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06-23-2014, 05:07 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Reverb sounding like Lexicon?
Hi,
Back in the days, when Lexicon suddenly made their famous reverbs accessible to a larger public by releasing the relatively inexpensive LXP 1 and LXP 5, I bought them both. Man, I was sold. They sounded fantastic!
Now I wonder, what VSTs (if any) sound at least in the ball park?
Will any of the IR files for ReaVerb (discussed in another thread) bring me close? Which ones, in that case?
Sorry if this has been asked before.
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06-23-2014, 05:15 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 592
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06-23-2014, 05:23 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Hi,
Back in the days, when Lexicon suddenly made their famous reverbs accessible to a larger public by releasing the relatively inexpensive LXP 1 and LXP 5, I bought them both. Man, I was sold. They sounded fantastic!
Now I wonder, what VSTs (if any) sound at least in the ball park?
Will any of the IR files for ReaVerb (discussed in another thread) bring me close? Which ones, in that case?
Sorry if this has been asked before.
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Best time to ask this question!! There are excellent soft reverbs around these days that can easily replace your Lex's.
My faves are the Exponential reverbs by the guy that coded the Lex verbs from the 960 on up to the PCM native bundle.They sound like Lexicon should sound in the 2000's and are very powerful.
http://www.exponentialaudio.com/
Speaking of the PCM Bundle!! Coded by the same guy that owns Exponential and they are the EXACT algos from the PCM 96. A bit of a pia is that all the algos are separate verbs so switching kind of sucks. Excellent sounding verbs.
http://www.lexiconpro.com/en/product...plug-in-bundle
My second fave verbs are from Valhalla.ValhallaVintageVerb. These are algos inspired by the Lexicon 224/224xl/60/70/300 and 480. Sounds big and lush like the Lex but more modern. again excellent verb and it's only $50 with NO drop in sound quality.
http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallavintageverb
Lastly an exact recreation of the 480L. A bit finicky but it sounds frikkin amazing! Fat thick and dense giving a very definite sense of space.Latest update fixed crashes I was getting. The dev is very unresponsive but the product is being supported. If you want an exact 480L, this is the plug!
http://www.relab.dk/lx480_complete.html
Also for non Lex sound Exponential PhoenixVerb is a truly special reverb. It sounds like air...
And ValhallaRoom is a very distinctive clean reverb that compliments a Lex sound nicely.
Amazing times for verb in the box!! Have fun.
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06-23-2014, 05:39 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Wow, thanks for fast replies!
So, there are a few to choose from. Most of them cost several hundred dollars (which they absolutely might be worth).
Have anyone here tested Lexicons simplest variant? MXP Native Verb
http://www.lexiconpro.com/en-US/prod...-native-reverb (looks interesting).
I am also curious if there are ANY budget alternatives that come close. (I will definitely chack out Valhalla).
Thx
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06-23-2014, 05:48 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Wow, thanks for fast replies!
So, there are a few to choose from. Most of them cost several hundred dollars (which they absolutely might be worth).
Have anyone here tested Lexicons simplest variant? MXP Native Verb
http://www.lexiconpro.com/en-US/prod...-native-reverb (looks interesting).
I am also curious if there are ANY budget alternatives that come close. (I will definitely chack out Valhalla).
Thx
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Valhalla verbs are an incredible deal. IMO they smoke the MPX. They absolutely sound as good as the more expensive offerings BUT... are not as editable. Now that shouldn`t be a big deal because literally you call up a preset, tweak the decay and whatever else and your done.
Personally I like more control so the Exponential verbs are my ticket most of the time, but the Valhalla verbs are killer as well.
Also the Expo verbs blend easier to my ears than the VVV.
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06-23-2014, 05:52 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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It`s interesting to note that Lex MPX,PCM bundle and Exponential verbs are by the same guy!!
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06-23-2014, 06:29 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Wow, thanks for fast replies!
So, there are a few to choose from. Most of them cost several hundred dollars (which they absolutely might be worth).
Have anyone here tested Lexicons simplest variant? MXP Native Verb
http://www.lexiconpro.com/en-US/prod...-native-reverb (looks interesting).
I am also curious if there are ANY budget alternatives that come close. (I will definitely chack out Valhalla).
Thx
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Valhalla verbs are amazing. I am quite a reverb junky, own actual stand alone spring unit for example, but I am basically down to a few IRs, One spring verb plugin, and Vahalla Vintage only now.
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06-23-2014, 06:53 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildschwein
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I'm not having much success with EpicVerb. To me, it sounds far from what I wish for (but, hey, it's free).
I use Scarlet a lot, but I'm not really happy with that either (although I like it much better than Epicverb).
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06-23-2014, 06:59 AM
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#10
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Hi,
Back in the days, when Lexicon suddenly made their famous reverbs accessible to a larger public by releasing the relatively inexpensive LXP 1 and LXP 5, I bought them both. Man, I was sold. They sounded fantastic!
Now I wonder, what VSTs (if any) sound at least in the ball park?
Will any of the IR files for ReaVerb (discussed in another thread) bring me close? Which ones, in that case?
Sorry if this has been asked before.
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I got curious and Googled "Lexicon IR" and "Lexicon IR library", and it looks like you might find IR's, which you could use in ReaVerb.
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06-23-2014, 07:00 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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The only criticism I see about Valhalla is that its tail is less smooth than the more expensive plugs. Any comments?
Also, I'm fuzzy about what IRs really are. I understand they use a wave file (a sample, basically) to generate the reverb. But I fail to grasp how a sampled sound of some (sound in some) room can be used to generate reverb from OTHER sounds. Fill me in? (Or perhaps this should be a separate thread?)
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06-23-2014, 07:06 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 387
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I'll second (or third, or fourth, or whatever it is now )Valhalla Vintage Verb.
Also, there used to be a few sites that hosted impulse responses from these various hardware units, including the Lexicons. Sites like Noisevault.com and echochamber, but they seem to not be hosting the impulses at the moment. You might be able to find them with a bit of Googleing.
You could also check out the free Bricasti impulses over at samplicity. The Bricasti is the king of reverb units these days.
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06-23-2014, 07:13 AM
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#13
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
The only criticism I see about Valhalla is that its tail is less smooth than the more expensive plugs. Any comments?
Also, I'm fuzzy about what IRs really are. I understand they use a wave file (a sample, basically) to generate the reverb. But I fail to grasp how a sampled sound of some (sound in some) room can be used to generate reverb from OTHER sounds. Fill me in? (Or perhaps this should be a separate thread?)
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You can think of your music, before you add reverb to it, as a sequence of clicks, 44,100 clicks per second, each at a different volume. That's all there is to any digital signal.
To make an IR of a real room, you put a speaker in that room and have the speaker play one single click, and you use a mic to record the results. Those results are the IR. When processing your music with convolution, you take each click from your music, and replace it with the IR, scale according to the volume of the click you're processing. It's not like your adding the IR to your music; it's much more like you're multiplying your music by the IR.
Another way to look it is, convolution is like adding lots and lots of delayed versions of your music to your original dry track. The IR contains the info for how loud each delayed version should be.
In theory, convolution can give you a perfect simulation of a real space. In practice, it sounds very convincing to me.
You can make an IR from a Lexicon instead of from a real room, by running a single click through Lexicon and recording the result as an IR. Apparently, people have done this.
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06-23-2014, 07:55 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Thank you, AmmoniumNitrate! Loved your response.
However, although I understood your reasoning, I'm still fuzzy about the terms IR, convolution etc. Is a unit either or? Or do the terms refer to the same thing?
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06-23-2014, 08:12 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Thank you, AmmoniumNitrate! Loved your response.
However, although I understood your reasoning, I'm still fuzzy about the terms IR, convolution etc. Is a unit either or? Or do the terms refer to the same thing?
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An impulse response (IR) is a recording of something (a room, a speaker, a hardware reverb, etc.).
Convolution is the process of applying the information from one source (the IR) to another source (the track in your DAW). It imparts the qualities of the IR onto the original information in the track, leaving you with a combination of the two.
So a plugin designed to add reverb with IRs is called a convolution reverb and requires the IR files in order to work. Without the IR, it will simply add nothing to the track, leaving that track as it was without the plugin.
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06-23-2014, 08:14 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
The only criticism I see about Valhalla is that its tail is less smooth than the more expensive plugs. Any comments?
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Hi Cemark, to me the tails sound very smooth with VintageVerb, smoother than the LexPCM bundle,
but then what is smooth for you?
For me a smooth tail is one that has deep resolution ( doesn't fall off abruptly at the end, but transitions to silence very smoothly : VVV : check ), doesn't ring like most cheap/free verbs ( VVV : check / and sorry Reaper but ( edit = ) Reaverbate is one of the biggest area where there is room for improvement vs other daws that all have significantly better stock reverbs, perhaps partnering up with some coding gurus like ValhallaDSP's extraordinaire Sean Costello could be an awesome move....yeahyeah, I know, I am a Valhalla-fanboy, sue me ) ...back to smooth tail : a tail that doesn't exhibit any nasty artefacts and sounds almost natural ( VVV : check ) ( edit : and one that sounds dare I say warm and liquid at the same time ? to me the PCM bundle sounds way too clean, but that is my taste )
To my ears is the single greatest bang for buck reverb that you could find, here any audio guy passing by and hearing it wants to use it.
The small ambiences sound awesome as do the loooong decay old Lexicon style, the long post by Henge provides you a great overview and comparison.
The only thing lacking in VVV : cleaner, modern, realistic verbs => completed by ValhallaRoom
Although after having heard the Exponential Audio Phoenix, that one has the upperhand regarding realistic " invisible " reverb, but then the price is also a category up
Regards
Nico
Last edited by Jazzooka; 06-24-2014 at 12:53 AM.
Reason: spelling + comments pertain to Reaverbate and not Reaverb
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06-23-2014, 08:31 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Man, I love this forum!
Great atmosphere, helpful people.
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06-23-2014, 08:58 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 221
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+1 super nice forum
it's refreshing and inspiring!
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06-23-2014, 09:10 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
The only criticism I see about Valhalla is that its tail is less smooth than the more expensive plugs. Any comments?
Also, I'm fuzzy about what IRs really are. I understand they use a wave file (a sample, basically) to generate the reverb. But I fail to grasp how a sampled sound of some (sound in some) room can be used to generate reverb from OTHER sounds. Fill me in? (Or perhaps this should be a separate thread?)
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Noooo, the VVV tails a just as smooth as any high end vst imo.Just different sounding as they're based on Lex's earlier reverbs.
One thing about convo reverb is that IF it has modulation it's sampled modulation. Algo reverbs allow you to tailor the modulation WITHIN the reverb structure where the modulation takes place. Some convo reverbs, like Liquidsonics Reverberate, let you modulate a ton of stuff to give the impulse a more algo like movement.
Personally I've always preferred algorithmic reverbs.
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06-23-2014, 09:20 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Try them out. They can all be demo'ed.
Exponential Audio, Valhalla DSP, 2CAudio and Relab. Probably more out there.
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06-23-2014, 10:03 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Central US
Posts: 467
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The Lexicon IR files that sound like a Lexicon
Greg Norman's 480L samples are available here (edit: for free!) in a zip file:
http://www.housecallfm.com/download-...l-lexicon-480l
Last edited by ginormous; 06-23-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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06-23-2014, 10:06 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henge1
Noooo, the VVV tails a just as smooth as any high end vst imo.Just different sounding as they're based on Lex's earlier reverbs.
One thing about convo reverb is that IF it has modulation it's sampled modulation. Algo reverbs allow you to tailor the modulation WITHIN the reverb structure where the modulation takes place. Some convo reverbs, like Liquidsonics Reverberate, let you modulate a ton of stuff to give the impulse a more algo like movement.
Personally I've always preferred algorithmic reverbs.
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Hi Henge, you are right with the modulation and convolution reverbs : here have used Altiverb as main verb during 3 years as it does it's thing very well, then, out of sheer curiosity I downloaded the VVV demo : before I could hear the first demo-limitation appearing I'd already hit that "buy" button....
That modulation within the algorithmic reverbs makes a huuuuge difference
However : running an Altiverb through an Eventide 3500Dfx with for example a stereo-delayed slow phaser algorithm set to anywhere between dry/wet balance breathes some new life in pure convolution verbs....
not really a modulation from within, more of a parallel-ish modulation, but you get the picture
in daw you can try with Echoboy & PhaseMistress, or add any modulated chorus/spatial stuff like Boss, DimensionD, Microshift.
Then you can try stereo-chorussed predelay before convolution then a parallel phaser/flanger....so many possibilities nowadays!
regards
Nico
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06-23-2014, 10:17 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzooka
Hi Henge, you are right with the modulation and convolution reverbs : here have used Altiverb as main verb during 3 years as it does it's thing very well, then, out of sheer curiosity I downloaded the VVV demo : before I could hear the first demo-limitation appearing I'd already hit that "buy" button....
That modulation within the algorithmic reverbs makes a huuuuge difference
However : running an Altiverb through an Eventide 3500Dfx with for example a stereo-delayed slow phaser algorithm set to anywhere between dry/wet balance breathes some new life in pure convolution verbs....
not really a modulation from within, more of a parallel-ish modulation, but you get the picture
in daw you can try with Echoboy & PhaseMistress, or add any modulated chorus/spatial stuff like Boss, DimensionD, Microshift.
Then you can try stereo-chorussed predelay before convolution then a parallel phaser/flanger....so many possibilities nowadays!
regards
Nico
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Excellent post!! we have so much power at our finger tips these days that we can achieve some wild spaces.
Nico have you tried Valhalla Ubermod?
http://www.valhalladsp.com/valhallaubermod
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06-23-2014, 10:42 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henge1;1370658
Nico have you tried Valhalla Ubermod?
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naaa Henge, there is no trying out Valhalla stuff for me because although I don't need another modulation plugin from the moment I will fire up a few presets I will loose control over the mouse and keyboard and buy it instantly or do I need another mod plugin? I don't know! it looks so good though...and knowing Sean's work it must be great aaarggghh my credit card is burning in my wallet I am Valhalladdicted...I will need to drench my lust in vvv 28 seconds lush tails to get my breathing back to normal
mmmmaybe I'll just try it. in a few months. just a minute or two. you know?
otoh it is only 49$...............grrrrrrr.......forums with nice people talking about audio tools...is like taking a recovering bottlehugger to the distillery
seriously though : to the op : modulation me thinks is a big part of classic Lexicon sound, as is noise and reduced bit depth : so ( noisy, dirty ) modulation plugins + convolution ( or any verb ) + more modulation might get you real close to the Lexicon style, but with a different sonic sig....worth exploring if you ask me
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06-23-2014, 11:08 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginormous
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+1! still one of my fav IR's, via ReaVerb plugin of course
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06-23-2014, 11:18 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzooka
naaa Henge, there is no trying out Valhalla stuff for me because although I don't need another modulation plugin from the moment I will fire up a few presets I will loose control over the mouse and keyboard and buy it instantly or do I need another mod plugin? I don't know! it looks so good though...and knowing Sean's work it must be great aaarggghh my credit card is burning in my wallet I am Valhalladdicted...I will need to drench my lust in vvv 28 seconds lush tails to get my breathing back to normal
mmmmaybe I'll just try it. in a few months. just a minute or two. you know?
otoh it is only 49$...............grrrrrrr.......forums with nice people talking about audio tools...is like taking a recovering bottlehugger to the distillery
seriously though : to the op : modulation me thinks is a big part of classic Lexicon sound, as is noise and reduced bit depth : so ( noisy, dirty ) modulation plugins + convolution ( or any verb ) + more modulation might get you real close to the Lexicon style, but with a different sonic sig....worth exploring if you ask me
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Ha! If you are a true verb junkie, like myself, you have to check out the over modulated verbs in Ubermod. They are like modulated Lexicons on steroids. Not right for most stuff but when they work...watch out! Chorused space for days...;-)
Agreed that you could use mod plugs + convolution to get some great sounds.
Or like you say Echoboy into Microshift sounds huge.
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06-23-2014, 11:19 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Central US
Posts: 467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crimsonmerry
+1! still one of my fav IR's, via ReaVerb plugin of course
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They're free! No buyer's remorse; no more "I shouldn't have done that."
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06-23-2014, 11:24 AM
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#28
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmmoniumNitrate
I got curious and Googled "Lexicon IR" and "Lexicon IR library", and it looks like you might find IR's, which you could use in ReaVerb.
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cemark, I might have misled you here. Since Lexicon is doing modulation, which I hadn't considered, you might not get a full simulation from an IR. Convolution can't simulate modulation. But an IR of Lexicon still would give you Lexicon's coloration, and getting good reviews from others who've tried it.
Last edited by AmmoniumNitrate; 06-23-2014 at 11:54 AM.
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06-23-2014, 12:33 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drtedtan
I'll second (or third, or fourth, or whatever it is now )Valhalla Vintage Verb.
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i'll throw my $.02 in, too. another vote for this well-made, inexpensive verb. truly one of the best plugin deals out there.
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06-23-2014, 01:05 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginormous
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Anyone know how to get it to work on Win 7? (Instructions for Mac only).
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06-23-2014, 01:15 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: On the move, that way -->
Posts: 235
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Many good reverbs out there...
My main "go to" reverb right now is Breverb2
www.overloud.com
Also there is IQ-Reverb from Hofa
www.hofa.de
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06-23-2014, 01:44 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemark
Anyone know how to get it to work on Win 7? (Instructions for Mac only).
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That's my question, too. He says: "you WILL need an impulse response player plug-in"--are there any free ones that work with Reaper? I assume that I can't fire up, say, the LePou IR player that I use for speaker IRs.
__________________
Musica bona est agmen interruptionum electarum diligenter in silentio.
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06-23-2014, 02:09 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonDodd
That's my question, too. He says: "you WILL need an impulse response player plug-in"--are there any free ones that work with Reaper? I assume that I can't fire up, say, the LePou IR player that I use for speaker IRs.
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I'mnot aat my computer right now but you can load impulse responses right in Reapers own ReaVerb. I believe there is a load IR tab or somethingrright in the window.
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06-23-2014, 02:15 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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Just dished out the 50 bucks for VVV. It sounds great.
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06-23-2014, 03:03 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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Another recommendation for the Valhalla reverbs.
I tried lots of plugins, trying to find something that compared with my TC M2000 and M3000 boxes. Nearly bought the TC powercore card for their reverbs just before they discontinued them.
I haven't looked any further since finding VRoom, and later, VVV.
>
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06-23-2014, 03:41 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Brown
I'mnot aat my computer right now but you can load impulse responses right in Reapers own ReaVerb. I believe there is a load IR tab or somethingrright in the window.
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hmmm. i'm not familiar with these reverbs, but it does appear this is a mac only thing. the import files setting in reaverb don't match the file types in his package. the audio files are aiff, too. i'm sure that's not as big a problem as the file associations.
if anyone knows how to get this to work with a win 7 machine (32, or 64), i'm all ears.
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06-23-2014, 09:59 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 6,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmoss74
hmmm. i'm not familiar with these reverbs, but it does appear this is a mac only thing. the import files setting in reaverb don't match the file types in his package. the audio files are aiff, too. i'm sure that's not as big a problem as the file associations.
if anyone knows how to get this to work with a win 7 machine (32, or 64), i'm all ears.
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These IRs will work in Reaverb (Reaverb support .aiff files). Reaverb also has several IRs built in you can choose from.
Import the IR file into Reaverb, then tweak until you've got something you like.
Edit: See section 14.10 of the Reaper User Guide for info on Reaverb.
Enjoy.
__________________
Peace...
bluzkat
Last edited by bluzkat; 06-23-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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06-23-2014, 11:38 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sweden
Posts: 329
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For Windows, which of the file-types should I point the ReaVerb to? The data files, or the sound files? (There are two separate directories).
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06-23-2014, 11:50 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluzkat
These IRs will work in Reaverb (Reaverb support .aiff files). Reaverb also has several IRs built in you can choose from.
Import the IR file into Reaverb, then tweak until you've got something you like.
Edit: See section 14.10 of the Reaper User Guide for info on Reaverb.
Enjoy.
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will do, thanks. i only looked at the file types in that dl, and it didn't match what i saw in reaverb. i'll rtfm.
thanks
and when i last checked, the only ir's i saw were sweetoverb (or something like that), and one other. i'll look again.
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06-24-2014, 12:41 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henge1
Ha! If you are a true verb junkie, like myself, you have to check out the over modulated verbs in Ubermod. They are like modulated Lexicons on steroids. Not right for most stuff but when they work...watch out! Chorused space for days...;-)
Agreed that you could use mod plugs + convolution to get some great sounds.
Or like you say Echoboy into Microshift sounds huge.
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Hello Henge, I stopped buying reverb plugs after vvv, but I am about to relapse after this thread....
another one for the OP : Audio Damage's ADverb : directly modeled of Lexicon model 200, and cheap as well....
best
Nico
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