Amp Sim Setup

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Btw, I took a blues junior to an amp tech once (he worked on mostly classic amps), and he booed me a little - told me to bring a real amp next time.

That's cuz I didn't tweak it for you before you took it like I did mine. Buddy of mine played guitar on tour for Jimmy Buffet for two world tours with it, all his touring buddies now have Blues Jrs. That guy should be careful with those no true Scotsman fallacies.

[edkilp]

I think the amp sim market was also designed to cater to a large number of home recording dudes who not only can't afford an arsenal of classic amps, but also don't have the luxury of being able to crank these classic amps to the levels required to hit those sweet spots. At any rate, amp sims are here to stay, but is there a point where they've been taken as far as they can go?

I don't own any tube amps now, but anyone who does or has knows that the beauty of a real tube amp is the way it feels and responds to the subtle nuances that every individual plays with. That's why Eddie Van Halen will still sound like Eddie Van Halen regardless of the amp he's playing through. Also explains a bit why I won't sound like Eddie Van Halen even if I was playing his guitar through his amp.

The sims can get pretty close tone-wise, but you would have to find a way to simulate an individual's touch and playing characteristics to really take it to the next level.

When I'm setting up my guitar sound with simulated amps and cabs, I just try to find a tone that sounds awesome to me. I have never had any success trying to get it to sound just like a particular amp. For me, that's a recipe for frustration.

[karbomusic]

I had one head called 'The Musician' in about '73.

There was one cool thing about the Musician. The 6 band EQ (was it 8 or 6? I forget) was inline and passive IIRC. Meaning if you turned all 6 down, zero volume. What was cool about that is you could make the EQ flat but every one on 1 allowing you to crank it and change the sound some. Still wasn't that great though.

When I'm setting up my guitar sound with simulated amps and cabs, I just try to find a tone that sounds awesome to me. I have never had any success trying to get it to sound just like a particular amp. For me, that's a recipe for frustration.

Best advice ever! Really. Don't try to be someone else, you'll lose all the magic trying.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by edkilp

When I'm setting up my guitar sound with simulated amps and cabs, I just try to find a tone that sounds awesome to me. I have never had any success trying to get it to sound just like a particular amp. For me, that's a recipe for frustration.

It can also be a method for honing in on what you hear wrong with an amp sim sound, maybe figuring out what needs to be changed.

[The Telenator]

SIX EQ knobs.

Damn thing -- I'd blow out one of the eight or so power transistors plainly attached to the back on the outside, then that would put much more load on the remaining ... which would mean I'd soon blow another if not taken to the shop THAT DAY.

The 6X12 cabs standard with these had $25 cheapies in them. One blew per week. I bought mine with a 2X15 cab and horn (yeah, a horn -- we were idiots back then), so mine never blew. But my rhythm player blew a 12 every week.

Did you know that the first commercial Peaveys were printed on CARDBOARD circuit board and actually used to catch fire? We have come so far in the world of guitar tech, have we not?

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Did you know that the first commercial Peaveys were printed on CARDBOARD circuit board and actually used to catch fire? We have come so far in the world of guitar tech, have we not?

Brings back memories. My first "rig" was a Kustom 4 channel mixer on a 2x12 PA cab + horn using a combo cassette/8track deck (yes it recorded to 8-track carts) as the distortion box. Since I could record enable/pause and pass signal, I'd plug my guitar into the recording input and max the gain and send the pitiful remains of that signal into the Kustom. Fun times!

[The Telenator]

edkilp: "At any rate, amp sims are here to stay, but is there a point where they've been taken as far as they can go?"


Oh no! Great breakthroughs ahead. And, gee, it all started with the very first good modeling of the ECC33 (12AX7). Schuffham made a breakthrough when he began modeling tranny / amp SAG. That was something no sims could do, a big reason they sounded so stiff and had zero pick dynamics or 'feel', etc.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by edkilp

anyone who does or has knows that the beauty of a real tube amp is the way it feels and responds to the subtle nuances that every individual plays with.

very true, and this is probably related to your higher gain version sounding a bit more convincing (nice riff, btw). - it's an acquired taste, we are used to hearing high gain rhythms with machine-like precision (because the artists want to have it that way, often doubled, quadrupled etc) - this goes well with amp sims not translating every nuance.
On the low gain front however, players take pride in letting their grooves breathe, (sub-)consciously articulating every note a bit different - here is an area where most amp sims are still struggling.a lot.
Does that make any sense ?
Rhino

[The Telenator]

djent, djent, djent

[ProfRhino]

And regarding volume, you can make almost clean notes sustain and feed back beautifully with a fine amp at high volume, Duane Allman or Dickey Betts come to mind - no way you'll ever get there at bedroom level.
It's the moved air interacting with your string vabration, not an electronical phenomenon.
here ymmnv ,
Rhino

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

And regarding volume, you can make almost clean notes sustain and feed back beautifully with a fine amp at high volume, Duane Allman or Dickey Betts come to mind - no way you'll ever get there at bedroom level.
It's the moved air interacting with your string vabration, not an electronical phenomenon.
here ymmnv ,
Rhino

I don't need it very loud to accomplish, for sure not 50 watts loud but watts is terrible measure of loudness since it is a measure of heat dissipation. Bedroom levels is a very broad statement to me I cant do it with someone sleeping in the next room but my guitar can do quite well not hugely cranked.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

And regarding volume, you can make almost clean notes sustain and feed back beautifully with a fine amp at high volume, Duane Allman or Dickey Betts come to mind - no way you'll ever get there at bedroom level.
It's the moved air interacting with your string vabration, not an electronical phenomenon.
here ymmnv ,
Rhino

TWO ways to fake that, both of which can be added to the signal chain of an amp sim setup: a pedal called 'Feedbacker' and one called 'Runaway'. Each about $150 US, I think.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

TWO ways to fake that, both of which can be added to the signal chain of an amp sim setup: a pedal called 'Feedbacker' and one called 'Runaway'. Each about $150 US, I think.

yes, and Sustainiac and Softube Acoustic Feedback - but all these are like a caricature of the real thing, great for experrimental stuff, no substitute for real feedback imho.
ymmv,
Rhino

[Jeffsounds]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

It's the moved air interacting with your string vabration, not an electronical phenomenon.
here ymmnv ,
Rhino

Just curious... how does the moved air interact with the string vibrations when the amp and speaker are 20 feet behind you and you are facing away from it?

"You" being a collective here...

[edkilp]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

- here is an area where most amp sims are still struggling.a lot.
Does that make any sense ?
Rhino

It makes perfect sense. That's kinda what I was saying before. The tone can get close, but the nuances and subtle elements that every individual player adds or subtracts is something that can't be simulated. At least not yet.

From what I see and hear from most (not all) of the amp sims out there, getting that face-melting, turn-your-intestines-to-jelly,tune-down-to-a-C sound is relatively easy. Just look around on YouTube and you'll see hundreds of videos demonstrating that ultra heavy guitar tone, and for the most part, it's tighter than two coats of paint.

I personally don't want that sound, so I'm more into coming up with more traditional, Fender twin, Marshall type sounds. But then again, if it fits the tune I'm working on, I guess I don't really care what it sounds close to. I mean, I'd hate to be unveiling my latest masterpiece to a group of friends, only to have them gloss over the arrangement and obvious songwriting mastery (of course!), just to notice that my guitar kinda sorta sounds like it was played through somewhat of a Marshall-sounding amp.

Maybe we all labor over this crap more than we should. I dunno.

[The Telenator]

Don't know about the Feedbacker or others just mentioned, but the Runaway sounds rather accurate and true to the cause. Of course, nothing is going to sound quite like you in front of huge amp stacks with sound pressure of 120dB++ and playing and holding notes.

But then, how often do you actually do this, and how's your hearing doing these days? Playing the coliseums are we?

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

Just curious... how does the moved air interact with the string vibrations when the amp and speaker are 20 feet behind you and you are facing away from it?

"You" being a collective here...

It's sound and you can't have sound without moving air. So think of the movements as vibrations or propagations of air pressure like Croquet using air molecules. IOW, if your ears can hear it, so can the strings. I actually have a hard time keeping my rig from feeding back, the good kind of feedback that is.

[The Telenator]

Watch peeps like Hendrix in his concert footage -- oh, particularly Eric Johnson Live at Austin City Limits. Eric has great control over length and intensity of feedback by facing guitar right up close to the speaker cones. You'll see.

Of course, you can get runaway feedback at other times and in other (sometimes) sort of crazy predicaments, but to keep it musical you have to always be conscious of your playing position in regard to your speaker cabs. See the videos above. Cheers. (And have fun experimenting!)

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

Just curious... how does the moved air interact with the string vibrations when the amp and speaker are 20 feet behind you and you are facing away from it?

Half stack, full stack, wall of stacks ...
But seriously, it's shocking how much more firepower you need as the stages get bigger, even worse if you need clean tones too.
Sure, nowadays decent monitoring is the norm on bigger gigs, in-ear is not for everyone, and I personally hate being at the mercy of a monitor guy I don't know and trust.
Anybody remember the monitoring debacle at Roger Waters' The Wall in Berlin ? If it happens in that league ...
but it gets OT, sorry,
Rhino

[rcl]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

very true, and this is probably related to your higher gain version sounding a bit more convincing (nice riff, btw). - it's an acquired taste, we are used to hearing high gain rhythms with machine-like precision (because the artists want to have it that way, often doubled, quadrupled etc) - this goes well with amp sims not translating every nuance.
On the low gain front however, players take pride in letting their grooves breathe, (sub-)consciously articulating every note a bit different - here is an area where most amp sims are still struggling.a lot.
Does that make any sense ?
Rhino

Well said....

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Don't know about the Feedbacker or others just mentioned, but the Runaway sounds rather accurate and true to the cause. Of course, nothing is going to sound quite like you in front of huge amp stacks with sound pressure of 120dB++ and playing and holding notes.

But then, how often do you actually do this, and how's your hearing doing these days? Playing the coliseums are we?

Been there a few times, don't miss it.
My cabs are in a separate soundproof room, so amp volume is not a concern 24/7. When I need feedback, most of the time I get by with cranking the monitors, only while tracking that certain part.
Hearing's still fine, thank you.
A great old trick is to record a big cleanish amp while having a cranked little combo blasting at you in the control room (not recorded !), tons of sustain, clean big sound.
Works great with sims too, record overdriven and use a cleaner tone in the mix (or layer it).
ymmv,
Rhino

[The Telenator]

"... in-ear is not for everyone, and I personally hate being at the mercy of a monitor guy I don't know and trust."

Hate A

Worry constantly about B

[The Telenator]

"My cabs are in a separate soundproof room, so amp volume is not a concern 24/7. When I need feedback, most of the time I get by with cranking the monitors, only while tracking that certain part."

Most of our guitar players here do not have this luxury. Many are searching for the small bedroom solution.

"Works great with sims too, record overdriven and use a cleaner tone in the mix (or layer it)."

I just made a note to remind myself of this. I got guitar tracks coming up, first time I'll be doing serious work with S-Gear, so I'll need to do some experimenting.

[karbomusic]

Eric has great control over length and intensity of feedback by facing guitar right up close to the speaker cones

That's probably his fuzz face. God do I love those things now. I didn't know that until I built one correctly to the proper specs. It isn't a fizz box, its a friggin tone machine with blistering wooly tones and feedback with the guitar at 10 and nice rock and roll crunch at 8 and chimey edgy clean at 4 and all of them have sustain. When you decrease volume on the guitar you get more highs instead of rolling off. F'ing a amazing that I missed what these should sound like all these years then again... Best I can tell, you'll simply not find that off the shelf because no one takes the expense of time to tweak it out right and match the trannies. There are a few but not many and a good one is golden.

I just finished the "finish" on the box for one I'm building for a buddy now, wiring it up as we speak, tweaking her out after that, details at 11...

[The Telenator]

Is it a silicon? Looks like fun.

[karbomusic]

A great old trick is to record a big cleanish amp while having a cranked little combo blasting at you in the control room (not recorded !), tons of sustain, clean big sound

Yes that does work, part of the problem with sims is moving the right air with a full range monitor, you need mids, and plenty of them. You can take your idea a step further and create something to attach to the guitar with the cone removed allowing even lower volumes. Someone did that already but I forget who. It works though quite well IIRC.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Is it a silicon? Looks like fun.

I do both but this one is Germanium, took a couple of days measuring to find the right combo but its a really good friend so I wanted to hook him up with a one off. I've already warned him that too cold or too hot, it's gonna puke but I have four on my pedal board and haven't had a problem, then again I haven't had it in full sun or really cold gigs yet either. I have an Si for backup but the Ge always have a slightly softer clip.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

"My cabs are in a separate soundproof room, so amp volume is not a concern 24/7. When I need feedback, most of the time I get by with cranking the monitors, only while tracking that certain part."
Most of our guitar players here do not have this luxury. Many are searching for the small bedroom solution..

Same here for most of my life, we had to rent noise-tolerant rooms for rehearsing and recording, huge pita and expensive.
When I had the chance to move to a small house in the back of nowhere, my main priority was getting the guitar- and recording department right.
If you have two decent free basement rooms it's only a matter of clever planning, with lots of DIY the cost is far less than a used small car, not too bad considering the benefits imho.
Personally I tend to work from the top down, check how the pros do things, learn how my favorite tones were originally created, and try to integrate as much as possible (and affordable) of the concepts that speak to me into my own little workflow and winging the rest, been learning a lot that way.
So I think discussing the workflow with real hardware can be very relevant for sim workflow, too.
ymmv,
Rhino

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

Of course, you can get runaway feedback at other times and in other (sometimes) sort of crazy predicaments, but to keep it musical you have to always be conscious of your playing position in regard to your speaker cabs. See the videos above. Cheers. (And have fun experimenting!)

Totally.
I've seen Santana mark the sweet spots on stage with gaffa tape ...

[morgon]

Only recently ive again experimented with all itb gtr fx, leaving out analogue stomp pedals.

The link is a section from my new record [sans vox] [wip] and uses Kuassa for RGs, Gtr Rig 5 for leads.

Main lead kicks in at 0.35 with sharper eq to distinguish from earlier ld parts

Im not making any claims one way or another, it seems acceptable to me even though I don't dispute keen ears can hear some fizz, rigidity or whatever.

I might post this on other ampsim thread as well as some have asked my opinion a couple weeks back on another thread. [yo Tod]

[example is not mixed/mastered + some clipping]

Edit] and yes Randy Rhoads is major influence

https://app.box.com/s/ay2sbv5e3va1ek56c19q

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

That's cuz I didn't tweak it for you before you took it like I did mine. Buddy of mine played guitar on tour for Jimmy Buffet for two world tours with it, all his touring buddies now have Blues Jrs. That guy should be careful with those no true Scotsman fallacies.

Nah, mine was tweaked (circuit , speaker swapped), and the circuit was further tweaked by that tech. Btw, that amp sounded gorgeous for slide guitar, but I'm not a slide player. An '18 watt' circuit sounds much better to my ears.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by The Telenator

[I]"Works great with sims too, record overdriven and use a cleaner tone in the mix (or layer it)."

I just made a note to remind myself of this. I got guitar tracks coming up, first time I'll be doing serious work with S-Gear, so I'll need to do some experimenting.

I discovered using monitors for getting feedback on my own, but I never thought of cranking the gain for recording, then dialing it back. Will have to try that one.

[Tony-N]

Originally Posted by AudioWonderland

Replacing LeCab with NadIR seems to have solved the crashing issues.

The Freebee Marshall cab sims from Redwires is decent enough.

The amps sims I have so far are very much metal beasts... The 5150/6505 sims are probably the best of those. I could make those work if I had to. The LePou stuff just didn't fit my ear as well. All of the sims run "brighter" than the amp sounds I usually record. Thats probably just my own quirk though

I tried the various "head" series of sims. The meathead specifically was suggested. Admittedly I didn't spend a lot of time with them and probably don't have the correct amp sim for them but they all left me with the first impression of "hell no"

I will admit to the sim stuff being better than I expected for the higher gain stuff at least. I probably could work with these if needed. I still prefer to mic my own. Just an old school hard head I suppose.

The search continues...

Did you try the HyBrit head with Plexi setting and some of the SM57's cab IR's?

[Dannii]

Nobody interested in my Vox AC30 Amplug examples?

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Nobody interested in my Vox AC30 Amplug examples?

Sorry Dave, must've overlooked that post ...
Very well done and played, great arrangements and the guitars suit the songs just fine. A bit tough to judge that amplug in general though by your clips as the guitars are loaded with FX (and rightfully so).
Not "vs" the amplug, but along similar lines - Joyo have a line of Sansamp clones which are quite good @ € 30 a piece, I have the Vox and Fender ones myself and you can get some pretty amplike tones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwoTIRPkfhE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFy-eA-JY3A
ymmv,
Rhino

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

Sorry Dave, must've overlooked that post ...
Very well done and played, great arrangements and the guitars suit the songs just fine. A bit tough to judge that amplug in general though by your clips as the guitars are loaded with FX (and rightfully so).
Not "vs" the amplug, but along similar lines - Joyo have a line of Sansamp clones which are quite good @ € 30 a piece, I have the Vox and Fender ones myself and you can get some pretty amplike tones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwoTIRPkfhE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFy-eA-JY3A
ymmv,
Rhino

I agree, tough to judge. I often need to hear an amp/amp sim in such a way that I would use it. For example, a low-gain amp sim might sound ok when the player isn't digging in, but that is not how I play.

I hear hard clipping from those pedals, same as for software amp sims.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

Sorry Dave, must've overlooked that post ...
Very well done and played, great arrangements and the guitars suit the songs just fine. A bit tough to judge that amplug in general though by your clips as the guitars are loaded with FX (and rightfully so).
Not "vs" the amplug, but along similar lines - Joyo have a line of Sansamp clones which are quite good @ € 30 a piece, I have the Vox and Fender ones myself and you can get some pretty amplike tones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwoTIRPkfhE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFy-eA-JY3A
ymmv,
Rhino

Fair call about judging the tone in the mix. I might see if I can get some time to put together something raw from the Amplugs. I have quite a bit happening over the next few days though so bear with me.
Thanks for the compliments on the tracks though.

Do you have any mp3 demo's of those Joyo devices? I'm on very limited data allowance at the moment (2GB per month) so YouTube is out for me.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

Fair call about judging the tone in the mix. I might see if I can get some time to put together something raw from the Amplugs. I have quite a bit happening over the next few days though so bear with me.
Thanks for the compliments on the tracks though.

Do you have any mp3 demo's of those Joyo devices? I'm on very limited data allowance at the moment (2GB per month) so YouTube is out for me.

sorry, no demos atm - Reaper configuration, investigation and learning taking up all my time right now, I won't complain, it's worth the effort.
but I can tell you so much, one clip is a blind test between the Joyo and a mic'ed DRRI - I guessed wrong myself, they are so close ...
The Vox style is equally good, the others are ok at least.
At roughly €30 a no-brainer imho, over here we have 30 days money back for mail orders anyway, don't know about you.
cheers,
Rhino

[The Telenator]

Thanks for including the JamVOX software in this discussion. In all this time of using amp sims I have somehow completely overlooked this. In fact, this is the very first mention I've seen of this product!

[rcl]

Originally Posted by Tony-N

Did you try the HyBrit head with Plexi setting and some of the SM57's cab IR's?

And???????