MIDI: Is it worth learning how to send/receive messages?

[K8ch]

Hi,

I've been using MIDI for a long time...but on a very basic level that doesn't go beyond editing my midi notes.


Recently, I was told that by learning how to send/receive MIDI messages, that I can make my tracks sound more realistic.
So, I started to look this info, in order to teach myself...but I find that it's pretty darned confusing...


So, the question is: IS it worth it to learn how to use MIDI messages?

Reaper automation might be able to do a lot of the things that MIDI messages can do (and a lot easier).
Program changes can't be automated, but setting up a duplicate track with the new patch is easy...and I would simply keep it muted until it was needed...so that would be a simple work-around.


What do you think?
What kind of things can one do with MIDI messages, that can't be done with Reaper automation or SWS extensions?


I am -very- interested in your opinions, so please take a moment to respond.

Thank you, in advance, for any insight you can provide.




Peace,
K8ch

[Ollie]

Not sure I understood your post right but...

Using automation (often meaning using MIDI CC to automate knobs changing a parameter) as a substitute for using MIDI CC to control parameters is an (all IMHO) unnecessary and not so recommendable detour which just adds complexity instead of making things easier, beginning with giving up the convenience of editing controller data in close context with the notes vs. having to copy automation lanes around (which are best used for the audio side).

So maybe you should ask yourself "what can I do with automation that can't be done with CC lanes" instead. The only thing you have to do is finding out what knob/parameter is wired to what CC# (instruments with predefined CC mappings often come with a document listing them) or mapping them yourself.

As for the realism, there are not so many knobs/parameters to twiddle usually, depending on what you're trying to achieve. Realism starts with the knowledge of playing techniques, "what is the instrument I'm going to simulate doing in real life actually, how do they play it and are there really 2 miles long violin bows for 2 inch short violins" and the like. The other part is learning what (phrases/chops/licks) these instruments typically play.

From there you may find that in most cases it's all coming down to 1-4 CC lanes (unless you're dealing with orchestral music) for most instruments, depending on the instrument: Pitch, modulation (wheel) targeting pitch, timbre or amplitude (=volume), volume ("expression"), and timbre. Pitch and modulation wheels don't need any assignment on most instruments (and the instrument patch is defining what's the target of the mod wheel).

For a piano, you don't need any of those but you might need the hold pedal, for an upright bass it could be nice to create slides + little pitch impurities on some notes (using the pitch wheel), for brass sections you may want to control overall volume and timbre (e.g. for sforzando) and modulation (vibrato and/or tremolo) while a hammond organ can be as easy as controlling nothing, or just volume (CC#7 in most cases) and the leslie speed (often pre-mapped to the mod wheel) and you can go the whole way and also use the scanner vibrato and percussion knobs and 2x8 drawbars each with its own CC lane...I think you get the idea.

[ivansc]

Yep - learning the control codes will open up a whole new world of expressiveness to you.
And none of it is difficult

[lowellben]

Yes. MIDI is a next-level sorta thing Learn it. Love it. See the results.

[multivits]

My experience is very frustrating with MIDI, All I want to do is start an external drum machine and have it in sync with the drum rhythms on the arturia laboratory VST plugin in Reaper.

I have tried all manner of configurations and read all the technical set ups for the Korg, Arturia Lab and Reaper much as I could before my eyes glazed over.

I expected it to be straight forward but now nobody seems to know how to get MIDI to do this (I have posted on these forums Korg, Arturia, Reaper, RecordingStudio.com)

So my view is don't rely on MIDI to do what you want, because it may not work out.


Multivits

[Mink99]

Originally Posted by multivits

My experience is very frustrating with MIDI, All I want to do is start an external drum machine and have it in sync with the drum rhythms on the arturia laboratory VST plugin in Reaper.

I have tried all manner of configurations and read all the technical set ups for the Korg, Arturia Lab and Reaper much as I could before my eyes glazed over.

You might have chosen a way to describe your problem, sp that nobody you had a chance to find out what you wanted to achieve.
Syncing an external instrument through midi has got nothing to do with "learning midi" and usually is a matter of 3 clicks and a cable connection.
But maybe I am also mislead.

[K8ch]

Hello everyone...


Thank you, for sharing your thoughts about this.
I appreciate it.


Multivits... I'm not sure about your specific challenges in this regard, but I hope you figure it out soon.
Still, I appreciate your warnings.



Ivansc and Lowellben... Thank you for your encouragement. It is appreciated.



Ollie... I get the idea...but then, I don't.

I agree 100% with that realism starts with really understanding the instrument.

I'm not familiar w/CC lanes...or CC anything, for that matter.
I know it stands for "Continuous Controller", but I have no idea how to access it (or change it).

I don't use any hardware synths...only VSTi's, soundfonts and (maybe) a software synth or two.


Is it safe to say that I don't need any additional programs/software (other than Reaper) to fully utilize the MIDI possibilities?
If I -DO- need additional software, what would you recommend?



Will I be able to do the following:


-- Change all F# notes in this track and raise them an octave. Take all "G" notes in this track and change them to "C".
-- Take all notes that are more than 10% off the beat in this track and move them onto the nearest beat except for triplets.
-- Take all notes that are less than 50% of max volume and increase them by 133%.
-- Copy all notes below middle C on this piano track and merge them into the cello track
-- Take all notes that are less than a 16th-note duration and erase them from this track
-- Change measures 8-24 from staccato to 80% legato in strings and woodwinds
-- Have each consecutive note on only the the "G" string of the guitar alternate between 80% pan left and 80% pan right, while consecutive notes of only the "D" string do the opposite at 60%
-- Change the vocal harmony from males above the melody to females below the melody
-- Take measure 10-20, in the ride cymbal and change it to swing time, and double the volume of the second pulse of each triplet.
-- Make the saxophone connect notes via portmanteau only in measures 3-10
-- Slow the tempo by 10% over measure 12-15, pause 2 beats, then back to original tempo plus 10%.
-- Change meter to 7/4 in measure 12, them back to 4/4 in measure 15, then change key signature to Eb in the bridge and transpose all tracks to that key except for percussion.
-- As I play this keyboard (or guitar) track, if you hear any note not in the C-minor scale, ignore it.
-- Change all rolled piano chords to non-rolled chords.
-- Change the small ride cymbal to large sizzle cymbal with every second beat hit on the bell rather than the edge





Peace,

K8ch

[Tod]

Originally Posted by multivits

My experience is very frustrating with MIDI, All I want to do is start an external drum machine and have it in sync with the drum rhythms on the arturia laboratory VST plugin in Reaper.

Hi multivits, this is a little confusing. What it sounds like your saying is that you want to sync the sequencer in the external drum machine to midi that is already recorded in the arturia laboratory VST plugin.

I'm sure that's not what you mean but I'm confused as to what you do mean? Maybe you mean you want to trigger sounds from the arturia laboratory VST with sequences that are programmed in the drum machine, could that be it?

Just trying to understand.

[Mink99]

Hi k8ch

Do you want to do this manually or do you expect any automated feature.

For example

Change all f# notes in a track and raise them an octave :

Dumb method (as I do it) (manually)

open the midi editor , select all f# notes with the mouse and press 12 times control + cursor up.

Intelligent method :

Use something like https://code.google.com/p/midi-shape-shifter/ or
http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=pizmidi

[dea-man]

Originally Posted by K8ch

Hello everyone...


Thank you, for sharing your thoughts about this.
I appreciate it.


Multivits... I'm not sure about your specific challenges in this regard, but I hope you figure it out soon.
Still, I appreciate your warnings.



Ivansc and Lowellben... Thank you for your encouragement. It is appreciated.



Ollie... I get the idea...but then, I don't.

I agree 100% with that realism starts with really understanding the instrument.

I'm not familiar w/CC lanes...or CC anything, for that matter.
I know it stands for "Continuous Controller", but I have no idea how to access it (or change it).

I don't use any hardware synths...only VSTi's, soundfonts and (maybe) a software synth or two.


Is it safe to say that I don't need any additional programs/software (other than Reaper) to fully utilize the MIDI possibilities?
If I -DO- need additional software, what would you recommend?



Will I be able to do the following:


-- Change all F# notes in this track and raise them an octave. Take all "G" notes in this track and change them to "C".
-- Take all notes that are more than 10% off the beat in this track and move them onto the nearest beat except for triplets.
-- Take all notes that are less than 50% of max volume and increase them by 133%.
-- Copy all notes below middle C on this piano track and merge them into the cello track
-- Take all notes that are less than a 16th-note duration and erase them from this track
-- Change measures 8-24 from staccato to 80% legato in strings and woodwinds
-- Have each consecutive note on only the the "G" string of the guitar alternate between 80% pan left and 80% pan right, while consecutive notes of only the "D" string do the opposite at 60%
-- Change the vocal harmony from males above the melody to females below the melody
-- Take measure 10-20, in the ride cymbal and change it to swing time, and double the volume of the second pulse of each triplet.
-- Make the saxophone connect notes via portmanteau only in measures 3-10
-- Slow the tempo by 10% over measure 12-15, pause 2 beats, then back to original tempo plus 10%.
-- Change meter to 7/4 in measure 12, them back to 4/4 in measure 15, then change key signature to Eb in the bridge and transpose all tracks to that key except for percussion.
-- As I play this keyboard (or guitar) track, if you hear any note not in the C-minor scale, ignore it.
-- Change all rolled piano chords to non-rolled chords.
-- Change the small ride cymbal to large sizzle cymbal with every second beat hit on the bell rather than the edge





Peace,

K8ch

Most of these requests are done within Reaper's Midi Editor, or Reaper itself, and have nothing to do with CC's.

[K8ch]

Originally Posted by dea-man

Most of these requests are done within Reaper's Midi Editor, or Reaper itself, and have nothing to do with CC's.

dea-man..

Do you know how to do these things, in Reaper?
Would it involve a painstaking process of editing each and every note?
Are these things that are done with SWS Extensions?



I am curious about your nick: "dea-man.
Are you with the DEA? That's got to be a very interesting (and difficult) job.


Peace,

K8ch
https://soundcloud.com/K8ch

[K8ch]

Originally Posted by Mink99

Hi k8ch

Do you want to do this manually or do you expect any automated feature.

For example

Change all f# notes in a track and raise them an octave :

Dumb method (as I do it) (manually)

open the midi editor , select all f# notes with the mouse and press 12 times control + cursor up.

Intelligent method :

Use something like https://code.google.com/p/midi-shape-shifter/ or
http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=pizmidi

Hi Mink...

Thanks for responding!


I'd like to know if there are shortcuts, rather than having to edit each and every note.
I do the very same thing you do (but probably not as well). It's can make big editing jobs are real laborious task...but it's all I know.
I'd like to find out if there are shortcuts to these sorts of commands.


At first glance, the MIDI shape-shifter looks really great!
I gotta give that a shot. Thank you !!

Are there any other programs out there, that do this kind of thing?


I really appreciate your letting me know about MidiShapeShifter!



Peace,

K8ch
https://soundcloud.com/K8ch

[Tod]

Originally Posted by K8ch

Will I be able to do the following:


-- Change all F# notes in this track and raise them an octave. Take all "G" notes in this track and change them to "C".
-- Take all notes that are more than 10% off the beat in this track and move them onto the nearest beat except for triplets.
-- Take all notes that are less than 50% of max volume and increase them by 133%.
-- Copy all notes below middle C on this piano track and merge them into the cello track
-- Take all notes that are less than a 16th-note duration and erase them from this track
-- Change measures 8-24 from staccato to 80% legato in strings and woodwinds
-- Have each consecutive note on only the the "G" string of the guitar alternate between 80% pan left and 80% pan right, while consecutive notes of only the "D" string do the opposite at 60%
-- Change the vocal harmony from males above the melody to females below the melody
-- Take measure 10-20, in the ride cymbal and change it to swing time, and double the volume of the second pulse of each triplet.
-- Make the saxophone connect notes via portmanteau only in measures 3-10
-- Slow the tempo by 10% over measure 12-15, pause 2 beats, then back to original tempo plus 10%.
-- Change meter to 7/4 in measure 12, them back to 4/4 in measure 15, then change key signature to Eb in the bridge and transpose all tracks to that key except for percussion.
-- As I play this keyboard (or guitar) track, if you hear any note not in the C-minor scale, ignore it.
-- Change all rolled piano chords to non-rolled chords.
-- Change the small ride cymbal to large sizzle cymbal with every second beat hit on the bell rather than the edge

Heh heh, you've got some pretty explicit things in that list. I have no doubt you can do them all in Reaper but not at the push of a button.

The thing about Reaper is that you can customize it a great deal so it better fits your own workflow.

Reaper's midi has a few flukes that bother me some but the way I've got it customized for my self, I couldn't live without it.

[K8ch]

Thanks, Tod!

I haven't gotten very involved with MIDI controls/manipulation...or SWS Extensions, for that matter.
Guess I really have to sit down and start learning...


Peace,
K8ch

[dea-man]

Am I to understand that you just want to accomplish the things in your list, but that they do not neccessarily need to be done by midi, right?

For instance, on the first item:

Open the midi editor and right click on the note in the piano roll keyboard on the left hand side of the screen, and this selects all the notes in that row.

Use the arrows on the number pad to make these selected notes go up or down.

There is also an action for raising midi events by an octave.

[dea-man]

On the second item:

That is Quantization, and Reaper can even paint notes in, according to the grid (Triplets, Dotted, Swing)by holding (Ctrl+Alt) which changes the curser to a paintbrush.

[multivits]

Originally Posted by Mink99

You might have chosen a way to describe your problem, sp that nobody you had a chance to find out what you wanted to achieve.
Syncing an external instrument through midi has got nothing to do with "learning midi" and usually is a matter of 3 clicks and a cable connection.
But maybe I am also mislead.

I would disagree that using MIDI synchronisation and MIDI transport controls is not part of learning MIDI, how can it not be!

My posts on what I am trying to achieve:

"send a MIDI out to start / stop a drum machine"
"Korg D1200 rhythm sync"

And unfortunately your response is exactly the type I would expect to get, "Just plug it in, it will work" well is doesn't work, and not Arturia Support or the Arturia Users Forum, Reaper, Korg or RecordingStudioCentral Forums, where I have posted this problem, have any suggestions excpet one private message and helpful individual. But it still isn't working.

It would be helpful if I could post an image of my set up, to clarify things.

In the past I have connected a Yamaha PS280 (using the rhythm), Korg D1200 (using the rhythm), and a DR Rhythm drum m/ce together and started them with the Korg as master using MIDI (essentially 3 drum machines in perfect sync), so its not like I don't know how to make MIDI sync and transport control work.

My suggestion to anyone who has an idea to use MIDI in some way is to do the extra reasearch before shelling out cash on equipment that can't do what you want it to do (without lots of distracting work -which is the opposite of just plug it in it will work).

Just having a MIDI I/O on your gear doesn't guarantee you can achieve everything with MIDI.

IMHO
Multivits

[Tod]

Originally Posted by multivits

My posts on what I am trying to achieve:

"send a MIDI out to start / stop a drum machine"
"Korg D1200 rhythm sync"

Hi multivits,

I'm still confused as to what you want to do?

You want to sync a drum machine to Reaper? Or do you want to sync Reaper to the drum machine?

At the same time you want to use some synth VSTis?

I have to assume the drum machine has a sequencer as well as the drum sounds/samples.

Have you tried Midi Time Code (MTC) or Song Position Pointer (SSP)?

[multivits]

Its complex

I am exhausted trying to explain it. Heres some pseudo code depiction

computer (Reaper)- (USB)Arturia Laboratory VST Mode - (MIDI) Korg D1200 drum rhythms.

Wish I could post a picture. trouble was
(USB)Arturia Laboratory Stand alone Mode- (MIDI) Korg D1200 drum rhythms.

didn't make drum go/stop so Arturia said you need a DAW coz the Arturia Laboratory don't put out any MIDI sync.

Given up here doing it all manually.

TIA
Multivits

[Mink99]

don't give up, help is on the way....

the arturia stuff consists of two pieces : a keyboard and a vst plugin

you can connect the keyboard to the computer (via usb) and control any vst from it, including the arturia plugin.

the drum box needs a midi clock , delivered by an old fashioned 5 pole din plug. reaper is able to deliver clock data to any of the connected midi ports (in preferences - midi ports - enable send clock/spp to device). so if the port that the drum box is connected to is visible to reaper, synchronizing them will work.

where is the drum box connected to ?

[multivits]

I am using the rhythms of the D1200 as the drum box and it is connected to the Arturia Lab hardware keyboard using MIDI and I am running the Arturia Lab as a VST plugin in Reaper.

I have successfully started the Reaper tracks playing when starting the play button on the D1200, so there is some MIDI getting from the D1200 through the Arturia Lab hardware keyboard and into Reaper.

Arturia have told me now that the rhythm pads of the lab can't put out any MMC to trigger any controls. I am quering them if the rhythm pads of the lab can be triggered from an external midi source.

It seems I may be close, but yet so far.

TIA

Multivits

[Tod]

Originally Posted by multivits

I am using the rhythms of the D1200 as the drum box and it is connected to the Arturia Lab hardware keyboard using MIDI and I am running the Arturia Lab as a VST plugin in Reaper.

I have successfully started the Reaper tracks playing when starting the play button on the D1200, so there is some MIDI getting from the D1200 through the Arturia Lab hardware keyboard and into Reaper.

Arturia have told me now that the rhythm pads of the lab can't put out any MMC to trigger any controls. I am quering them if the rhythm pads of the lab can be triggered from an external midi source.

It seems I may be close, but yet so far.

Hi multivits, don't give up. At this point I am still very confused.

After doing a little googling , it appears the Arturia is a Keyboard controller and also has some VSTi software. I also googled the Korg D1200 and it appears to be some kind of a hardware multi recording device. The keyboard does not have any sounds itself, the synths are all in the software.

What all does this Korg D1200 do, does it also have a sequencer built into it, and does it have drum sound built into it?

First of all there is no reason to control the Arturia with any time code. Few, if any, keyboard controllers have time code capabilities unless they might have a built in sequencer.

So now it boils down to the Korg D1200, it must have a sequencer built into it right? Otherwise you have no reason for time code at all unless you have recorded a song with it and you want to sync it up to Reaper for that reason, however you haven't mentioned anything about that.

So this is what we have:_________________

Your Arturia is just a midi keyboard controller and has no sounds. It does come with VSTi software but that's not important right now. There is no reason to control the Arturia with time code.

The question now is the Korg D1200, what it has and what it is that you want to do with it?
____________________________________

There are different scenarios here depending on what exactly you're trying to do.

[multivits]

The Arturia Lab MIDI keyboard can be used in either standalone mode i.e. as a hybrid synth connected to the PC using USB and running the Arturia Lab software on the PC and extracting the sounds out from the PC with the soundcard.

or with the Arturia Lab MIDI keyboard and the lab software running as a VST in a DAW and extracting the sounds out from the PC with the soundcard.

The D1200 has built in drum machine and midi I/O interfaces.

I am trying to trigger the start of the drums in the Korg when I start the drums on Arturia Lab (these can be started by the pads on the hardware Arturia MIDI keyboard or in the Arturia Lab software on the PC.

OR Visa Versa (trigger the start the drums on the Arturia Lab by starting the Korg D1200 drum)

I am starting to think this is not technically possible.

TIA

Multivits

[Mink99]

The d1200 is this one, right ? http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0.../korgd1200.asp

This d1200 can be synchronized via MMC, MTC (d1200 manual p80)

From The reaper manual:

Sending Timecode

Sending MTC can happen in three ways.

First, you can set up a MIDI port to send MTC in the Preferences page Midi Devices, which is further detailed on the same section of the manual as mentioned above.

Second you can place a SMPTE LTC/MTC Timecode Generator item in the timeline. This command can be found in the Insert menu. You can configure the item, which can be trimmed out as far as one wants, by accessing the source properties of the item, accessible in the context menu of item or via the default shortcut CTRL+F2(Windows).

Third, you can use the JS plugin vVIMTC (virtual Vertical Interleave MIDI Timecode Generator) which you can pick up in this thread. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...&highlight=mtc
That JS plugin will send a highly configurable MTC timecode out even when your transport is stopped, making it rather handy for external video players.

Now, all you need is a midi interface to connect the d1200 to reaper.... Could you provide a screenshot of the reaper midi configuration (preferences)


But for starting all "at once" you need to start recording or playing in or from reaper , not on the keyboard. Reaper will then send the start & clock /sync signal to the Arthurian plugins and the d1200...

[ivansc]

This works. At one time I was synching two fostex hard disk recorders via MTC with reaper. But it was a long time ago and if I remember rightly there was an issue with the Fostexes not wanting to slave to reaper.
I was forced to run Reaper from the Fostex`s MIDI synch.
Which in your case (D2100 as master) would not work.

Soo...if that doesn`t do what you want, there is an issue elsewhere in your MIDI chain.

[k!lowatt]

Kind of a different use for sending MIDI, but I wrote a VST plugin that consumes hierarchical chord progression structures via XML and spins up lists of MIDI noteon/noteoff messages accordingly. I don't really do any recording; I use the SHOUTcast plugin to stream the resulting audio live 24/7, which you can hear at http://www.staggeredlaboratories.com