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05-25-2017, 05:41 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 32
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Recording Levels too High
Hi there,
I'm fairly new to Reaper and recording in general. I have seen a few tutorials online that state that it is best to set the recording levels for a distorted electric guitar to between -16db and -12db, but I can't get them down that low. I think that the problem lies in the fact that I'm using a Seymour Duncan Hotrails bridge pickup for my strat. Even with the gain on my interface turned down as low as it will go, the levels in Reaper exceed the recommended range, and if I turn it up even a fraction, then it will go into the red. I'm using an Alesis io2 interface. Anyone have any idea how to solve this problem?
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05-25-2017, 06:24 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Shredding'em
Hi there,
I'm fairly new to Reaper and recording in general. I have seen a few tutorials online that state that it is best to set the recording levels for a distorted electric guitar to between -16db and -12db, but I can't get them down that low. I think that the problem lies in the fact that I'm using a Seymour Duncan Hotrails bridge pickup for my strat. Even with the gain on my interface turned down as low as it will go, the levels in Reaper exceed the recommended range, and if I turn it up even a fraction, then it will go into the red. I'm using an Alesis io2 interface. Anyone have any idea how to solve this problem?
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Turn down the volume? But I guess that is the answer, either on the amp if you use one (move the mic further back), otherwise on the guitar if going direct. If direct you could also add a DI box with a pad, or some fx pedal that has a gain control.
Or just live with it, maybe it's totally OK..! I normally try to hit around -18dBFS, but often there might be a drum hit or something else that peaks at the occasional -12 or -6. Have a band that has no time for setting levels properly before recording
Nothing to panic about I think.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
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05-25-2017, 06:40 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 7,239
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This is not a REAPER problem. You need to learn how to control your input volume in your interface. I don't know that interface but all interfaces should have some kind of mixer or something. If not maybe it is in the default OS volume controls.
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05-25-2017, 07:38 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 210
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Pretty much what Jack Winter posted, and also a free and easy test:
* Turn interface gain knob down to zero. With a screwdriver, lower the pickup height adjustment screws, until your interface meters never go into the red. Listen back to the raw d.i. file for any clips or clicks, if still there, lower some more.
I usually aim for -6db on Reapers meters as the max peak hardest possible strum, avg is probly -12db then listen back and check for clicks. (clipping)
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05-25-2017, 07:41 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Be aware guys there are a handful of interfaces with substandard preamp circuits (bad gain structure on the INST in) and no pad to compensate for it with. This problem keeps popping up with users plugging directly into the interface using SIMs and the instrument input can't deal with the input.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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05-25-2017, 07:43 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda
This is not a REAPER problem. You need to learn how to control your input volume in your interface. I don't know that interface but all interfaces should have some kind of mixer or something. If not maybe it is in the default OS volume controls.
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Sometimes it's not possible to fix this with the input volume of the interface though. I know because I have such an interface (actually a standalone preamp), where even at the full leftmost setting it's problematic to record e.g. drums with it (it's close to clipping).
Agreeing with Jack Winter here, a pad could help in this case.
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05-25-2017, 07:45 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
Agreeing with Jack Winter here, a pad could help in this case.
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I agree but it's likely a HI-Z guitar input so your classic LO-Z XLR inline pad isn't going to work. If they had something like a volume pedal or something or any reasonable way to reduce the guitar signal going in.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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05-25-2017, 07:53 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Luxembourg/Spain
Posts: 1,922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I agree but it's likely a HI-Z guitar input so your classic LO-Z XLR inline pad isn't going to work. If they had something like a volume pedal or something or any reasonable way to reduce the guitar signal going in.
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Hopefully the OP has a mic pre input available too.
__________________
Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :)
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05-25-2017, 08:30 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I agree but it's likely a HI-Z guitar input so your classic LO-Z XLR inline pad isn't going to work.
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Ah yes, good point. Thanks.
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05-25-2017, 08:43 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
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Quote:
I'm fairly new to Reaper and recording in general. I have seen a few tutorials online that state that it is best to set the recording levels for a distorted electric guitar to between -16db and -12db, but I can't get them down that low.
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As long as the signal doesn't "try" to go over 0db and clip nothing bad will happen and the sound quality/character won't be affected at all!
You can always lower the volume later if it makes it "easier" to mix.
Those -12 to -18db guidelines are to allow headroom for unexpected peaks so you don't clip your ADC (probably not necessary with distorted guitar).
And, to allow headroom for effects that might boost the levels, and for mixing which increases levels because mixing is done by summing. However, with floating-point processing (which REAPER and most modern DAWs use) you essentially have unlimited headroom so you can go way over 0dB temporarily while mixing/editing as long as you lower the level for your "final-render".
Some guitar plug-in effects may expect a certain level (just as a real guitar amp distorts when overdriven to a certain level) but that level can be adjusted after recording.
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05-25-2017, 08:46 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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The simplest answer is to run the guitar through any buffered bypass pedal (pretty much anything from the big names) and then flip the switch to mic/line instead of guitar. This way the guitar still sees a high impedance load, but the interface doesn't add that extra 9-10db of gain. The pedal will need to be powered, but not necessarily on.
Edit - Though I actually agree with DVDoug. Frankly, even if it does clip a little here and there, that's going to be masked by the distortion you're adding down the line anyway.
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05-25-2017, 10:04 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 32
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Thanks for all your replies, I will try your suggestions. I feel like I should clarify the precise nature of the problem: I can't get the levels down low enough to prevent clipping in Reaper, unless the gain is turned all the way down on my guitar interface, and even then it's close to clipping and sounds bad. If I select a different pickup it seems to be okay (or even a combination of my bridge pickup and the middle one). This leads me to believe that it's the bridge pickup that's causing the unusually high output level. When setting up my guitar, I set the pickup heights to the recommended heights for a strat, but I'm thinking that since my bridge pickup is a SD Hot Rails It might need to be a bit lower than a standard single coil. I'd really like to be able to use my bridge pickup with all the dials turned up on my guitar.
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05-25-2017, 10:06 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Shredding'em
I can't get the levels down low enough to prevent clipping in Reaper, unless the gain is turned all the way down on my guitar interface, and even then it's close to clipping and sounds bad.
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It's the same difference if you mean during recording because Reaper is only reflecting what is happening in the interface when record armed. On a side note, neck pickups are by nature hotter because there is more room/less tension for the string to swing vs up close to the bridge. If turning the interface all the way down isn't enough then follow aschat's suggestion if possible.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 05-25-2017 at 10:16 AM.
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05-25-2017, 10:35 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Shredding'em
...since my bridge pickup is a SD Hot Rails It might need to be a bit lower than a standard single coil. I'd really like to be able to use my bridge pickup with all the dials turned up on my guitar.
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SD's site says the output of that pickup is 16.6, so it seems that's a pretty hot pickup. (BTW, it's a single-coil sized humbucker, but it is a humbucker. Also, it doesn't say 16.6 what, so I'm assuming Kohms.) I would try lowering it.
I'd agree with what (I think) others are saying along the lines of it overloading your interface, and I think this is reinforced by the problem going away when you use a different pickup.
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05-25-2017, 10:38 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
SD's site says the output of that pickup is 16.6, so it seems that's a pretty hot pickup. (BTW, it's a single-coil sized humbucker, but it is a humbucker. Also, it doesn't say 16.6 what, so I'm assuming Kohms.) I would try lowering it.
I'd agree with what (I think) others are saying along the lines of it overloading your interface, and I think this is reinforced by the problem going away when you use a different pickup.
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I agree but it would be an understatement to say it annoys me that someone has to change pickup height to work around a shitty made interface circuit. Not to be too terse, but damn, that's its farking purpose LOL.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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05-25-2017, 12:51 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I agree but it would be an understatement to say it annoys me that someone has to change pickup height to work around a shitty made interface circuit. Not to be too terse, but damn, that's its farking purpose LOL.
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Excellent point. It's likely that a better solution would be to replace the interface. Downside, of course, is that that's not free.
Having said that, I'm of the opinion that moving the pickups a bit further away from the strings tends to improve tone anyway. Easily done and undone, and costs only time (and more time to test than to do).
One more thing for OP: I just looked up that interface, and just to make sure, you DO have the input switched to Guitar and not Mic/Line, right?
If it's a recent purchase you might contact Alesis about it. At least one Amazon reviewer specifically states it has decent headroom, so you might have gotten a bad unit.
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05-25-2017, 01:01 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
One more thing for OP: I just looked up that interface, and just to make sure, you DO have the input switched to Guitar and not Mic/Line, right?
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I think he does since there is usually a boost there for instruments like guitar (see ashcat's reply), that's the piece likely causing the over gain. I do sort of get it, they are trying to fit a preamp, low and high impedance + instrument boost into a tiny space and often a combo connector at a low price.
I do get the challenge at hand for the designers, it just bugs me that where they fall short is often the exact place it hurts people the product is best suited for.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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05-26-2017, 10:37 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reason
Excellent point. It's likely that a better solution would be to replace the interface. Downside, of course, is that that's not free.
Having said that, I'm of the opinion that moving the pickups a bit further away from the strings tends to improve tone anyway. Easily done and undone, and costs only time (and more time to test than to do).
One more thing for OP: I just looked up that interface, and just to make sure, you DO have the input switched to Guitar and not Mic/Line, right?
If it's a recent purchase you might contact Alesis about it. At least one Amazon reviewer specifically states it has decent headroom, so you might have gotten a bad unit.
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I definitely did have it switched to guitar, I made sure! I bought it second hand and it's quite old now. I'll try lowering the pickup when I next have an opportunity.
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05-26-2017, 03:13 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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I normally record at -7dB and below
I am unaware of any problems associated with that.
Grinder
https://soundcloud.com/steve-maitland-1
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