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Old 07-26-2007, 08:05 PM   #1
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Default Closing fx window shouldn't be a state in undo history ...

If I open an fx chain window on a track, it doesn't get entered as a separate state in undo history, but if I close the same window it does (close fx chain config).

This causes problems when you go back and forth in history. If doing so causes an fx chain window to become closed, then that state gets entered into undo history and all other entries beyond that point are permanently lost.

I've brought this up a couple of times before - it'd be great if "Close FX Chain Config" was not a state in undo history.

I believe Dandruff was with me on this when I brought it up before....
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:48 PM   #2
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I am ok with it if there wee edits made to the chain or FX within it. Otherwise, it should not be in the undo history. same for any window. IMHO.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:21 PM   #3
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Even if you make changes to a chain or fx the actual closing of the window shouldn't be a "state". The fx/chain changes themselves are seperate "states" - and get entered into undo history as "add fx to chain", or "FX parameter adjustment".

But my point is, not only is this not needed, it really can cause one to permanently lose a bunch of work, so I really can't emphasize enough that this should be taken care of at some point.
I can't think of anything else in Reaper that can backfire on you quite like this can.

Try opening an fx window, make some parameter adjustments, close the window, move a couple of faders, then open another fx window and make a couple more adjustments, then move a couple of faders again. Open the undo history window and start moving around in history, back and forth between the various states. Sooner or later you'll see that a bunch of the undo history will disappear, only from having moved back and forth.... this simply should not happen. Eliminating "Close FX Chain Config" as a history "state" will prevent this from happening.
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:52 AM   #4
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but it is handy to have the FX window pop back open when stepping back through the history, especially if it is the FA tweak you want to undo and re-adjust.
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:10 AM   #5
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I believe Dandruff was with me on this when I brought it up before....
yeah, i hate this stuff! of course it should be optional.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:48 PM   #6
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I'm glad we now have a pref option to "Create undo points for item/track selection" & "for loop selection" (which will remain off here!) but I think we need a whole section to please everyone really, because I totally agree that the "close window" stage should be optional and there are other cases.

I have this same question about Solo/Mute being stored... I change an effect parameter, solo the track to hear it better, decide I don't like it and undo unsolo's the track as the first step. Just seems wrong to me.

But the king of wrongness(!) in the undo chain is "Adjust Track Volume (via Surface)". I move my mixing desk faders around all the time to check how things I'm tweaking are sounding and when I undo I find myself going back through a series of fader movements. I'd love to be able to exclude the mixer altogether.

I hope you didn't mind me adding these points in this thread - to save starting a second similar one. In the end I hope it's a shared request to add more undo history options - and now we have an exciting bunch of new undo/redo features it would be great to have them altogether in prefs.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:52 PM   #7
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I have this same question about Solo/Mute being stored... I change an effect parameter, solo the track to hear it better, decide I don't like it and undo unsolo's the track as the first step. Just seems wrong to me.

But the king of wrongness(!) in the undo chain is "Adjust Track Volume (via Surface)". I move my mixing desk faders around all the time to check how things I'm tweaking are sounding and when I undo I find myself going back through a series of fader movements. I'd love to be able to exclude the mixer altogether.
i also hate these things.
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:13 AM   #8
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wouldn't it be cool if undo was categorized as trees for edits - ctrl+z a branch for parameter tweaks - ctrl+shift+z one for midi edits - ctrl+alt+z and another for mixer - ctrl+alt+shift+z?

then we could step back as we wanted... undo fader movements after tweaking FX. Then undo edits and leave the FX and fader schtuff in tact...

imagine the possibilities!
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:59 AM   #9
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I hope you didn't mind me adding these points in this thread - to save starting a second similar one. In the end I hope it's a shared request to add more undo history options - and now we have an exciting bunch of new undo/redo features it would be great to have them altogether in prefs.
Not at all, Drew, I totally agree with you that it would be great to have more undo history options in prefs.

Hey, you're not the same Drew that worked at - what was it, Syncro? in Boston are you? If you are, you did a teensy bit of work for my band many years ago....
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Old 07-28-2007, 03:43 PM   #10
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Excellent!

By the way I'm not the same Drew - curious to know what gave the impression that I might be though!
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:02 PM   #11
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Just a long shot.... I don't reckon there are a ton of engineers named Drew out there, you seem as though you have quite a bit of experience, and you're one of the more reliably knowledgeable posters here with consistently good observations and suggestions.

The guy I worked with is Drew Townson (sp?), and he was a great engineer and I think he worked at Syncro Sound, which was The Cars studio in Boston, though it was 23 years ago and my memory of it has waned somewhat, and I could be wrong about which studio he worked at.
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:41 AM   #12
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Ah no - not I sir. Someone else's history!

Unless someone has performed an undo on my history(you see what I did there?!)

I've never been called reliably knowledgeable before - I must tell my mum!

Incidentally I hope you're not the same casualty I heard about yesterday :|

So getting back on track...

I'm guessing Close FX Chain Config is there as a way of getting the window to re-open as you step backwards, since I presume same changes that were before that point require the window to be open. So the ideal thing would be an option to skip that point I presume?

As for solo, mute, volume changes and "Adjust Track Volume (via Surface)" - I'd love to see all of those having seperate checkbox options to store or ignore those changes in the history - ie not include them at all.
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Old 08-02-2007, 12:44 PM   #13
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Ah no - not I sir. Someone else's history!

Unless someone has performed an undo on my history(you see what I did there?!)
Ouch! LOL! Ummm, yeah.

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Incidentally I hope you're not the same casualty I heard about yesterday :|
Uh oh, what'd I do now, hehe??

Hmmm...me too, I guess? Gee that doesn't sound all that good... which Casualty might that be, I'm wondering?

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I'm guessing Close FX Chain Config is there as a way of getting the window to re-open as you step backwards, since I presume same changes that were before that point require the window to be open.
That makes perfect sense to me. And by itself it's useful.

The problem with this however is that once a window is open, it might close again if you choose to view a previous or subsequent undo history state. If it closes, you lose history - a new state immediately gets entered, and whenever a new state is created it's going to erase all entries above it. I lost hours of work once because of this... and it's kind of frustrating to try to explain. I'm still not sure there's anyone here who realizes exactly what I'm trying to point out - that this problem has a certain level of danger to it..

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So the ideal thing would be an option to skip that point I presume?
Well, I don't know if it's the ideal solution to the problem, but I do think it would remedy the problems I'm experiencing.

What I'm really after is a safer undo history that simply won't whittle itself away just from viewing a bunch of different states, without making any changes. Maybe there's another way of doing this that doesn't mess with the "Close FX Chain Config" at all, but to me (definitely NOT a programmer!) what seems to be the simplest way to accomplish this is to just eliminate the state, or at least have the option to.

So, yes having an option to do this would definitely solve the problem for me, but maybe there is in fact a better way to safeguard the undo history from these types of incidents.

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As for solo, mute, volume changes and "Adjust Track Volume (via Surface)" - I'd love to see all of those having seperate checkbox options to store or ignore those changes in the history - ie not include them at all.
I'm in total agreement!
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Old 08-03-2007, 01:12 PM   #14
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ya i really think it should be like on my fantom.

dont store me adjusting the level of a track on the mixer as an undo event because i can just adjust it back. but i wanna be able to undo notes that i have deleted, midi blocks that are gone, recordings that have overwrote other recordings, etc...
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:00 PM   #15
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Resurrecting an old thread....

I think it's silly to have closing windows or soloing tracks be a state in the undo history. No one hits "undo" when they mistakenly solo a track, they just hit the solo button again. Same goes with closing an effect window. I can't see a reason for it to be there.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:01 PM   #16
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Agreed.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
wouldn't it be cool if undo was categorized as trees for edits - ctrl+z a branch for parameter tweaks - ctrl+shift+z one for midi edits - ctrl+alt+z and another for mixer - ctrl+alt+shift+z?

then we could step back as we wanted... undo fader movements after tweaking FX. Then undo edits and leave the FX and fader schtuff in tact...

imagine the possibilities!
Yes, non-linear undo/redo is the way to go as well as being able to completely exclude things such as any type of parameter tweaks(FX, volume, pan, envelopes, etc.) When doing hundreds or thousands of paramater tweaks REAPER's undo history tends to take up way too much memory.

I as well think that opening/closing of any windows should not be included in the undo/redo. If you need to see what you're undoing then either leave the window open or reopen it before undoing. It is completely frustrating when FX windows pop open when undoing.., I hate it!

The undo/redo system really does need an overhaul. There are so many bugs, I can't tell you how many times I've yelled at my monitor because I clicked undo and it undid way more then it was susposed to and then the history is wiped out so there is no way of redoing.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I totally agree that the "close window" stage should be optional and there are other cases.
I agree - this has always seemed strange to me.

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I have this same question about Solo/Mute being stored... I change an effect parameter, solo the track to hear it better, decide I don't like it and undo unsolo's the track as the first step. Just seems wrong to me.

But the king of wrongness(!) in the undo chain is "Adjust Track Volume (via Surface)". I move my mixing desk faders around all the time to check how things I'm tweaking are sounding and when I undo I find myself going back through a series of fader movements. I'd love to be able to exclude the mixer altogether.
At first sight I disagreed with these strongly but I see the logic. In late-stage mixing, I tend to want to solo, mute, and louden parts temporarily but I also want volume changes to be exactly undoable so I don't go around in circles by accidentally messing with something that was perfect. How do you deal with this, Drew? Do you have another method for undoing the results of playing around, or are you happy to manually reset things by ear afterwards?
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:04 PM   #19
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For volume changes I can see undo being important - except with a control surface where really feels wrong to me as it's likely you would tweak the track volume faders more often and then you have to step back through.

As for mute & solo, while I wouldn't want to deny anyone functionality they find useful, I'm really surprised that after hitting mute or solo and wanting to revert it's considered easier to key Ctrl-Z than to just press the same button you were already hovering over. Simply put, I never thought solo or mute as undoable actions were helping... but clearly some like it that way! With solo especially I always fall into the loop of 'make a change, solo to hear it, don't like it so undo.. er.. then have to undo again'
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:46 AM   #20
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Agreed on mute and solo (at least for people with a control surface or who aren't moving the mouse too much between clicking mute/solo buttons).

It sounds to me like there's more than one valid workflow here and there should be separate undo-disabling options for volume/pan and mute/solo.
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