New Reaper GUI?

[Russwasherejr]

Are we ever going to get a new GUI for reaper? It looks so old and outdated compared to everything else out there. It's not exactly the most stunning software out, I understand there is skins out there, which look excellent. But I still feel like some things could be easily improved to make this program amazing.


the thing that really bother me with the program is plugin sorting. Could we possibly get it to sort by dynamics / eq / reverb / delay / etc. Just like Pro Tools has? I hate going through 100 plugins searching for what I need if I don't know the name of it.

I know I can't be the only one here that gets bored using reacomp or reaeq, we can't get any upgraded look to it? pretty sure it's looked the same since the beginning

[bogo]

Originally Posted by Russwasherejr

Are we ever going to get a new GUI for reaper? It looks so old and outdated compared to everything else out there. It's not exactly the most stunning software out, I understand there is skins out there, which look excellent. But I still feel like some things could be easily improved to make this program amazing.


the thing that really bother me with the program is plugin sorting. Could we possibly get it to sort by dynamics / eq / reverb / delay / etc. Just like Pro Tools has? I hate going through 100 plugins searching for what I need if I don't know the name of it.

I know I can't be the only one here that gets bored using reacomp or reaeq, we can't get any upgraded look to it? pretty sure it's looked the same since the beginning

Just create your own folders into the FX windows (Eq, Comp, etc) and drag the fx into the folders.
Watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcBKZTtRiNg

The reaplug suite FX look is fine for me. Work with your ears. I'd rather have the devs working on more important things.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Russwasherejr

Are we ever going to get a new GUI for reaper? It looks so old and outdated compared to everything else out there.

So we need thousands of GUIs each one tweaked especially for the taste of the user in question.

But !!!! giving a person a GUI perfect for his/her taste hides all the options of a program that are not obvious for the person in question.

So: IMHO: a very bad idea.

-Michael

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by bogo

The reaplug suite FX look is fine for me. Work with your ears. I'd rather have the devs working on more important things.

Graphics and coding are done by different people, for obvious reasons.

[ivansc]

Russ - you have been using reaper for seven years and didnt figure out how to set up your own plugin folders yet?

Seriously, I also use Sonar Pro and Studio One 2.6 (didnt bother updating to 3, because I find S1`s performance pretty dire) and to be honest see very little difference in the look and feel of them and Reaper.
And Reaper works better *for me* than the other two.
I suppose it all depends on what inspires you, but the appearance of an audio application for me, once you get past "does the workflow suit me" is largely irrelevant so long as I can see clearly what is going oh.
Just my two cents worth.

[slipstick]

Originally Posted by Russwasherejr

I know I can't be the only one here that gets bored using reacomp or reaeq, we can't get any upgraded look to it? pretty sure it's looked the same since the beginning

I tend to dislike developers who keep changing the look of things so I can no longer find the controls I want. I'd much rather they spend their time improving the functionality, when needed.

Steve

[Russwasherejr]

I don't know everything about reaper, there's probably alot of things that you can do that I didn't know, but the program itself looks very outdated being thrown up against anything out there. Everything just looks uninspiring and very lackluster. Nobody said they had to change everything in the program or move buttons around or anything like that. Just a nicer look would be cool. Maybe some graphics for reacomp and reaeq and stuff like that. I really love the comp/eq but it just seems so blah and basic to me.

That's just me.

Btw, to the guy that linked me on how to set up folders, thank you! very awesome!

[zappsunzorn]

A little off topic but...

When I read posts by people, some that even take it to a greater extreme saying "I can not work when it looks like this", about Reaper and other audio software, I wonder if those people have worked with console automation software, especially old console automation software. I find it ironic that in all my time reading Audio forums I do not recall once someone commenting about the old and outdated look of the software that runs their console's automation.

End mini rant, now back on topic....

[Lawrence]

Deja Vu.

Joe: Will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears not with your eyes!!!

Joe: Nice new Reaper theme, Imperial.
Jim: Yes... it makes a HUGE difference! Put the big boys to shame!!!

Joe: Have you seen those new GUI's someone did for some ReaPlugs?
Jim: Yes! They look WAY better. Great stuff!!! Looks way better!!!

Joe: So will Reaper ever change the GUI?
JIm: Mix with your ears, not with your eyes!!!! I don't care what GUI's look like!!!

Oh, the irony.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by zappsunzorn

A little off topic but...

It's not an off topic. Well, some DAWs have theme editors/themes, therefore there is no a big problem with it. But there are cosmetic drawbacks in default themes, that's why people complain about it. Not everyone wants to change the default theme. It's easier for them to complain about it.

[OPI]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Deja Vu.

Joe: Will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears not with your eyes!!!

Joe: Nice new Reaper theme, Imperial.
Jim: Yes... it makes a HUGE difference! Put the big boys to shame!!!

Joe: Have you seen those new GUI's someone did for some ReaPlugs?
Jim: Yes! They look WAY better. Great stuff!!! Looks way better!!!

Joe: So will Reaper ever change the GUI?
JIm: Mix with your ears, not with your eyes!!!! I don't care what GUI's look like!!!

Oh, the irony.

Are there skins for the reaplugs????

Btw i love the default theme. I think its the best..

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by OPI

Are there skins for the reaplugs????

I saw some guys here skinning JS plugs or something so maybe I should have said "JS". They looked pretty nice from what I recall.

Point being, you (not you personally) can't praise that and similar things and then turn around and take the exact opposite position otherwise.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by zappsunzorn

A little off topic but...

When I read posts by people, some that even take it to a greater extreme saying "I can not work when it looks like this", about Reaper and other audio software, I wonder if those people have worked with console automation software, especially old console automation software. I find it ironic that in all my time reading Audio forums I do not recall once someone commenting about the old and outdated look of the software that runs their console's automation.

End mini rant, now back on topic....

I see what you did there.

[OPI]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I saw some guys here skinning JS plugs or something so maybe I should have said "JS". They looked pretty nice from what I recall.

Point being, you (not you personally) can't praise that and similar things and then turn around and take the exact opposite position otherwise.

Ah i see. Js would make more sense. Thanks.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Russwasherejr

INobody said they had to change everything in the program or move buttons around or anything like that. Just a nicer look would be cool. Maybe some graphics for reacomp and reaeq and stuff like that. I really love the comp/eq but it just seems so blah and basic to me.

OK you have sort of got my interest now.
Having voiced a criticism, could you give me/us a better idea of both what you dont like about the current gui and more importantly some idea - preferably with examples - of what sort of look YOU think would look "nicer" and not "blah and basic"?

I am genuinely interested in your ideas, as this sort of thread surfaces on a pretty regular basis, but none of the posters seem prepared to offer any solid suggestions.


P.S. Just so long as we aren't straying into the toytown/frooty-loops territory!

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Deja Vu.

Joe: Will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears not with your eyes!!!

Joe: Nice new Reaper theme, Imperial.
Jim: Yes... it makes a HUGE difference! Put the big boys to shame!!!

Joe: Have you seen those new GUI's someone did for some ReaPlugs?
Jim: Yes! They look WAY better. Great stuff!!! Looks way better!!!

Joe: So will Reaper ever change the GUI?
JIm: Mix with your ears, not with your eyes!!!! I don't care what GUI's look like!!!

Oh, the irony.

Imperial looks pretty but I find it very difficult to work with. The Default 5 theme is far better for me.

[Russwasherejr]

Originally Posted by ivansc

OK you have sort of got my interest now.
Having voiced a criticism, could you give me/us a better idea of both what you dont like about the current gui and more importantly some idea - preferably with examples - of what sort of look YOU think would look "nicer" and not "blah and basic"?

I am genuinely interested in your ideas, as this sort of thread surfaces on a pretty regular basis, but none of the posters seem prepared to offer any solid suggestions.


P.S. Just so long as we aren't straying into the toytown/frooty-loops territory!

Well, I guess just something that doesn't look so basic. Personally I feel like the comp plugin especially would be great with maybe some knobs. I'm not knocking the program, and for the people that are saying "mix with your ears not your eyes" not all of us use this just for mixing... We use it to create songs also. I've installed plenty of themes, currently using fusion right now.

I think actual knobs and some background applied to each fx would make it look good. Just my 2 cents. Hate it or love it, just offering input here.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Deja Vu.

Joe: Will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears not with your eyes!!!

Joe: Nice new Reaper theme, Imperial.
Jim: Yes... it makes a HUGE difference! Put the big boys to shame!!!

Joe: Have you seen those new GUI's someone did for some ReaPlugs?
Jim: Yes! They look WAY better. Great stuff!!! Looks way better!!!

Joe: So will Reaper ever change the GUI?
JIm: Mix with your ears, not with your eyes!!!! I don't care what GUI's look like!!!

Oh, the irony.

I don't believe you have seen that conversation. It much more likely went like this:

Joe: Will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears not with your eyes!!!

Jeff: Nice new Reaper theme, Imperial.
Jack: Yes... it makes a HUGE difference! Put the big boys to shame!!!

Tom: Have you seen those new GUI's someone did for some ReaPlugs?
Bill: Yes! They look WAY better. Great stuff!!! Looks way better!!!

Joe: So will Reaper ever change the GUI?
Jim: Mix with your ears, not with your eyes!!!! I don't care what GUI's look like!!!

Where's the irony?

[mschnell]

I understand, the Reaper User Interface (not just the GUI, but also more generally what actions are offered to the user and how (s)he is enabled to take them) is less "imperative" than with many other DAWs.

So the user has a great freedom of choice where to go and how, as Reaper avoids to force/suggest a predefined workflow.

Obviously by many user this is perceived as a "plague of choice".

-Michael

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Russwasherejr

Well, I guess just something that doesn't look so basic. Personally I feel like the comp plugin especially would be great with maybe some knobs. I'm not knocking the program, and for the people that are saying "mix with your ears not your eyes" not all of us use this just for mixing... We use it to create songs also. I've installed plenty of themes, currently using fusion right now.

I think actual knobs and some background applied to each fx would make it look good. Just my 2 cents. Hate it or love it, just offering input here.

OK so you would like knobs and colouring on reaplugs. Anything else?

I think you got the wrong idea with the "mix with your ears not your eyes" comment.
I too am mostly a songwriter/recorder and I try VERY hard not to get distracted from the sound of what I am doing by the look of the tools I am using.
But there again I use a lot of different plugins from a lot of different sources, so the GUIs I get to look at vary hugely.

"Fixing" Reapers GUI wont change that, plus of course you just have another layer of competing eye candy.
It has only just occurred to me that almost everyone who complains about Reapers GUI seems to overlook that.
Reaper doesnt operate in isolation from the rest of the GUI world.
What would you do if Cockos (or some clever scripter) introduced more "analogue" GUIs to the reaplugs and you didnt like them?

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by gofer

Where's the irony?

The irony is how some of the opinions are situational, where it's fine to praise the usefulness of GUI's (good looking plugins, whatever) as long as it's not discussed in the context of what some appear to always take as a knock on Reaper, like talking about how bland the ReaPlug GUI's are, then the opinion takes a 180.

It's a silly (and repetitive) discussion imo... because it always triggers a certain level of unnecessary defensiveness. It always comes down to function, even when the discussion is clearly never about that. Nobody doubts the functionality of ReaPlugs, they're great. But comparatively speaking, they're butt ugly. Not sure why panties get twisted whenever someone says what's clearly true... (at least on Windows) ...



Would anyone who doesn't care about that be hurt in some way if the ReaPlug GUI's were more attractive, or were also themed with the main theme?

[slipstick]

As we've said before, it would depend what changes you think would make them "more attractive" and what percentage of users actually agreed with you.

If it involves moving around all the controls that I've got used to, turning the sliders that I'm used to into knobs and colouring everything in garish colours that you like but that hurt my eyes and make it more difficult to use then I'd care. I would consider that a real waste of development time that could have been used to improve the (that word again) functionality instead.

Working well, sounding good, important to me. Looking pretty, not bothered.

Steve

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by slipstick

As we've said before, it would depend what changes you think would make them "more attractive" and what percentage of users actually agreed with you.

If it involves moving around all the controls that I've got used to, turning the sliders that I'm used to into knobs and colouring everything in garish colours that you like but that hurt my eyes and make it more difficult to use then I'd care. I would consider that a real waste of development time that could have been used to improve the (that word again) functionality instead.

Working well, sounding good, important to me. Looking pretty, not bothered.

Steve

Yeah improving the UI is all about making it worse in garish colours that hurt they eyes. And the graphic designer could have been working on the DSP code instead!

Where do these people even come from.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by slipstick

I would consider that a real waste of development time that could have been used to improve the (that word again) functionality instead.

The old "development resources" chestnut.

I knew that would pop up here sooner or later, it always does, like it would take 9 months and 10,000 man hours to skin some plugins and some other really important thing wouldn't get done. Like if they'd spent a few days doing that in the 10 years since Reaper 1.0 we might not have some other thing now because they spent 72 hours on that.

Like I suggested above, the entire discussion is just wacky.

I wonder what great features we don't have now because Justin spent time porting ReaPlugs to VST? What a waste of "development resources".

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

The irony is how some of the opinions are situational, where it's fine to praise the usefulness of GUI's (good looking plugins, whatever) as long as it's not discussed in the context of what some appear to always take as a knock on Reaper, like talking about how bland the ReaPlug GUI's are, then the opinion takes a 180.

It's a silly (and repetitive) discussion imo... because it always triggers a certain level of unnecessary defensiveness. It always comes down to function, even when the discussion is clearly never about that. Nobody doubts the functionality of ReaPlugs, they're great. But comparatively speaking, they're butt ugly. Not sure why panties get twisted whenever someone says what's clearly true... (at least on Windows) ...



Would anyone who doesn't care about that be hurt in some way if the ReaPlug GUI's were more attractive, or were also themed with the main theme?

Either you missed my point or you're dodging it. While you are making it appear as if the "Mix with your ears" reply comes from the same guy as the "Looks cool, makes a difference" reply, that is not what happens. Nobody did a 180 as far as I can see, and I don't see any twisted panties here. This is an open forum with more than two people contributing, replies of all flavors will happen.

[Lawrence]

I'm saying exactly that.

That over the years I've witnessed some (keyword: some, not all) of the same people here praising things like Imperial or skinned JS plugs while at the same time being uber defensive about anyone asking for skinning the rest of Reaper. Not necessarily anyone in this literal thread though, but this discussion happens often enough.

I just don't get it tbh. ReaPlugs are great and if Justin skinned them tomorrow 80% of the same people who are here saying it's unnecessary would be thanking him for it... saying ... "Great! You devs rock!!".

I think we know that by now, having seen it happen a few times before, where some of the same people who regularly dismissed the need for X thing used it as a "Reaper is great" talking point the day after it got added.

That's not a Reaper thing btw...it's a daw + Internet thing. PT and Cubase users do the same thing.

[gofer]

This might have happened some few times over the years. Even if you could come up with even a single fairly recent example, it would be the exception. Arguing as if it was the norm smells like kind of a discussion tactic.

[Lawrence]

It is the norm, and I'm not arguing only observing.

Show me one time where Cockos improved the GUI in any way (graphic wise) and - anybody in the forum - complained afterward about it being an unnecessary waste of time. Not saying it's never happened, only that I haven't seen it. The complaining happens (apparently) because some people are unnecessarily defensive about what hasn't happened yet, and take the regular ask as a knock that requires defending, that's all.

Once it actually happens it's always "great".

[gofer]

That is changing the goalpost.
What we're looking for is an example where the same person who said he wouldn't like a particular change in the GUI later on praises this same change when it actually happened.

I as well am not claiming it never happened, but it's certainly not the norm.

[Lawrence]

I could easily do that but I won't because it would unnecessarily put those people on the spot and cause yet another meta-discussion and more bad feelings.

Point being... on every official daw forum (no exceptions I've seen) there are always - some - people who defend things that some other people ask for and then if the thing gets added later praise it and/or make note of it when doing the user marketing thing. Not everyone, but enough.

It's kinda going on right now on the Cubase forum, some users illogically defending the 8 plugin limit. If that changes in the future they won't complain about it. They only complain now because they view it as an attack on something they love.

If looks don't matter, only raw functionality, why does Reaper even need themeing at all? Why would they waste time on something that, for the most part, has no direct relevance to functionality?

[gofer]

Then we can only agree to disagree. Probably on the size of "enough".

Just this last remark on this: "Norm" would mean for me that a significant portion of contributors behave like that. In a group that exceeds a certain size you may and will encounter exceptions a lot if you are looking for them. But they still are just that.

[tgraph]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Point being, you (not you personally) can't praise that and similar things and then turn around and take the exact opposite position otherwise.

sure you can.. it happens all of the time

[Lawrence]

Yes, my comment may have been overly broad, I agree there and apologize for not framing it more narrlowly.

But it is "common enough" for people to dismiss things like this, tell others why they don't need it, while at the same time using something quite similar themselves already, like Reaper themes.

Otoh, if a guy is still using the 1.0 Reaper theme and truly doesn't give care what any of the graphics look like, only cares about function and nothing else, then that would be an example of someone honestly and literally not caring about any of that stuff, and behaving that way by demonstrable example. So for those who say only functionality matters... you're using this theme and showing it to people you want to use Reaper... right? It functions much the same. Why bother with the "prettier graphics"?

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

If looks don't matter, only raw functionality, why does Reaper even need themeing at all? Why would they waste time on something that, for the most part, has no direct relevance to functionality?

I'd say you are again conflating different person's views. For those who say looks don't matter it's perfectly possible that Reaper theming is a redundant feature.

Edit: You replied while I typed this. As of your example guy, I'd say if he truly doesn't care he wouldn't bother switching to v1.0 theme, but simply use the default (v5)... which apparently lots of users do.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by gofer

For those who say looks don't matter it's perfectly possible that Reaper does not need theming.

But I'd bet all of them are (at a minimum) using the new theme, not the functional 1.0 theme I showed above and if Reaper still looked like that pic they might be complaining also.

It's not conflating things at all, it's demonstrating that it's all graphics, the same subject matter, and people are just drawing personal lines in different places, but we all like nice graphics.

As of your example guy, I'd say if he truly doesn't care he wouldn't bother switching to v1.0 theme, but simply use the default (v5)... which apparently lots of users do.

That'w what I meant about drawing lines, wondering how that guy who doesn't care about graphics (or so he says) would feel about all that if that 1.0 classic theme *was* the one and only v5 theme.

Anywho, didn't intend to get into a long discussion about it. It's just puzzling to me why someone like ED asking (for years) for the themeing to also include plugins, to have a fully consistent theme if one optionally wants that, causes pushback. Seeing ReaPlugs floating over something like Imperial is ... a pretty big visual contrast.

[gofer]

Actually I could live pretty well with that look if there wasn't an alternative Funnily enough, if Imperial was the only alternative, I'd go with v1 anytime. Not to step on WT's toes or anybody else's who rightfully likes Imperial, but I can't stand that thing at all (I know it's just an example out of many, just saying).

You probably know it but for others: I'd never argue against theme-ability or new reaplug skins. I'd like to have more theming possibilities across the whole program to get things consistent (unified as someone called it). Just if other persons have a different view on it, I like them to have the right to say so without being depicted as "Jim Ironic". All good, Lawrence

[semiquaver]

what I want:

see plugins and sends in the tcp

have focus clearly indicated and controllable by action (I can't tell if a track is focused or an item is focused)

optional tiled interface

these are not "graphic" issues, but UI issues

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

what I want:

see plugins and sends in the tcp

have focus clearly indicated and controllable by action (I can't tell if a track is focused or an item is focused)

optional tiled interface

these are not "graphic" issues, but UI issues

Good suggestions.

Usability improvements > graphics tweaks, unfortunately the majority of forumites here can only think of UI development as "eye candy".

[Russwasherejr]

I started off on 1.0 lol. I actually switched from pro tools to reaper, because it's faster, and better to use.

One thing I noticed that i'm having trouble with, not sure if there's a way to do this, but when I make a new folder for plugins, like for example, if I make a "favorite compression" folder and I have to type comp in the search and it automatically adds all of them, it's not getting ALL of the plugins that I have as a compressor. for example the cla-2a. Is it possible to manually add the cla to my list somehow? I can't figure it out.

[ivansc]

Russ - my earlier question to you appears to have sunk with all hands courtesy of the arguments over semantics.
I really would like to know your thoughts on the GUI stuff I mentioned and any other sduggestions you have as to what could be done better in Reaper, especially if you have concrete examples of another DAW that does it better.
Also, are we talking about just the appearance of Reaper or its functuionality in terms of the GUI and workflow as a whole?

(careful though - we may actually drag this thread screaming and kicking back on *topic*!)