ourselves, I know it can't be studio Quality but I know we can get something good enough.

I appreciate that there are 1000's of available plugins, each with certain sounds, colours etc..

Whilst the free plugs that come with reaper are decent enough, I find some (eg reatune and the reverb) quite hard to use, partially it's the GUI's and for some it's simply I don-t like the sounds (particularly the Reverb and delay). I also feel the Reaper plugs lack a little warmth, which I think for the sound I am going for with the band would be needed.

The next thing is that whilst I have a knowledge of mixing - either from my own trial and error and via a few books, there is a lot less material out there for the reaplugs than other packages.

So at least I would look to buy a reverb and delay, but so many individual plugs cost a lot of money that I was then drawn to buy a "set"

So far I have tested out Nectar 2 and Ozone 5 on some of my own songs
I have to say I really like the Nectar plug, it is so easy to use and I was getting much better (to my ears) vocal sounds out of it, the delay is weak though.

Ozone 5 seems ok, but I haven't had much chance to use it yet. I haven't got round to alloy 2 yet, that is next on the list.

I plan to look at Waves and and Fabfilter plugs over the coming weeks, as well as others.

We will be recording in Jan so I have time I am beginning to think though that I am not going to notice enough of a difference between the REA stuff and others to warrant a purchase, though Nectar 2 might make it because of ease of use...

[citizenkeith]

I can't emphasize this enough: Buy good monitors. There are tons of great choices out there that cost the same (or less) than Waves Gold.

Get a copy of Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio and read the first couple chapters, specifically about choosing monitors, setting up your studio, etc:

http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Secrets...mixing+secrets

This will do more for you than Waves Gold or iZotope Studio.

It sounds like you have a good selection of microphones. You may want to record the bass direct... the SM57 won't have much low end. Or maybe grab a used Audix D4 for the bass amp.

Seriously, I would have no problems recording a band with your mic selection, good monitors and Reaper-only plugins.

Invest in the basic building blocks. Plugins are just hype. Believe me, you'll do great work!

[camerondye]

Originally Posted by citizenkeith

Plugins are just hype.

I agree with most everything you say in your post but this hype comment is just straight up wrong. There are a ton of plugins that basically do things you can't even do with hardware and think of all the plugins that are stereo versions of mono only hardware. Limiter plugins alone, good or bad, are almost always software now because hardware isn't near as fast as software. The ease of throwing a plugin in later that you didn't think of while tracking is near priceless and having some options is never a bad thing IMO. Too many options sucks also but none is just silly.

Learning is never a bad thing, but IMO the best thing is actually doing it. You can read all you want about cutting drums at 300 but until you've heard it, you'll never know when it's a good thing and how much. Plugins are tools like anything else and ignoring them would be silly. I also think that most of a great album is done before you even press record, read up on production and make sure everybody is completely ready.

[J9mm]

Originally Posted by citizenkeith

I can't emphasize this enough: Buy good monitors. There are tons of great choices out there that cost the same (or less) than Waves Gold.

Get a copy of Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio and read the first couple chapters, specifically about choosing monitors, setting up your studio, etc:

http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Secrets...mixing+secrets

This will do more for you than Waves Gold or iZotope Studio.

It sounds like you have a good selection of microphones. You may want to record the bass direct... the SM57 won't have much low end. Or maybe grab a used Audix D4 for the bass amp.

Seriously, I would have no problems recording a band with your mic selection, good monitors and Reaper-only plugins.

Invest in the basic building blocks. Plugins are just hype. Believe me, you'll do great work!

Monitors unfortunately is something where I have limitations, I live in a small flat with wife and baby - due to life/work I do all my music late, hence the headphones only. I have a small pair of Behringer monitors which I use to do a final check before cutting - then I listen though as many speakers and different headphones as possible to check - not ideal.

I am hoping for this project that I can borrow some alesis m2 mk1 (used to be mine) monitors and wangle a couple of dedicated days of final mixing from the wife

[clepsydrae]

And when you think you hear more or less warmth or more or less of any particular quality, you can check yourself for confirmtion bias by mixing down two samples and seeing if you can discriminate between them with this tool: http://lacinato.com/cm/software/othersoft/abx

[camerondye]

I honestly think that you can do a lot with a good pair of headphones. I think certain things you can hear better and certain things you can't. I would definitely want a $200 pair of headphones over a $200 set of monitors. I don't think you are going to be able to do everything but you have a good family of people here on this website, make some friends and I bet you will be able to make a pretty good album.

Do some experiments with recording and ask questions to the people you trust to give you good advice? The Reaper forum is a wonderful place to learn, one of the best forums for people who want to help and will donate their time to helping others because at one time those people needed the help too.

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I agree with most everything you say in your post but this hype comment is just straight up wrong. .

You're right. That was a blanket statement that was not necessary. But I think my point remains. I'm not saying that plugins are not necessary, but Reaper gives you everything you need to do do great work. And it sounds to me that the OP's money can be better spent.

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I would definitely want a $200 pair of headphones over a $200 set of monitors.

Agreed. But the OP is planning to spend much more than $200 on a software package.

Monitoring is the most important part of making good recordings. If you can have faith in what you are hearing during playback, you can make accurate decisions when choosing EQ and compression settings.

[camerondye]

I think you can make a good argument that room treatment is as important as monitoring, I always argue that pre-production is what makes the best album. That's why I try and answer the question asked by the OP because everybody has what's important to them and sometimes things are just for having fun which is ok too.

I think everybody has a path and when we all are using the same tools (because we are essentially) there has to be a reason we all sound completely different. My personal feeling is it's the path we take and that's what makes us all different and special and saying that one thing is more important, even when you have a good argument like you do, is no more than an opinion. Who knows, he could find a plugin and change the way we all do things or get better monitors and put us all out of work.

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I think you can make a good argument that room treatment is as important as monitoring, I always argue that pre-production is what makes the best album. That's why I try and answer the question asked by the OP because everybody has what's important to them and sometimes things are just for having fun which is ok too.

I think everybody has a path and when we all are using the same tools (because we are essentially) there has to be a reason we all sound completely different. My personal feeling is it's the path we take and that's what makes us all different and special and saying that one thing is more important, even when you have a good argument like you do, is no more than an opinion. Who knows, he could find a plugin and change the way we all do things or get better monitors and put us all out of work.

Of course it's my opinion. I assume the OP asked the question because he wanted opinions. I'm just trying make my case, just like you!

[camerondye]

Good advice too which is always needed

[J9mm]

Once again, many thanks for all the replies - don't think I'll be putting anyone out of work any time soon though

I spent the weekend recording a new tune, really trying to get the basic audio as good as I can. Now the plan will be to downlaod the Waves, Fabfilter, Sonnox and Izotope packages and mix the same song a few time, then give it a gap before comparing the final renders.

Reading through this thread though and having played already with the Izoptope and Reaper plugs I am begining to wonder if I am chasing a magic bullet and hoping that "good" plugins would compensate for my own limitations, in knowledge, ears and my situation. Mainly, outside of myself I think I have two large problems that I will struggle to overcome, namely the room and lack of decent monitors.

That's not to say that either of those are insumountable but I wonder if in comparison the plugin "improvement" I am chasing over what I already have is actually insignificant.. Time will tell I guess.

The main thing is I don't just want to throw money after a pile of software that really doesn't help me any. What would matter to me though is getting an improved work flow / time spent to results relationship, that could be worth some money.

I guess the point here for me (and the band) is that this is a project that will help us understand the recording process better, and will prepare us for either future attempts or the possibility of using a pro studio.

Still reading through the thread has been helpful and I would gladly recieve further advice if any is forthcoming

[clepsydrae]

I think the difference between plugins will indeed be minor, and it's tricky to AB different brands like that because tiny random differences in how you make mixing choices when mixing with plugin set A will outweigh the actual difference between it and plugin set B. I'd say the difference in workflow (e.g. how you interface with the plugin UIs) will probably also outweigh the sonic differences. Which is not to say that the plugins will be worthless. If you try them all out and your mix with plugin set B is amazing an the rest are terrible, then who knows why it worked, but it worked, and maybe it will work again. Fortunately you can try the demos and see if anything obvious jumps out for you.

To me, the biggest differences in plugins in the cheap/free tier vs. the pro tier comes in the effect category: reverbs, delays, "weird" effects, etc. The compresors and EQs and limiters all sound the same (or equivalent in quality) to my ears, so until my ears are good enough to care, I don't worry about those.

The old adages that band practice and room choice and treatment and mic technique monitoring are the most important things: yes. Plugins and other technical details give our brains something tangible and simple to worry over as a way of avoiding the harder stuff. :-)

[Judders]

It's not always about price, but compressors, EQs and limiters definitely sound different.

For compressors and limiters, distortion is a big factor. It's tough to find a transparent limiter, and programme-dependant attack/release compressors are not all created equal.

As for EQs, as an example, I demo'd the Waves and IK API EQs this week. The Waves ones had tightness and punch to low end boosts, and air without crunchiness to the highs. The IK versions of the same EQs were flabby and crunchy as hell. Night and day.

Even though the list price of the Waves API collection is way more than the IK versions (accounting for the fact you get a compressor in the Waves bundle), you can find 3rd party deals on the Waves stuff cheaper than the IK custom shop.

[clepsydrae]

Originally Posted by Judders

As for EQs, as an example, I demo'd the Waves and IK API EQs this week. The Waves ones had tightness and punch to low end boosts, and air without crunchiness to the highs. The IK versions of the same EQs were flabby and crunchy as hell. Night and day.

Do you still have the demos installed? Would you mind uploading examples? Thanks.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by clepsydrae

And when you think you hear more or less warmth or more or less of any particular quality, you can check yourself for confirmtion bias by mixing down two samples and seeing if you can discriminate between them with this tool: http://lacinato.com/cm/software/othersoft/abx

I'm very wary of ABX testing. Some things take a bit of living with before you can make an assessment.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by clepsydrae

Do you still have the demos installed? Would you mind uploading examples? Thanks.

Ooh, the Waves ones were just 7 days. I'll check tomorrow, and if they're still valid I'll post something. Got a feeling it's been longer though :S

Not sure how long I'd have to wait before I can demo them again, or if that's even possible.

Regardless, I'd much rather use ReaEQ than the IK API. Though I do quite like the IK Neve EQ (low end is still flabby though).

[clepsydrae]

Originally Posted by Judders

I'm very wary of ABX testing. Some things take a bit of living with before you can make an assessment.

I'm strenuously resisting the urge to go OT. :-)

[camerondye]

I agree, show me how to do what the Softube Valley People Dynamite does with Reacomp and I'll eat my words. There are definitely plugins out there that are better on certain sources for sure. Given the Dynamite doesn't work on many things like ReaComp but it's one trick pony status is theirs for a reason because that trick is pretty cool. Show me a free room verb that can sound like the UAD Ocean Way does because it made me start using room verbs a lot more because it actually makes it sound like it was recorded in that room which is amazing. The closest thing I can do is Altiverb which ain't cheap either but I still prefer the Ocean Way.

EQ's I think it comes more down to workflow and EQ curves but there are certain EQ's that I use on certain things and that sound seems to just happen a little quicker for me because workflow is important for me. I'm a big fan of Pro-Q as said earlier, not because of the sound but because it just happens quickly and it's easy on the CPU.

I own a bunch of plugins and can give you examples...what would you like to hear?

[Judders]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I agree, show me how to do what the Softube Valley People Dynamite does with Reacomp and I'll eat my words. There are definitely plugins out there that are better on certain sources for sure. Given the Dynamite doesn't work on many things like ReaComp but it's one trick pony status is theirs for a reason because that trick is pretty cool. Show me a free room verb that can sound like the UAD Ocean Way does because it made me start using room verbs a lot more because it actually makes it sound like it was recorded in that room which is amazing. The closest thing I can do is Altiverb which ain't cheap either but I still prefer the Ocean Way.

EQ's I think it comes more down to workflow and EQ curves but there are certain EQ's that I use on certain things and that sound seems to just happen a little quicker for me because workflow is important for me. I'm a big fan of Pro-Q as said earlier, not because of the sound but because it just happens quickly and it's easy on the CPU.

I own a bunch of plugins and can give you examples...what would you like to hear?

I completely agree.

Sometimes it's sound, sometimes it's workflow (and that can include GUI).

[Judders]

Originally Posted by clepsydrae

I'm strenuously resisting the urge to go OT. :-)

We can start a new thread if you like

[clepsydrae]

Originally Posted by camerondye

I agree, show me how to do what the Softube Valley People Dynamite does with Reacomp and I'll eat my words. There are definitely plugins out there that are better on certain sources for sure. Given the Dynamite doesn't work on many things like ReaComp but it's one trick pony status is theirs for a reason because that trick is pretty cool. Show me a free room verb that can sound like the UAD Ocean Way does because it made me start using room verbs a lot more because it actually makes it sound like it was recorded in that room which is amazing. The closest thing I can do is Altiverb which ain't cheap either but I still prefer the Ocean Way.

EQ's I think it comes more down to workflow and EQ curves but there are certain EQ's that I use on certain things and that sound seems to just happen a little quicker for me because workflow is important for me. I'm a big fan of Pro-Q as said earlier, not because of the sound but because it just happens quickly and it's easy on the CPU.

I own a bunch of plugins and can give you examples...what would you like to hear?

Just to clarify, what I said was "The compresors and EQs and limiters all sound the same (or equivalent in quality) to my ears, so until my ears are good enough to care, I don't worry about those" -- so I'm not saying that they're all the same, just that for my (amateur) ears it's not a relevant difference. But I would nonetheless be interested to hear any examples of EQ that sound "flabby" or bad in any way compared to another EQ, presuming of course they are dialed in as close as they can be to each other... we'd need the original file, and the two EQ'd versions (and we can try to achieve the same compression with reaper plugins.)

I'd appreciate the same for compression... I'd anticipate it to be easier to show this in a compressor, especially special-purpose compressors. I made my statement because in using Waves RComp, Alloy 2, ReaComp, and a few free compressors, over about 12 years, I haven't noticed any important differences, but it's a more complicated DSP thing to do than simple EQ (AFAIK) so I'd be less surprised to hear a difference. At the least it would be fun to try to match things with ReaComp (and good practice).

I use Alloy 2's compressor (instead of ReaComp) because i own that plugin and it's easier to do it all in Alloy 2, and for the "just in case there is something I can't hear yet" factor.

And of course it should be said that this kind of thing is pretty hard to suss out from posted examples, since someone can always accuse the poster that they didn't dial it in properly, etc. But at least we can all try to eq or compress with the reaper plugins if we have the raw file.

Originally Posted by Judders

We can start a new thread if you like

I'll try to be brief. :-) As the author of ABX software, you can probably guess my philosophy: i haven't personally had the experience of an audio characteristic becoming obvious only after X days or X weeks of listening where i couldn't discern at all in a blind ABX test, and until I have, it just sounds like moving the goalposts to me. Maybe ghosts inhabit microphones and you have to find a mic with a friendly ghost in it, and ABX testing won't tell you what kind of ghost is in there; I can't disprove that, either, but I'm not going to worry about reports of such ghosts on forums when purchasing something. I don't mean to be disrespectful: I look forward to the day that I change my mind because audio would be a lot more interesting. For now, it makes sense to me to base my audio purchases on evidence: if I can't even discriminate which is which, never mind which is better, I'm going to spend my limited money on one of the countless things with a known, demonstrable yield (room treatment, better instruments, new drum heads, etc.)

[camerondye]

I agree that you shouldn't get something unless you can personally hear a difference in your listening environment 100%...if I can't hear a difference then there isn't one as far as I'm concerned. I am working on examples now and will post some stuff. I also agree that if it takes a week to think you can hear a difference then save your money. I am looking for recorded stuff I don't mind posting now.
cam

EDIT: I found some online mixing practice files that I will work from because I would like you to hear the solo and the effect once in a mix if possible so you might have a better chance of hearing the cummulative effect and how it mixes afterwards.

Edit #2: I won't be able to do this tonight and I'm working the next 2 days but I will get this worked in but my internet is being slow tonight getting the original files downloaded. I will start a new thread and make a link from this thread to it.

[J9mm]

That would be brilliant! Look forward to hearing it

Originally Posted by camerondye

I agree that you shouldn't get something unless you can personally hear a difference in your listening environment 100%...if I can't hear a difference then there isn't one as far as I'm concerned. I am working on examples now and will post some stuff. I also agree that if it takes a week to think you can hear a difference then save your money. I am looking for recorded stuff I don't mind posting now.
cam

EDIT: I found some online mixing practice files that I will work from because I would like you to hear the solo and the effect once in a mix if possible so you might have a better chance of hearing the cummulative effect and how it mixes afterwards.

Edit #2: I won't be able to do this tonight and I'm working the next 2 days but I will get this worked in but my internet is being slow tonight getting the original files downloaded. I will start a new thread and make a link from this thread to it.

[Judders]

Aw shame, both demos have expired. I could still post examples from other EQs, but those were a good comparison as they were supposed to be modelled on the same gear.

As for ABX, it's about implementation rather than the test protocol itself. It has taken me years to be able to hear some things, that learning can take a long time. Even though now I can assess EQs or whatever fairly quickly, it took a good 4 or 5 years to get there. Before then, I didn't know what to listen for. Consider how we all learnt to recognise mp3 distortion; I used to listen to low bit rate files without noticing it, now I find them actively unpleasant to listen to.

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by J9mm

Reading through this thread though and having played already with the Izoptope and Reaper plugs I am begining to wonder if I am chasing a magic bullet and hoping that "good" plugins would compensate for my own limitations, in knowledge, ears and my situation. Mainly, outside of myself I think I have two large problems that I will struggle to overcome, namely the room and lack of decent monitors.

I think you're on the right track. While others may argue that there are different ways to do things, there are also time-tested methods. If you want to continue recording and you want to improve your skills (as we all do, no matter what level), monitoring is key. With a good listening environment, you'll spend less time chasing your tail. It's still nice to listen in your car stereo, for example... just to get a "real world" point of view. But if you can trust what you are hearing coming out of your monitors, you're halfway there.

Originally Posted by J9mm

The main thing is I don't just want to throw money after a pile of software that really doesn't help me any. What would matter to me though is getting an improved work flow / time spent to results relationship, that could be worth some money.

Despite my strong language earlier in this thread ("plugins are hype"... did I really type that?? ), I think you would see some improvement in your work flow and time using a plugin suite, but not nearly as much improvement as a good listening environment.

Also, there are many, many wonderful plugins that are free or cheap. Here's what I would recommend to you:

- Limiter No6 (my favorite buss compressor/limiter, good for the Drum buss too, FREE): http://vladgsound.wordpress.com/plugins/limiter6/
- Stillwell Rocket (a great "character compressor" that I use on kick, snare and bass guitar, only $25 for a Reaper license): http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugin...et-compressor/
- Blockfish compressor (FREE with a cool sound when you push it): http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=5
- W1 Limiter (Waves L1 clone with a little bit of L2 thrown in, FREE): http://www.yohng.com/software/w1limit.html
- EasyQ (A FREE EQ that gets a lot of love around here... I haven't tried it yet): http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html
- Valhalla DSP (VintageVerb and Room are excellent and $50 each, and FreqEcho is a cool FREE delay): http://valhalladsp.com/
- Multiply (a great FREE specialty delay): http://acondigital.com/products/multiply/
- ADT (Automatic Double Tracking... I've been using this free one for years, but Waves just released one with a fancy gui that sounds pretty much the same): http://www.vacuumsound.de/plugins.html
- For De-essing, you can use ReaComp: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=53237
- Wish you had Waves MaxxBass? Use the JS plugin "Huge Booty" : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=4980

There's a thread for freeware VSTs that you should check out for more ideas.

The built-in plugins are great too. I use ReaComp for overheads a lot (sometimes you want a transparent compressor). ReaEQ is just as good as Waves Renaissance EQ. Check out Reaper's ReaVerb and use some of the free IR files that will give you some great reverbs and room sounds: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=130497

I'm not saying these are all equivalent to what Waves or Izotope offers, but I use them all and I'm not a hobbyist, I'm a paid freelancer who is also house engineer at a local studio. My clients like my work and I rely on most of these for my third party plugins.

[Swamp Ape]

Originally Posted by citizenkeith

- Stillwell Rocket (a great "character compressor" that I use on kick, snare and bass guitar, only $25 for a Reaper license): http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugin...et-compressor/

- Valhalla DSP (VintageVerb and Room are excellent and $50 each, and FreqEcho is a cool FREE delay): http://valhalladsp.com/

These are the only two I would consider buying at this juncture, J9mm. I also second a lot of citizenkeith's recommendations, and will add Bootsy's plugins as well:
http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/downloads/
Especially Ferric TDS, Density, BootEq, and and the two Thrillseeker comps.

Play with these before you drop a bunch of cash down the overpriced boutique plig-in hole.