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Old 12-20-2016, 06:06 AM   #1
reapercurious
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Default anybody use a Yamaha TG-77 with Reaper?

Hi,

I noticed that no matter what I do, I seem to be getting hanging/stuck MIDI notes with my TG77. I was wondering if anybody else has this synth or has had similar experiences with it. Google showed nothing, so I am proudly adding this issue to the internet.

To reproduce on Reaper 5:

Create midi item with one long note, play the note. Play the MIDI clip. While playing, move the cursor to some place on the timeline after the note starts playing on the TG77. Stopping, sending "all midi notes off" in the actions menu doesn't work for me either. This may be a bug in the TG77.

What say you?
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:47 AM   #2
Dannii
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I have an SY77 (keyboard version of the TG77) that I've had for around 25 years now. It is one of my favourite synths even amongst Moog and Roland analog gear.

As it happens, I'm literally repatching my studio right now and plugging my synths into a couple of new interfaces I just purchased so I can give this a test once I've finished all the patching and will let you know how it goes.

I haven't noticed stuck notes on previous projects with my SY77 but I'll try by reproducing the steps you listed.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:31 AM   #3
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Hi,
I have a tg77... Never noticed any anomoly specific to it. Will check it. If it wasn't for sounddiver and its editor I wouldn't be able to use it because of the crappy display lighting. But an FM giant in a way.
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Old 12-20-2016, 08:57 AM   #4
reapercurious
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thanks for the replies!

by the way, here's a free SY77/TG77 editor, using CTRLR.

http://ctrlr.org/yamaha-sy-tg77-editor/
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Old 12-20-2016, 05:03 PM   #5
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I just tried this with a few synths. Some hold the note and some don't.
Here's my results:

1. SY77 - Holds notes.
2. DX7 - Holds notes.
3. Juno 106 - Holds notes.
4. JX3P - Doesn't hold notes.
5. Minimoog Voyager - Doesn't hold notes.
6. TX802 - Holds notes.

On the synths that hold notes, the only way to stop them sounding is to change patch. Even then, the Juno 106 holds the notes even when changing patches.

I don't know what the cause is but it isn't isolated to the SY/TG77.
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Old 12-20-2016, 05:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reapercurious View Post
thanks for the replies!

by the way, here's a free SY77/TG77 editor, using CTRLR.

http://ctrlr.org/yamaha-sy-tg77-editor/
That looks pretty cool.
They have panels for a number of my synths including SY77, DX7, Juno 106, Minimoog Voyager, JP08 (that one isn't a freebie but it is cheap) and even my JX3P which I modded with the Inque MIDI mod (their panel is designed specifically for this mod).

Another alternative that I've been using for a while now is the FM alive editors. These work with my SY77, DX7 and TX802.
http://www.fm-alive.com/
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:09 AM   #7
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try do not chase Note ON..

Some/many Synths and also diverse plugins which work within Polyphonic Multi Mode
"BTW: Do not confuse with POLY MODE"
(Some manufactures call this Mode
Polyphonic Glide like Clavia... other call the different Modes
Single/Limited Multi/Full Multi etc. etc .pp but this do not matter.

These only different named modes have one thing in common:
they need for every "Open" Note ON one corresponding Note OFF.
If this is not happen Notes would stuck.)

And within different situations REAPER send only one NOTE OFF no matter how many
NOTE ONS for the same Note Number were send at chasing before.

REAPERs main problem is his NOTE ON chasing behavior!

REAPER send a lot of NOTE ON (same Note Number during chasing---happens for example if you move the cursor during playback.. resizing the left edge during playback etc. etc. pp)

The option for do not chase MIDI Note ON solved some multi NOTE ON chase but not within all situations.. "resizing the left edge during playback for example
REAPER ignore the Option and always chase NOTE ONs.. this is not ok.. it is bad!!

I can show you with "of course only one example plugin" Zebra and XYZ preset that it is easy possible to do NOTE ON chasing during playback -- with resizing the left edge of course more than once^^--
until REAPER crash!!



Simply because Synths/plugin which work within polyphonic mode do not simple re-trigger the prev. Note envelope if they receive another NOTE ON same pitch,
like normally in DRUM XY machine mode would do.

but works for moving the Cursor like your stuck example.

REAPERs Note ON chasing behavior( multible NOTE ONs but only one NOTE OFF same Note No.) must be fixed.!

1.
Every open Note ON for the same NOTENo. need one corresponding Note OFF same Note No.!!

2.
It is absolute not necessary to chase notes at resizing the left item edge ..
What is the benefit of this?.. disable and one main problem is fixed

3.
if I disable NOTE ON chasing it should disable NOTE ON chasing within all and not only some situations!!

If not you can easy get stuck Notes or with XYZ plugin you can crash REAPER! -

Note ON chasing can make simply a lot of problems if the handling is not really correct..
It is maybe easier to complete disable NOTE On chasing or make the handling really correct.
A lot of USER simply works with MIDI events/items/seeking during playback, mostly within loops..,
so it is not really an option to prevent MIDI editing during playback no matter
if you never get stuck Notes within that situation as the result from bad chase behavior

At the end All Notes OFF would not help anymore you need to send ALL Sound OFF. or System reset^^ or with some plugins also possible you have to restart REAPER

The problem is not your TG77.. the problem stays within REAPER.
It is REAPERs main problem for "How to get stuck notes"^^
I know this a long long time but it is as it always is.. No fun or time or both ^^ to report
Attached Images
File Type: jpg crash-bcausebadnoteonchase-resizingleftedge.jpg (35.2 KB, 469 views)
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Last edited by ELP; 12-21-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:45 PM   #8
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Held notes here on following gear (up to date since latest 5.30):

TG-77 (Very often), AX-73 (sometimes), VX-90 (sometimes), D-550 (often), TX-81Z (sometimes), MKS-50 (often), CZ-1000 (often)

It does seem like Reaper has a hard time keeping track of the note off events when pressing stop or some mishaps, it doesn't seem to take good care at sending note offs to all the gear with still open notes.

So, every time, either I slam the keyboard with bunch of notes, or I have to turn it off.... Of course I have to spend for repairs on gear as the surge on power-on does impact components.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:32 AM   #9
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Most Note stuck have as a cause of origin REAPERs bad behavior regarding Note ON chase.

BTW: All your gear which you are listed works per default within Multi-trigger/polyphonic or whatever the different manufactures call this mode and it is not a fault it is of course a feature...

this multiple thing do not refers only for Hardware of course also for Plugins..

"""
It is really simple: every "Open" Note ON/same pitch/same channel need one corresponding NOTE OFF/same pitch/same channel event!!
"""
and within different Note ON chase and STOP situations REAPER send at the end only one Note OFF/same pitch/channel event no matter how many multiple Note ON/same pitch/channel event previously were send at chase/play- Stop before regular Note off event situations.
This is one really bad behavior!!

this behavior must be fix!.
it is an bug thing from beginning, meaning very old which need one or more ^^ quick fixes.
Please Justin or Schwa or both thank you


The lice show you one simple example what is happen with multiple NOTE ONs and only one corresponding NOTE OFF.
Only example Instrument plugins:

-Zebra is always within poly/glide mode -- result with only one corresponding NOTE OFF= stuck note this is possible until REAPEr crash

-Canvas is per default within limited Multi assign Mode which also need corresponding NOTE OFFs for every open Note ON-- if not result = stuck Note

-CRX4 is per default within single trigger which need only one NOTE OFF event, so the result is no stuck Note

For easy doing: First half shows overlapping events and what is happen if you stop before regular Note OFF events occur..

the second half show you one example left edge resize.. which produce a lot of multiple Note ONs no matter if chase Note ON is enable or not.. this is one complete bad bullshit REAPER behavior example..

These are only two examples from a lot I could report what and when it would happen with multi Note ONs with only one corresponding NOTE OFF.
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Last edited by ELP; 12-22-2016 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 12-22-2016, 07:28 AM   #10
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Hi,
Wow, you guys are fast.
A far as editors, I couldn't live w/o my Sound diver. Which is why I keep an old os 9 Mac in my system. And when...if... that dies, I will be keeping my xp machine. My rack mount stuff has almost never had their front panels touched.
Sorry for off topic.
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Old 12-22-2016, 08:08 AM   #11
reapercurious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,
Wow, you guys are fast.
A far as editors, I couldn't live w/o my Sound diver. Which is why I keep an old os 9 Mac in my system. And when...if... that dies, I will be keeping my xp machine. My rack mount stuff has almost never had their front panels touched.
Sorry for off topic.
you're not off topic.

by the way, i am on windows 7 64 and running soundiver.

CTRLR is going to take over eventually, never fear!
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Old 12-22-2016, 08:12 AM   #12
reapercurious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Most Note stuck have as a cause of origin REAPERs bad behavior regarding Note ON chase.

BTW: All your gear which you are listed works per default within Multi-trigger/polyphonic or whatever the different manufactures call this mode and it is not a fault it is of course a feature...

this multiple thing do not refers only for Hardware of course also for Plugins..

"""
It is really simple: every "Open" Note ON/same pitch/same channel need one corresponding NOTE OFF/same pitch/same channel event!!
"""
and within different Note ON chase and STOP situations REAPER send at the end only one Note OFF/same pitch/channel event no matter how many multiple Note ON/same pitch/channel event previously were send at chase/play- Stop before regular Note off event situations.
This is one really bad behavior!!

this behavior must be fix!.
it is an bug thing from beginning, meaning very old which need one or more ^^ quick fixes.
Please Justin or Schwa or both thank you


The lice show you one simple example what is happen with multiple NOTE ONs and only one corresponding NOTE OFF.
Only example Instrument plugins:

-Zebra is always within poly/glide mode -- result with only one corresponding NOTE OFF= stuck note this is possible until REAPEr crash

-Canvas is per default within limited Multi assign Mode which also need corresponding NOTE OFFs for every open Note ON-- if not result = stuck Note

-CRX4 is per default within single trigger which need only one NOTE OFF event, so the result is no stuck Note

For easy doing: First half shows overlapping events and what is happen if you stop before regular Note OFF events occur..

the second half show you one example left edge resize.. which produce a lot of multiple Note ONs no matter if chase Note ON is enable or not.. this is one complete bad bullshit REAPER behavior example..

These are only two examples from a lot I could report what and when it would happen with multi Note ONs with only one corresponding NOTE OFF.

Brilliant. Learned a lot, thanks.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:17 AM   #13
Dannii
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This is really informative stuff ELP, as usual with MIDI. Hope your responses lead to some REAPER tweaks from the dev team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Hi,
Wow, you guys are fast.
A far as editors, I couldn't live w/o my Sound diver. Which is why I keep an old os 9 Mac in my system. And when...if... that dies, I will be keeping my xp machine. My rack mount stuff has almost never had their front panels touched.
Sorry for off topic.
Do you know if it is still possible to obtain a legit copy of Sound Diver? I still have a working Mac G4 which dual boots OS9 and Tiger.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:26 AM   #14
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NP. and thank you

And one little example how the handling must be.. chase/moving item/moving cursor in between and or stop
before regular Note Offs occur..

Always and ever one corresponding Note OFF for every "open" Note ON/samePitch&channel
And never ever chase and send multiple Note ONs at resizing the left edge
There is simply no good reason for doing this^^
the result would be = mostly all or at least many stucks would simsalabim gone^^



BTW I have also Sounddiver running at win x86 &64... Cant let this gone^^

Yes hopefully ,"ReaDave : REAPER tweaks/bug fixes from the dev team"
REAPERs behavior now -at this stuff- must be really change!

REAPER is just too Top-good to allow such bullshit ^
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I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.

Last edited by ELP; 12-22-2016 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:11 AM   #15
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isn't it partially the Hardware synth's fault that it doesn't stop its voices when it receives an "all notes off" message?
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