the year for amp modeling

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

... but I wonder if it actually sounds better/more realistic than them. Axe and Kemper are much better than any L6 product as far as pick and dynamics response is concerned...

You know, there ARE devices around that sound 100% realistic INCLUDING when it comes to pick and dynamic response.

Just sayin'...

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

You know, there ARE devices around that sound 100% realistic INCLUDING when it comes to pick and dynamic response.

Just sayin'...

of course.. but I just put a track down in my concrete basement..with the dryer running, while my 5 yr old raced around in circles on his trike shouting "Hulk Smash"

I wonder how that track would have turned out with one of those devices hehe

[thequietroom]

come to think of it.. it would probably been pretty entertaining.. i do have a mic and a combo amp around here somewhere..

[Sam C]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

You know, there ARE devices around that sound 100% realistic INCLUDING when it comes to pick and dynamic response.

Just sayin'...

I don't agree. As good as software is getting it does not sound as good as an amp, decent mic and good or better than good mic pre.

I know how subjective these things can be. I know everyone cannot use a live amp...but the sound is still better than software.

Although, for the first time in my life, I read early in the thread someone say, software sounds better than live amps...different strokes, huh?

[thequietroom]

here we go

[minerman]

Damn dude, I saw you posted in this thread & thought you'd posted us some clips of the new rig......

[edkilp]

Originally Posted by Sam C

I don't agree. As good as software is getting it does not sound as good as an amp, decent mic and good or better than good mic pre.

I know how subjective these things can be. I know everyone cannot use a live amp...but the sound is still better than software.

Although, for the first time in my life, I read early in the thread someone say, software sounds better than live amps...different strokes, huh?

I'm inclined to think he WAS referring to real amps. But I might be wrong to assume to know what he was thinking. Much the same as being wrong to assume that what I think is best is what everyone else should think is best. A good amp with a good mic and even a stellar preamp can still sound like bird shit.

I bought a Blackstar HT-1 because I prefer the FEEL of a real amp to the feel of a sim. But it opens up a whole other can of worms for me now. Things like where do I wanna put the cabinet? Where do I put the mic? Do i wanna record it in a totally dead closet, or put it in my less-than-perfectly-treated room? Lots of variables, and using amp sims eliminates the headaches associated with your particular acoustic environment.

I still like the sound from my amp better than any sim I own, but I'd never go so far as to say that my setup is better than someone else's simulated rig. Far from it, because I'm still not totally happy with the sound I'm getting.

As you mentioned, it's all subjective, and the bottom line is finding YOUR ideal tone. If you can achieve a sound that fits your song, sits well in your mix, and you really dig it, I believe the source is irrelevant.

Hell, lately I've been running my acoustic through a distortion pedal, and I'm slowly shaping that into what may become a signature sound for me. I guess ya never know!

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by minerman

Damn dude, I saw you posted in this thread & thought you'd posted us some clips of the new rig......

Here's a short sample of a work in progress song..

I am going to re-track the guitars though.. this patch sounds good but I had a little more gain than I wanted

https://soundcloud.com/cakewalkgg/rift-sample

[edkilp]

That's sounding pretty damn brutal dude. I don't personally hear too much gain. I really like that tone a lot. If it's not quite where you want it to be, it will be very soon I bet.. very cool!

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by Sam C

I don't agree. As good as software is getting it does not sound as good as an amp, decent mic and good or better than good mic pre.

I know how subjective these things can be. I know everyone cannot use a live amp...but the sound is still better than software.

Although, for the first time in my life, I read early in the thread someone say, software sounds better than live amps...different strokes, huh?

I was referring to real amps.

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by thequietroom

of course.. but I just put a track down in my concrete basement..with the dryer running, while my 5 yr old raced around in circles on his trike shouting "Hulk Smash"

I wonder how that track would have turned out with one of those devices hehe

Ha! I hear ya, my friend. My previous mix space was the corner of a huge open rec room with dogs, video game systems, kids playing and generally lots of noise constantly... not to mention that they didn't really share my affinity for playing the same 30 second riff over and over and over and over and over...

Now I am reamping using a Radial box. It means that I have to find the right block of time to get it done, but it really is the best of both worlds (for me, YMMV, etc). I record using a sim using a tone that is in the ballpark of what I want so I can play the amp along with the guitar, but then swap it out for a real amp at mix time. I love it.

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by edkilp

I'm inclined to think he WAS referring to real amps. But I might be wrong to assume to know what he was thinking. Much the same as being wrong to assume that what I think is best is what everyone else should think is best. A good amp with a good mic and even a stellar preamp can still sound like bird shit.

I bought a Blackstar HT-1 because I prefer the FEEL of a real amp to the feel of a sim. But it opens up a whole other can of worms for me now. Things like where do I wanna put the cabinet? Where do I put the mic? Do i wanna record it in a totally dead closet, or put it in my less-than-perfectly-treated room? Lots of variables, and using amp sims eliminates the headaches associated with your particular acoustic environment.

I still like the sound from my amp better than any sim I own, but I'd never go so far as to say that my setup is better than someone else's simulated rig. Far from it, because I'm still not totally happy with the sound I'm getting.

As you mentioned, it's all subjective, and the bottom line is finding YOUR ideal tone. If you can achieve a sound that fits your song, sits well in your mix, and you really dig it, I believe the source is irrelevant.

Hell, lately I've been running my acoustic through a distortion pedal, and I'm slowly shaping that into what may become a signature sound for me. I guess ya never know!

Very well said, edkilp. I feel exactly the same. I think I said earlier in this thread that I do like amp sims a lot. HeadCase and S-Gear still see a lot of action from me. They are NOTHING like an amp in the room beside me though. That's just me, and I can appreciate and respect that others see it differently.

[The Telenator]

Clearly, this argument has no ONE answer, as it is all in the ear of the beholder ... But ...

personally? ...


I totally prefer the sound of REAL hardware amps and cabs in a real room or onstage live;

however, I totally prefer the sound of my amp sims and cabs (or leslie plugins) ON TRACKS when recorded. In a DAW, on tracks, etc., the sims win every time for me.

[Shm00ve]

I am looking forward to the day when the modeled amps sound more like the real thing than the real amps do.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

You know, there ARE devices around that sound 100% realistic INCLUDING when it comes to pick and dynamic response.

Just sayin'...

I know, but not everyone has the dough for one, and for replacing a bunch of tubes every 1-2 years. Not to mention the fragility of tube amps, etc.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by Shm00ve

I am looking forward to the day when the modeled amps sound more like the real thing than the real amps do.

The whole point is that some of us are saying that this time has arrived. For me, the sound I'm getting out of the sims I've been using, namely S-Gear and TH2, sounds worlds better and is much more real-amp sounding than the vast majority of what I am hearing as guitar playing on CDs, radio and very often live settings.

Got to remember that just 'cause someone is playing guitar through a hardware amp it can still sound like dog doo if the user doesn't know squat about setting a great tube amp properly. I hear this disaster all the time.

[thequietroom]

To be fair, the topic really goes beyond "amp Modeling"

Obviously a software model of a real amp has to, by definition, fall short of being an exact copy.. same with speaker simulation..

A more practical comparison is "when does a modeling solution sound better than an amp solution"

I have historically been a pretty basic guitarist as far as tones go. I have nearly always had a rythme, lead, and clean tone.. thats about it.

so far after a month or so of the Axe FX, I have (work in progress) 3 lead tones, 2 clean tones, and one rythme tone.

Still pretty basic.


I looked at my rythme patch though, and even though I thought it was pretty straight forward, I have a gate>compressor>drive>amp>cab>filter>PEQ. Lead and cleans have a few more blocks...

Bypassing any of the blocks (except the delay on the lead tone.. i dont record delay) and i am not totally happy with the tone. This is not to imply that it is elusive to get a good tone in the axefx.. These blocks were intuitive to find and used to get that I think is "just right" tone. None of these extra blocks are in there to make it sound more realistic..

I didn't spend endless hours tweaking.. but still there is a signal chain there to get tones im pretty stoked with.

The point is, this "solution" includes more than "amp" modeling.. and the "real world" version of this signal chain is more than an amp/mic/ and a mic pre

In my setup, sitting at my desk jamming, with a lead tone with a perfectly sculpted reverb and delay for the track I'm jamming too.. sounds better than than what the modeled amp would if I were plugged into it.

By the time I strung up all the pedals and what not to reproduce the entire signal chain, there is so many new variables its unlikely it will sound as good as the axefx does.

look.. I love amps.. and pedals.. had many many of them. Truth is, there are some legit processors out.. (maybe 3 now), that objective guitarists may actually prefer the sound/playing experience of over a amp.


This last statement is why I ressurected the thread.. if nothing else.. this is a cool ass looking rack unit, and based on the specs it probably will huddle up to the other 2 units at the top.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...ts-guitar-rack

[minerman]

That's weird about the new Line 6 thing QR, I was just about to post about it...

All these modelers, ampsims, real amps, pedals, etc, to me, are just tools to use. For me, some are great, and some, not so much. But we've all gotta do what we gotta do in order to get the tones we're after IMO, there's no right or wrong, only the end result matters...

FWIW, I still use Guitar Rig 5, Amplitube 3, etc on a daily basis. The way I use these are like a pedalboard or rack system. I still use my real amps (matter of fact, my Ceriatone's EL34's are cooking right now), but I don't have any of the effects these ampsims offer. You'd be surprised how good some of them sound ran through a real amp, like a wah. Plus, using automation, you have total control over how the effect sounds/reacts...

I re-amp "as I go", meaning I'll record my di track along with my amp track, so if I wanna change the sound later, I can. Using a wah from GR5/AT3 on the di track is basically like having a real wah going through your amp IMO. The Boss SD-1 emulation in AT3 is so close that it's really hard to tell the difference (and yes, I've A/B'd with my real pedal) when ran through a real amp...But, some of these software effects don't sound good ran through a real amp, you just have to roll up your sleeves & find what works for you, & what doesn't....

Here's a short, shitty clip of the talkbox simulation in GR5 ran through my Ceriatone, ISO Cab (V30...late at night) & '57...I'll re-amp through my 4x12 once I get the automation lined out, but it'll give you an idea of the possibilities...

talkbox attempt

Is it a 100% spot-on copy/sound of a talkbox??? Definitely not, but a lot of the shortcoming is my fault, as I'm still learning how to tweak this stuff, so I know it can be much better than this example...

Myself, I'd love to have a Fractal or Kemper, but I just can't swing the $$$ right now. Maybe someday, but right now, there's just no way...

Your track sounded good btw QR, thanks for posting that up for me...

[Sam C]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

I was referring to real amps.

Sorry about that. When I read, "devices" I made an assumption.

And, I'm not trying to start any wars. But I believe a live amp mic'd up sounds best... And I guess I must qualify mic'd up properly.

[kindafishy]

You know guys, this is just about the coolest thread I have ever seen on people discussing amps and sims. Great opinions, respect and open mindedness across the board.

I often see opinions that 'the REAPER forums are different'. I'm just in the mood to pause for a moment and appreciate that it is folks just like ALL of the contributors to this thread that make it this way.

*sniff*... I love you guys, man.


...no, I haven't been drinking .

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by Sam C

Sorry about that. When I read, "devices" I made an assumption.

And, I'm not trying to start any wars. But I believe a live amp mic'd up sounds best... And I guess I must qualify mic'd up properly.

yep.. i think most guitarist.. if they had to pick the best of the best tones they ever heard recorded.. will find that they originated from a mic'd up amp most if not all of the time.




then they could match it on a kemper or axefx and grin ear to ear for days

[minerman]

Yep, great forum, very helpful members, & I rarely ever see anyone get into an online battle like most forums...

So, was my talkbox emulation that bad guys??? I was kinda hoping for some ideas about how it sounded...lol...

I plan on eventually getting a Fractal, but it's gonna be on down the road a ways...I think I'd like it better than the Kemper simply because of all the effects it's got built-in...

[thequietroom]

Originally Posted by minerman

Yep, great forum, very helpful members, & I rarely ever see anyone get into an online battle like most forums...

So, was my talkbox emulation that bad guys??? I was kinda hoping for some ideas about how it sounded...lol...

I plan on eventually getting a Fractal, but it's gonna be on down the road a ways...I think I'd like it better than the Kemper simply because of all the effects it's got built-in...

I just listened to it. I've never tried a talkbox before..so i'm probably not the best to judge. To me it sounds good. The other main tones sound really good.

[minerman]

Originally Posted by thequietroom

I just listened to it. I've never tried a talkbox before..so i'm probably not the best to judge. To me it sounds good. The other main tones sound really good.

Thanks man, that's the "talk wah" in GR5 ran through my Ceriatone > V30 > SM57, with some delay & 'verb added post-amp...

I appreciate the compliments on the other tones too, same amp, different cab (4x12)/speaker (G12-65) & a Sennheiser e609...

Myself, I think it'll be virtually impossible to emulate a real talkbox considering all the variables involved with the real thing vs. the emulation, but I think I can get it a lot better...thanks again dude...

[Shm00ve]

Originally Posted by Shm00ve

I am looking forward to the day when the modeled amps sound more like the real thing than the real amps do.

Originally Posted by The Telenator

The whole point is that some of us are saying that this time has arrived. For me, the sound I'm getting out of the sims I've been using, namely S-Gear and TH2, sounds worlds better and is much more real-amp sounding than the vast majority of what I am hearing as guitar playing on CDs, radio and very often live settings.

Got to remember that just 'cause someone is playing guitar through a hardware amp it can still sound like dog doo if the user doesn't know squat about setting a great tube amp properly. I hear this disaster all the time.

Lol... I was just trying to make a joke.
How could anything ever sound MORE like the real thing than the real thing?

I do get what you mean though. My amp has been collecting dust for 3 years now. These days I am all S-Gear at home and and on stage it's my POD HD500 into a Line 6 Stagesource L3t. Sounds great and setup is quick and easy.

[The Telenator]

Originally Posted by Shm00ve

How could anything ever sound MORE like the real thing than the real thing?

It begs the question: Which IS the 'real thing'?

I think we've entered this weird zone where it's better to think of it as a choice than as real vs. software. Younger players coming into this in the next few years -- perhaps even now -- probably won't be having these types of debates or discussions. There will probably be very many 10 years from now who have never actually played through a hardware amp, just like the many who have never heard a vinyl record playing.

For some of them, it will likely be the expense of owning a great hardware amp that keeps them in software. To be honest, as much as I do like the sounds I'm getting lately from my guitar's software chain, it is the ease of the setup that also has great appeal -- i.e., to some degree I am lazy. Having made this confession, though, it is the very acceptable sound that remains the deciding, controlling factor. I'm very happy with how it sounds, which is something I thought I might never say about 4 years ago when I first checked out the amp sims available then -- how things have changed and fast!

[thequietroom]

Time to re-incarnate this one

Line 6 Helix and Fractal Axe 8 were shown at the LA amp show.

Their availbality is right around the corner.. although i think the Helix may be available first.. I havent seen any dates for the Axe8 yet and there may be a wait list.

If I was still a gigging musician, these would be the shizzle.

The Axe8 has the Axefx 2 tone. Same code, same converters. There are some minor limits on the FX and only one amp sim, vs the Axe 2 but it is basically the mini Axefx 2 in a pedalboard for 1399.. pretty impressive

I'm anxious to hear how the Helix is recieved. It is feature rich.. that is certain.

[solaris1982]

I believe the Helix is shipping as of yesterday. I will have money for one in late February. I will have one as soon as I get the cash for it. This thing looks (and from what I can tell - sounds) amazing. I downloaded the manual from Line 6's website. The routing alone makes me want it. Anything can be sent anywhere. A useful studio tool. Couple that with the sounds I've heard on youtube, and you have a winner.