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Old 12-03-2016, 08:39 AM   #1
Gobsmacked
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Default Best workflow for solo classical guitar, one mic

Hi all, I'm new here. Please forgive any newbieness.

I have started recording my playing with a mind to making simple amateur Youtube videos. I am learning how to use Reaper as my DAW and I'm rather bewildered by the many options I have. I need advice on the best method to polish up my raw audio files. My method so far:

1. Play into single Neuman KM 184 (can't afford another for the time being), into XLR input of Zoom H5, 48kHz 24 bit
2. Transfer best take into Reaper DAW
3. Apply noise reduction with ReaFir effect (samples the background noise then digitally subtracts it)
4. Edit away the extraneous silence at beginning and end
5. Make smooth sounding fade in and fade out curves
6. Copy first track into tracks 2&3, and pan those hard left and right respectively. Keep #1 up the center.
7. Apply reverb to all tracks individually via the FX send/receive; Less verb on the center track, the idea being to simulate a direct sound up front and ambient sound from the far sides
8. Mix down to a stereo WAV file for export.

Does this make sense? I am at the beginning of learning this complicated software so any tips from would be appreciated. In particular I am confused by the many places that reverb can be applied, such as to individual tracks or to the final stereo track in the mixer. Choosing from the reverb types is also confusing.

Gratefully,
KP
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Old 12-03-2016, 12:14 PM   #2
Ishaan
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My thoughts:

1. Yes. I highly recommend doing so in a nice-sounding (i.e., acoustically treated) room. This will make your job much easier after the recording phase. Your mics and front end are fine. The most important factor is going to be the quality of the player

2. Yes

3. I would avoid noise reduction plug-ins if you can, as they *could* impact sound in other ways. And I just don't like the idea of that kind of destructive processing. I would instead try to minimize background noise at the recording phase. What's causing noise? Computer fans? Traffic? AC noise? There are solutions.

4. Yes

5. Yes

6. I'm not following this. You made the recording with one mic, so there is no need to duplicate the audio like this. I would simply slap my favorite reverb on the single track and make it about 10-15% wet. This is more simple than you are making it out to be (I think). No need to copy the tracks as such, and in fact, this may lead to an unnatural sound. M/S processing may help with what you are trying to do.

If you recorded the guitar with a stereo mic (and I record my classical guitar like this regularly, i.e. on two tracks), then it would make more sense to balance the tracks as such.

7. See 6.

8. Yes

Above all else, though, I'll say: if it sounds good, it is good! There are no rules. If you like the final sound and you trust your ears, I say go for it.

Spiral out, keep going.
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:43 AM   #3
Gobsmacked
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Default any value to doing verb on aux send track?

Thanks for your advice. I've also been told that it is worth trying to process the reverb on an entirely separate track that gets its send from track 1 via aux routing. Then keep the reverb 100% wet on the receiving track. I've followed this from the video tutorials and it works fairly well.

But I'm not sure it's necessary. As you said, it would simpler to just apply the FX chain to the first track, no routing needed. I think, not sure, that the intention with the above method is to have multiple tracks all sending into one reverb track, like all of the drums, or all of the vocals of a band. Am I correct in this?

KP
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:32 AM   #4
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Am I correct in this?
Yes.

ns
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:34 AM   #5
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As Ishaan said, try to minimise noise first rather than turn to noise removal. Having the microphone face directly away from the noise source will help (it is a cardiod pattern mic, I believe, so it will minimise sound sources directly behind it).

What noise is causing you problems? How far is the mic from the guitar? Remember that the position of the mic can give very different results so try experimenting with distance, position, and angle relative to the guitar to get the tone you want and minimise noise. Of course the direction of the noise sources may determine where the mic goes and therefore where you sit and what direction you face relative to the mic, rather than mic to guitar).

Re: reverbs, there are many ways to go about this. Choose what gives you sounds you like with an work flow that's no more complicated than you need it to be. If you want to send the reverb to a separate track, then do, but if not, then don't. In your case it may be convenient to have access to the reverb level from the mixer rather than opening the FX window, but that's your call to make.

I would suggest trying duplicating to two tracks and applying slightly different reverbs to them. It'll give a nice stereo-like feel.
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:47 AM   #6
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Thanks, Kev.

Room noise is just the usual noise in a residential house. I have a hardwood floor living room upstairs, a carpeted rec room downstairs with a bar fridge and the furnace in next room. Also have a very small music room with reasonable soundproofing, carpeting, full of athletic gear, sounds very dead. Think i'll try the latter next and compare it to the hardwood space with furnace turned off.

Because I'm recording a fairly quiet source instrument with a very sensitive mic and gain up, I expect I will always have some room noise. ReaFir has been VERY impressive at removing it with no ill effects that I can hear. Now if I can just stop breathing....

Mic positioning is about 1-1.5 meters away about 4 feet high, pointing at the 12th fret, not the soundhole. I am aware that too close makes the boomy bassy proximity effect and it also makes finger on string noise too prominent.

Sorting out the best reverb method is an ongoing experiment. Currently I'm just lining up an FX chain on the source track, with ReaFir, ReaVerb with the Voxengo convolution impulse St. Nicholas Church, with a mild Lo Pass filter to take the trebles off of the wet sound. Seems to work as well as anything and is simpler.

Question: is the above giving me a stereo signal at the output? I think it is. I can see two waveforms in the ReaVerb window when it comes up, and the options include a toggle for Wide spread and another for panning.

I will try double tracks with slightly different reverb settings. That was sorta my intention in the first post.

Thanks for your help
KP
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:39 AM   #7
serr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobsmacked View Post
Hi all, I'm new here. Please forgive any newbieness.

I have started recording my playing with a mind to making simple amateur Youtube videos. I am learning how to use Reaper as my DAW and I'm rather bewildered by the many options I have. I need advice on the best method to polish up my raw audio files. My method so far:

1. Play into single Neuman KM 184 (can't afford another for the time being), into XLR input of Zoom H5, 48kHz 24 bit
2. Transfer best take into Reaper DAW
3. Apply noise reduction with ReaFir effect (samples the background noise then digitally subtracts it)
4. Edit away the extraneous silence at beginning and end
5. Make smooth sounding fade in and fade out curves
6. Copy first track into tracks 2&3, and pan those hard left and right respectively. Keep #1 up the center.
7. Apply reverb to all tracks individually via the FX send/receive; Less verb on the center track, the idea being to simulate a direct sound up front and ambient sound from the far sides
8. Mix down to a stereo WAV file for export.

Does this make sense? I am at the beginning of learning this complicated software so any tips from would be appreciated. In particular I am confused by the many places that reverb can be applied, such as to individual tracks or to the final stereo track in the mixer. Choosing from the reverb types is also confusing.

Gratefully,
KP
#3 is a bad idea. The crudeness of the ReaFir plugin aside. (It's not appropriate for this but there are 3rd party broadband noise reduction plugins available.) If there is so much of a noise problem to require processing it out, stop everything and eliminate the noise at the source. The results will be night and day from any after the fact processing you could do and even with expensive restoration plugins. This is a huge red flag.

#6 - Can I assume you left out the steps where you're eq'ing and delaying those copies to simulate the reflection and stereo frequency spread you're after? (Otherwise it would literally be nothing more than a volume boost and just as mono as the original single track.) Make sure to check the results in mono to make sure you aren't introducing comb filtering too.
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:42 AM   #8
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Yeah, a meter out is pretty far. I would seriously consider getting in a lot closer. Even in quiet recording studios I routinely seen the mic in a lot closer than that. And the proximity effect really only kicks in closer than about 30 cm. It's really not an issue otherwise. But you'll find that EQ will tame the proximity effect when it is an issue.

Ultimately your mic positioning will help to minimise the finger noise and capture the sound of your guitar, though it's always a compromise and some level of finger noise will always be present. I know it drives some players crazy but the reality is that most non-guitarists don't notice it much and are much less bothered by it.

Also remember that finger noise is more a part of the performance than your breathing. In general many people don't even notice finger noise because it's part of the performance, between the notes, whereas breath noise (and any other noise sources) sounds out of place immediately because they external to the performance. You may also get a better performance not having to think about your breathing while playign.

I would really suggest putting time in this week purely to audition different mic positions. Then try different rooms. It's that kind of experience and learned knowledge that you'll find invaluable in future too.
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Even in quiet recording studios I routinely seen the mic in a lot closer than that.
12" would be my minimum if the room can handle it. We typically need some space to allow the sound coming from the guitar to develop. If the room is bad, we have no choice but to get in closer but that usually doesn't sound that great. If one has to get in close to avoid the room then use an angle to help capture more of the guitar but ideally, with an acoustic guitar and a mic, the room pretty much defines what you can do, how you can mic (creatively or defensively) and how good a sound you can actually get.

This series may by helpful to the OP, YMMV (the second vid covers mic positions): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aivxxQLK9Qw
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:29 AM   #10
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I must add a few extra things I've learned from recording quiet sources.. none of which have to do directly with the music, haha.

1. Audition the stool/chair you'll be sitting on. No creeks!
2. Wear suitable clothing for recording. No jeans or rough fabrics which make noise when you or the guitar is moved against them. Sweatpants work great.
3. If you want reverb on the final sound, find a good room. It will sound so much better but most importantly, it will mask the sound of noise in the room. Added reverb may just compound the issue, and of course sound less natural.
4. For noise removal, don't be obsessive about it. Your audience is far more forgiving in this genre, but conversely will be more likely to notice artifacts from the noise removal process, which, I can assure you, will exist. If you're pleased with how much of an effect ReaFir has on the noise of the track, then it's doing too much already.

One approach that can work to reduce the presence of noise is to record intentionally bright, countering with a shelf EQ, and preferably doing this while setting up the mic to ensure the effect works. Once finished, the noise floor is diminished in comparison to the high end of the guitar. To get the brighter sound just avoid the soundhole by angling the mic.

Lastly, don't forget the Zoom H5 has mics too and you can use these for a nice room sound in conjunction with the XLR input.
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Old 12-24-2016, 10:27 AM   #11
Gobsmacked
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Default Finally a vid to show

This is one of the early vids I made with the gear mentioned above. I simplified the DAW work to just applying convolution reverb (St. Nicholas' Church) to the source track with a mild pre-delay and a low pass filter on the verb. I'm pleased with the result, but wonder what you peeps would say. I am already aware of the mistakes in the playing. Please let me know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mh5TbcCvfo

KP
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:01 AM   #12
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I'd say that Reafir isn't a horrible thing to utilize but don't apply it destructively or that early. Get the noise profile at the final stage and put it on the track. Then use the dry/wet blend knob on the upper right of the plugin instead of moving the profile graph around. I think it's a better way to find the best ratio of reduction to artifacts.

Also, it's totally worth it to spend a LOT of time making test recordings of your optimum recording spaces. For solo guitar hardwood floors in a small room are your enemy, especially since there are so many parallel walls in normal, nice rooms, which create the honky "standing wave" boingy reflections rather than the nice pleasant kind. Use the quietest place and hang blankets to lessen reflections and just concentrate on the area near the guitar and mic. It really works to spend the time and effort before recording rather than record however is available and spend a lot of time making it better in software.

Here's a room that is located so that it's quiet enough to record a guitar in but sounds absolutely awful as is. I can't make it sound decent in Reaper.



With a little cheap PVC pipe from the plumbing dept and $6 moving blankets it becomes this



and as long as the neighbor's dog doesn't start barking and an am*****ce doesn't siren into the hospital down the block I'm good to go : ) Very little touching up needed. It only took a trip to the big box home store but makes all the difference.


ed: LOL : ) The name of the vehicle which transports people to the emergency room got censored : ) Ha ha.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobsmacked View Post
This is one of the early vids I made with the gear mentioned above. I simplified the DAW work to just applying convolution reverb (St. Nicholas' Church) to the source track with a mild pre-delay and a low pass filter on the verb. I'm pleased with the result, but wonder what you peeps would say. I am already aware of the mistakes in the playing. Please let me know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mh5TbcCvfo

KP
The guitar sounds great. Good mic placement and reverb sounds good, but I wouldn't add any more. You could even use a little less reverb, but I do like it as is! Overall, I really like it and find it very easy to listen to (a few fingering mistakes aside, of course). Finger noise does not bother me one iota. Breathing and clothing noise are intrusive at times especially from the 1 min mark. The first 50 seconds are pretty good however and exactly what you should be aiming at.

Just browsing Youtube for similar videos, your guitar sound is thicker and bassier than others but without being muddy or lacking clarity. As I said, before, I like it! That said, you can try reposition and angle the mic to minimise breath and clothing noise and a somewhat thinner guitar tone will still be perfectly acceptable. See, this example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRfSr0bd_70

Overall, well done!
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:25 AM   #14
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Also, definitely try the Zoom mics along with the KM184. You have nothing to lose : ) Put them pointing at where the neck meets the body about six inches away, pretty close. Then use the Neumann as you have been, to get a good sound after it has blossomed a bit. Try about a foot further away. Generally you'd be getting closer to minimize room noise and back for a fuller sound, but instead of bringing it in further than you are happy with to lessen the room enough, try bringing the Zoom mics into the balance to add some cleaner, less roomy guitar, even if it's too clean own its own.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobsmacked View Post
This is one of the early vids I made with the gear mentioned above. I simplified the DAW work to just applying convolution reverb (St. Nicholas' Church) to the source track with a mild pre-delay and a low pass filter on the verb. I'm pleased with the result, but wonder what you peeps would say. I am already aware of the mistakes in the playing. Please let me know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mh5TbcCvfo

KP
I think the sound is very good...full but clear. I like the reverb. I'm surprised you can get enough level out of the guitar with the mic a metre (?) away. Maybe with the mic about 40 cms away background noise (bar fridge etc) will be less problematic anyway. Nice 7 string guitar...did you do the nut compensation on the 2nd and 3rd strings yourself? A bit of string squeak is fine, sounds like a guitar...I sometimes edit some squeaks if they bother me...and I use polished strings to lesson it overall...certain techniques reduce it of course but it will always be there somewhere.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:30 PM   #16
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The breathing and clothing have bugged me too when I listen closely with headphones. And I must admit the mic is closer than in my first post, more like 1/2 a meter. Partly this is due to moving to a smaller, more soundproofed room. As to the thicker and bassier tone, I really prefer it to the thin sound in your example. My fave recordings are a more full frequency experience, if you take my meaning.

I think my next move will be to move the mic back to ~1 meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKev View Post
The guitar sounds great. Good mic placement and reverb sounds good, but I wouldn't add any more. You could even use a little less reverb, but I do like it as is! Overall, I really like it and find it very easy to listen to (a few fingering mistakes aside, of course). Finger noise does not bother me one iota. Breathing and clothing noise are intrusive at times especially from the 1 min mark. The first 50 seconds are pretty good however and exactly what you should be aiming at.

Just browsing Youtube for similar videos, your guitar sound is thicker and bassier than others but without being muddy or lacking clarity. As I said, before, I like it! That said, you can try reposition and angle the mic to minimise breath and clothing noise and a somewhat thinner guitar tone will still be perfectly acceptable. See, this example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRfSr0bd_70

Overall, well done!
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:32 PM   #17
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Thanks, full but clear is the goal. I'm glad the reverb pleases you, I stress out about using too much. The nut compensation is my simple mod with some wood doweling, It works very well and is completely reversible. Easy experiment and very rewarding.

KP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldreap View Post
I think the sound is very good...full but clear. I like the reverb. I'm surprised you can get enough level out of the guitar with the mic a metre (?) away. Maybe with the mic about 40 cms away background noise (bar fridge etc) will be less problematic anyway. Nice 7 string guitar...did you do the nut compensation on the 2nd and 3rd strings yourself? A bit of string squeak is fine, sounds like a guitar...I sometimes edit some squeaks if they bother me...and I use polished strings to lesson it overall...certain techniques reduce it of course but it will always be there somewhere.
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gobsmacked View Post
Thanks, full but clear is the goal. I'm glad the reverb pleases you, I stress out about using too much. The nut compensation is my simple mod with some wood doweling, It works very well and is completely reversible. Easy experiment and very rewarding.

KP
It's wise to be careful about too much reverb..but if the reverb is of good quality then that classical guitar room thing can be good. I remember some Julian Bream recordings done in a church...the overall sound is as if you're actually in the church hearing the glorious natural reverb..definitely not close miked..gorgeous....and some of the really old Segovia recordings have the same thing..very nice.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:23 PM   #19
Gobsmacked
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Default EQ cut to high frequencies for classical guitar

After making a few recordings and videos, I have noticed a bothersome amount of high frequency content that I can only describe as handling noise. Just having my fingers lightly moving about the strings causes minor persistent noises that drive me batty. I don't mind the occasional string noise, but my experiments find it quite helpful to cut the 10-12 kHz bands to clean up the sound. Does anyone else use an EQ to cut high frequencies off of their recordings? Do the pros do this?


Of course I am well aware that good playing technique eliminates much of the extraneous noises and that different mics will have different frequency response.

KP
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:58 AM   #20
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I encourage you to use two mics, even if the second is an inexpensive SD condenser. Use the second mic to capture some room ambience, and have it a couple of feet away, maybe more. When mixing feature the KM184 as the main sound, but blend a little of the room mic to create a natural stereo ambience. You don't need an expensive mic for the room mic, and there are some decent inexpensive SD condensers if you shop around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobsmacked View Post
Hi all, I'm new here. Please forgive any newbieness.

I have started recording my playing with a mind to making simple amateur Youtube videos. I am learning how to use Reaper as my DAW and I'm rather bewildered by the many options I have. I need advice on the best method to polish up my raw audio files. My method so far:

1. Play into single Neuman KM 184 (can't afford another for the time being), into XLR input of Zoom H5, 48kHz 24 bit
2. Transfer best take into Reaper DAW
3. Apply noise reduction with ReaFir effect (samples the background noise then digitally subtracts it)
4. Edit away the extraneous silence at beginning and end
5. Make smooth sounding fade in and fade out curves
6. Copy first track into tracks 2&3, and pan those hard left and right respectively. Keep #1 up the center.
7. Apply reverb to all tracks individually via the FX send/receive; Less verb on the center track, the idea being to simulate a direct sound up front and ambient sound from the far sides
8. Mix down to a stereo WAV file for export.

Does this make sense? I am at the beginning of learning this complicated software so any tips from would be appreciated. In particular I am confused by the many places that reverb can be applied, such as to individual tracks or to the final stereo track in the mixer. Choosing from the reverb types is also confusing.

Gratefully,
KP
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