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Old 06-26-2013, 02:06 PM   #1
Lucian
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Default Does anybody mixdown to tape anymore?

Just curious as I recently picked up a Tascam 32 (not the best but all I can afford) and I am thinking of experimenting with sending drums or bass to Quantegy 406 (+3) tape and back into Reaper. And then Mixing the whole process down to Quantegy 456 (+6 tape). I have lots of free time and do not mind wasting it
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:05 AM   #2
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Not quite the same, but I was speaking with producer Bob Ezrin a while back and he's doing all his mixing to 1" 2-track tape.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
Just curious as I recently picked up a Tascam 32 (not the best but all I can afford) and I am thinking of experimenting with sending drums or bass to Quantegy 406 (+3) tape and back into Reaper. And then Mixing the whole process down to Quantegy 456 (+6 tape). I have lots of free time and do not mind wasting it
Y'know what? It's your time, and if it sounds good it isn't wasted, now is it?

The only thing I'll toss in is that if you're going to actually use a tape deck, pay to have it professionally maintained unless you have the tools and test tapes to do it yourself and know what you're doing. Otherwise stick to tape sim plugins. Badly-maintained machines suck.

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Old 06-28-2013, 11:54 AM   #4
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Yes, I found the original East Coast Tascam Repair dept that is now privately owned with all the original old timers. They will setup/restore the deck as it will be local for me over the July 4th holiday.

njfactoryservice.com/home.html

Of course there is a fairly big Reel to Reel prescence on the web but I was curious how many reaperites consider using or use tape in some form.

On other forums I ran into people who track to tape with a Tascam 38-8 and mix digitally which I thought was pretty cool.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:18 PM   #5
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In the early days of digital when we only had 16 bit, nearly everyone mixed to analog tape. (16 bit did well for the raw multitracks but couldn't capture a full mix.) Now that we have 24 bit 96k digital, not so much.

If you invest in good digital converters to get your audio into the digital world, I think you'd really have to be doing something pretty special with $$$$$$$$$ worth of analog gear to match what you can do with 24/96 digital.

As for delivering analog vs. digital to the consumer. Lots of people with nice converters listening to high res media these days. Not so many with $5000+ turntable setups that are even able to listen to an analog master.

If you find that 24/96 digital > analog tape > back to 24/96 digital sounds better, I'm going to suggest that it's the distortion and compression you got from the tape that's appealing to your ear. You actually technically lost fidelity. Then I'm going to suggest that I bet you find a way to achieve the same effect digitally.


My point is unless you're really shooting for the moon with analog gear, I think you can do it better and more economically digitally.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #6
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Yes, most likely I imagine you are right. Todays digital resolution makes arguing about odd and even harmonics and mojo rather moot. So, yes, I imagine it is a quest in futility but I have kind of forgotton what real tape compression sounds like (and yes, that is kind of what I am interested in and going for) so atleast this will give me a basis to judge VSTs against. Regardless if this works this could be an interesting hobby for when I suffer writers block. Perhaps in the end I will have the same disdain for analog, but it certainly seemed like a golden age and had a nice run. Perhaps due to the fact it was rather expensive.

Anyway, my deck is getting setup next Monday.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:21 AM   #7
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I do. Sometimes. You don't use tape for quality but for compression and distortion. Try and judge it yourself. There are some tracks that benefit from that considerably. Sometimes even good 3-head cassette deck will do the job (with good, fresh tape). Don't be afraid to push it to +10 ... +20 dB and listen to what happens.

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Old 07-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #8
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Wow, heh heh, I could never go back to tape. I understand where you're going with all this but..

Like Scott said, if the machine isn't maintained up to specs, both electronically and physically (head height, azimuth, guides, reel tension, etc.) it's going to leave question marks.

I suppose 1" and 2" tape can still be purchased but it must be really expensive isn't it? I used to be set up as a dealer for Ampex so I got all my tape direct from them in the old days for dealer prices but now days I wouldn't even know where to look.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:40 PM   #9
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2-3 years ago I had to mix a hip hop album.
The drums and main samples were fine but the vocals were recorded so crappy.
Decided to print our mixes on a tape deck.
Yes a consumer 90s Technics tape deck we got off ebay for 20 bucks (brand new condition) and used metal position tape.
The drums were in the red and even that cheap tape system got to even out the frequency differences between the crappy vocals and the full rage frequency of the rest of the mix.

I wasnt using Reaper back then.

Now if i choose to use that cassette deck again, i might patch it so my mix goes into the deck, gets recorded and leaves the monitor out and gets back to my DAW and I can render 1x on line and have a wav file with cassette saturation.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
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In the early days of digital when we only had 16 bit, nearly everyone mixed to analog tape. (16 bit did well for the raw multitracks but couldn't capture a full mix.) Now that we have 24 bit 96k digital, not so much.

If you invest in good digital converters to get your audio into the digital world, I think you'd really have to be doing something pretty special with $$$$$$$$$ worth of analog gear to match what you can do with 24/96 digital.

As for delivering analog vs. digital to the consumer. Lots of people with nice converters listening to high res media these days. Not so many with $5000+ turntable setups that are even able to listen to an analog master.

If you find that 24/96 digital > analog tape > back to 24/96 digital sounds better, I'm going to suggest that it's the distortion and compression you got from the tape that's appealing to your ear. You actually technically lost fidelity. Then I'm going to suggest that I bet you find a way to achieve the same effect digitally.


My point is unless you're really shooting for the moon with analog gear, I think you can do it better and more economically digitally.
You took the words right out of my mouth... and NO..it wasn't while you were kissing me )

I was raised on Analog and i keep going back for nostalgia trips, but... i think it was more a "knobs and Hardware" thing i missed... Digital is best nowadays... but then...hmmm.. analog has that lovely warm, compressed, distorted.... AAARGGH!.. Digilogue! its the way forward!and FRESH!!! )
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:39 PM   #11
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So the deck has been fully restored, calibrated, etc and I have been using it for the past month as I wanted to wait to get passed the honeymoon phase. I am using just a full mix of one song on 456 (haven't used 406 or xfered single instruments yet but I have no deadline so this is all just experimental fun). The tech told me the heads are good and the response is flat up to 18k. Anyway, Yes I notice some high end loss but wow, the saturation is just well, wow. I have heard nothing that comes close. Yes, I think an expert with tape plugins who know what all the controls do might put up a valid counter point I have heard no presets that sound like this.
I have been experimenting with blending both the tape and digital versions together to recover hi end and realized since they don't line up continuously perfect, I get this neat, subtle comb effect on the high end of things, mostly noticeable on the snare. Initially I was thinking this would work sort of like parallel compression but the comb filtering is a nice bonus. I pull the tape version down so the effect is subtle but there.
This experience now makes me wish I had a higher quality deck with better high end. Regardless, as an effect this is really cool.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ ALX View Post
2-3 years ago I had to mix a hip hop album.
The drums and main samples were fine but the vocals were recorded so crappy.
Decided to print our mixes on a tape deck.
Yes a consumer 90s Technics tape deck we got off ebay for 20 bucks (brand new condition) and used metal position tape.
The drums were in the red and even that cheap tape system got to even out the frequency differences between the crappy vocals and the full rage frequency of the rest of the mix.

I wasnt using Reaper back then.

Now if i choose to use that cassette deck again, i might patch it so my mix goes into the deck, gets recorded and leaves the monitor out and gets back to my DAW and I can render 1x on line and have a wav file with cassette saturation.
Hi,

I am using a pioneer tape deck from the 90s for the same reason sometimes. It is a three head System so I rerecord the Monitor out directly back to reaper.
For me it sounds definitly better than a tape simulation.
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:17 AM   #13
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Well, having played with 456 tape all for over a month and then looking at tape sims, the one that is easiest and sounds best for the saturation sound I want is Bootsy's Tesla vst. He has others that do more and are more complicated but so far, I like Tesla for its ease of use, just click the +3 tape button and turn saturation to 3 o'clock and you will have no trouble hearing what it does. It does not seem to loose the top end either which, although not accurate vs tape, is a win.
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:22 PM   #14
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Default tascam 424

I still like to record a lot of things to my tascam 424 or 488 and then dump them into my daw so I can have some tasty super lo-fi-ness. I really enjoy how crappy my 488 sounds with its 8 tracks on a standard cassette tape. I also love wow and flutter.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:48 PM   #15
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I still like to record a lot of things to my tascam 424 or 488 and then dump them into my daw so I can have some tasty super lo-fi-ness. I really enjoy how crappy my 488 sounds with its 8 tracks on a standard cassette tape. I also love wow and flutter.
Heh heh, that's pretty rad_get.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:13 PM   #16
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I still like to record a lot of things to my tascam 424 or 488 and then dump them into my daw so I can have some tasty super lo-fi-ness. I really enjoy how crappy my 488 sounds with its 8 tracks on a standard cassette tape. I also love wow and flutter.
Lo-fi rules
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:15 PM   #17
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Well, having played with 456 tape all for over a month and then looking at tape sims, the one that is easiest and sounds best for the saturation sound I want is Bootsy's Tesla vst. He has others that do more and are more complicated but so far, I like Tesla for its ease of use, just click the +3 tape button and turn saturation to 3 o'clock and you will have no trouble hearing what it does. It does not seem to loose the top end either which, although not accurate vs tape, is a win.
So at the end of the day, are you recommending Tesla over tape?
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:10 PM   #18
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I never used a tape machine. they cost way too much and you have to maintain them properly.

Check out the demo for Satin.
http://www.u-he.com/cms/satin

It sounds really nice! I haven't used any U-He products before this. You can get some great tape crunch, vibe, etc.
No dongle required. Just a serial to register.

Note: They're updating it to allow for completely bypassing the tape hiss sound.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:25 PM   #19
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So at the end of the day, are you recommending Tesla over tape?
Not sure, Quest. A part of me does not want to as these decks are cool but right now I am mostly using it as art while I explore vst sims. You can definitely do things with sims via the controls (like exagerate, adjust freqs saturated, compression character, etc) that I am guessing are impossible with just my one deck. The new Klanghelm vst is a good example. However, in terms of controls, tape is easier, it only has one preset and an input knob and I know this particular sound now (456 on a tascam32) which makes wonder why nobody has made a sim with presets based on different tapes and decks.

On paper I can still see compelling arguments on why analog should be better, namely a contiguous signal using real numbers as opposed to discrete collections using integers. However, in the real world I cannot readily perceive a difference.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:14 AM   #20
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In the early days of digital when we only had 16 bit, nearly everyone mixed to analog tape. (16 bit did well for the raw multitracks but couldn't capture a full mix.) Now that we have 24 bit 96k digital, not so much.

If you invest in good digital converters to get your audio into the digital world, I think you'd really have to be doing something pretty special with $$$$$$$$$ worth of analog gear to match what you can do with 24/96 digital.

As for delivering analog vs. digital to the consumer. Lots of people with nice converters listening to high res media these days. Not so many with $5000+ turntable setups that are even able to listen to an analog master.

If you find that 24/96 digital > analog tape > back to 24/96 digital sounds better, I'm going to suggest that it's the distortion and compression you got from the tape that's appealing to your ear. You actually technically lost fidelity. Then I'm going to suggest that I bet you find a way to achieve the same effect digitally.


My point is unless you're really shooting for the moon with analog gear, I think you can do it better and more economically digitally.
I completely agree.
I recently had a Tascam 388 (7" reel 1/4" tape) given to me for use. I had the idea of pumping drums through it too. But in the end it's 1/4" tape and there's just not close to the same headroom and flexibility with tape as with my digital setup. And that's not even considering the cost of time and tape.

I find it so interesting (and exciting) that we've progressed so quickly with technology. I can't imagine what we'll have in about 25 years.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #21
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Toneboosters Reelbus!

Try "GlueII" on drums, lovely..!


>
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:49 PM   #22
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I am thinking of doing this very thing with an old Sony deck. However, my question is what did you use to get the signal to Reaper? I am using a Sony tc336 and a Tascam 1800. Any info would be very much appreciated!
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:50 AM   #23
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Ahhh.. Ampex 456 (see my avatar). I have boxes of that in storage, most of it probably needs to be baked now to be playable again though (Google baking Ampex tape for an interesting read).

I'm actually working on a 'new' song right now that I recorded in the mid 90's and never released. It was tracked on 16 track Ampex 456 and later transferred to my Mac G4 ProTools rig for mixing and editing. The PT session was in SD2 format so I had to fire up the Mac last week (a whopping 400MHz single CPU model) which has the ProTools files on it and open the PT session so I could export all the files as WAV to import into REAPER. Well, after 14 years, the hard drive still fired up, the files were all good and the rig actually ran without a hiccup. But man is it SLOOOOOW. It took 15 minutes to transfer the audio from the Mac to my external drive but only 30 seconds to transfer from the external drive to my REAPER rig with USB3!
Once I got those files loaded up and started mixing in REAPER, all the character and warmth of 456 harmonic distortion on the drums and bass (push those meters!!) put a big smile on my face.

Having said that though, I agree with the sentiments of others here. It is pretty easy to get that saturation using plugins these days. I have Ozone 5 Advanced which has some nice tape and tube saturation presets that do a convincing job without all the hassle of maintenance, alignment and tape deterioration of physical hardware.

Still, there's something pleasing about the aesthetics of an analog tape machine running at 15ips. Perhaps it is just nostalgia!!
Speaking of which, my first job was at AM radio station 3GL as it was then known which has since become K-Rock FM. Part of my job there included maintaining the Ampex logging and newsroom decks (all vacuum tube decks), the recording decks in the studios and the cart machines they used for commercials.
They had a huge sound FX library in the main production studio too which I transferred to TDK SA-X90 cassettes (which I still have). I thought those cassettes were the best thing since sliced bread at the time until I discovered Denon HD8 cassettes.
Does anyone remember this TDK commercial?


I tried to find some photo's from the 3GL studios but couldn't find a single one which is pretty odd considering 3GL's heritage.
I did find this photo of the STC transmitter that was in use when I was working there though...



Quote:
Originally Posted by pitol678 View Post
I am thinking of doing this very thing with an old Sony deck. However, my question is what did you use to get the signal to Reaper? I am using a Sony tc336 and a Tascam 1800. Any info would be very much appreciated!
I still have my Sony TC352D. Back in the day when I recorded my first CD, I used it to track guitar parts for a couple of songs. That was way before I had any form of DAW and I used the Sony to get some 'warmth' on those guitar parts.
I used it with a DBX 154 noise reduction unit which I also still own.
Your Tascam 1800 should be more than adequate to get the signal in and out of your deck. Just use the line level i/o.

My Sony...


and a pic of a DBX 154...
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:25 AM   #24
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Thanks for the reply ReDave! Much appreciated, I'll give it a shot
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:36 AM   #25
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Now I've got that damn song in my head..."TDK does amazing things to my system".
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:38 PM   #26
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Does anyone remember this TDK commercial?
Yep! Also remember 3GL. Still tune to K-Rock via the internet when Geelong's playing.


In case anyone's noticed that I'm located in the Blue Mountains, for the next few days at least we are elsewhere having grabbed few precious possessions & are hoping for the (unlikely) best.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:48 PM   #27
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Yep! Also remember 3GL. Still tune to K-Rock via the internet when Geelong's playing.
Dad had an old Radiola valve radio which was in the back shed and tuned to 3GL to listen to the footy when the Cats were playing. I think he still has that radio. I might ask him if I can do a restoration on it. The cabinet is in really good condition.
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In case anyone's noticed that I'm located in the Blue Mountains, for the next few days at least we are elsewhere having grabbed few precious possessions & are hoping for the (unlikely) best.
My thoughts and prayers are with you. The fires are pretty full on from what I've heard on the news.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:15 AM   #28
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Thanks Dave,

The firefighters, mostly volunteers, did a fantastic job today in incredibly difficult weather conditions & we're past the worst. It'll take weeks to finish the job, but the hard work & a change wind direction & temperature means we are safe for now.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:11 AM   #29
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Thanks Dave,

The firefighters, mostly volunteers, did a fantastic job today in incredibly difficult weather conditions & we're past the worst. It'll take weeks to finish the job, but the hard work & a change wind direction & temperature means we are safe for now.
Good to hear that.
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Old 10-23-2013, 12:40 PM   #30
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Thanks Dave,

The firefighters, mostly volunteers, did a fantastic job today in incredibly difficult weather conditions & we're past the worst. It'll take weeks to finish the job, but the hard work & a change wind direction & temperature means we are safe for now.
That's great news Alan.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #31
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Sorry, I appear to have hijacked this thread, but thanks for the well-wishing techno & Dave.

There are always little side lights in a situation like this & here's one we love

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-2...ricket/5041596

It has everything - milk crates for stumps, fire truck in the background through the smoke, what looks like a well executed leg glance & I know exactly where the ground is. The only thing missing is the ball - presumably on its way to the boundary.


Back on topic anyone?
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:55 PM   #32
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Playing cricket on their break? Doesn't a cricket game last like two days? I hope things turn out ok for you Alan.

Back on topic: would someone get similar benefits or results by mixing in the digital world and mastering to tape (and back into the DAW)?
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:59 AM   #33
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Sorry, I appear to have hijacked this thread, but thanks for the well-wishing techno & Dave.

There are always little side lights in a situation like this & here's one we love

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-2...ricket/5041596

It has everything - milk crates for stumps, fire truck in the background through the smoke, what looks like a well executed leg glance & I know exactly where the ground is. The only thing missing is the ball - presumably on its way to the boundary.


Back on topic anyone?
lol
Our Aussie volunteer firefighters are an awesome bunch. Respect for these guys.
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Playing cricket on their break? Doesn't a cricket game last like two days? I hope things turn out ok for you Alan.

Back on topic: would someone get similar benefits or results by mixing in the digital world and mastering to tape (and back into the DAW)?
Yeah. I've known several mastering engineers who actually offer that as part of their professional service. It is usually done at either 15 or 30ips and on at least 1/2 inch two track. But I don't see why those of us without the budget for such decks can't experiment with lesser gear. If it sounds good, use it!

I just found another pic of my Sony TC352D and some of the vintage DBX gear I've collected over the years. I still own this stuff...

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Old 10-24-2013, 12:48 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
I just found another pic of my Sony TC352D and some of the vintage DBX gear I've collected over the years. I still own this stuff...
Heh heh, yeah ReaDave, I've still got a couple of my old dbx boxes around.

I think I've got the 154 like in your picture and a 157. If I remember correctly the 157 was either Play or Record, you couldn't have both at the same time.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:14 PM   #35
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Heh heh, yeah ReaDave, I've still got a couple of my old dbx boxes around.

I think I've got the 154 like in your picture and a 157. If I remember correctly the 157 was either Play or Record, you couldn't have both at the same time.
The 154 is the same but it is four channel. When using it with a two channel deck, you can use two for encoding and two for decoding for real-time monitoring off tape through the NR.
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:33 PM   #36
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I recently found a few old video tapes from recording sessions for one of my albums from the mid 90's and grabbed some still images from them.

Me at the console. You can see the Tascam 16 track in the background...


In the middle of this shot is the two track deck we used for mixdowns prior to getting the Tascam DA30 DAT deck also visible in this shot (middle, left)...
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:32 PM   #37
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Here's a better photo showing the 16 track more clearly. Also in this pic is the Apple Mac G3 I had sync'd via SMPTE timecode (recorded on track 16) to lock my keyboard rig to the tape using SMPTE to MIDI conversion...

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Also in this pic is the Apple Mac G3 I had sync'd via SMPTE timecode (recorded on track 16) to lock my keyboard rig to the tape using SMPTE to MIDI conversion...
Aah SMPTE-sync... I used a Tascam 488 with one track SMPTE-stripped to my Atari (through a Steinberg Midex)... mixdown to a Sony ProDAT recorder. Those where the days
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:53 AM   #39
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Back on topic: would someone get similar benefits or results by mixing in the digital world and mastering to tape (and back into the DAW)?
Hi!

Either to tape or a nice bit of valve compression. Both processes reduce the detail in the mix slightly but make for a listening experience where the ear is less drawn to fiddly details and the music comes across more emotionally hopefully. Bouncing to tape you have less option for fine control than valve compression and there's liable to be more change in the nature of the top end which may or may not be desirable.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:52 PM   #40
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Aah SMPTE-sync... I used a Tascam 488 with one track SMPTE-stripped to my Atari (through a Steinberg Midex)... mixdown to a Sony ProDAT recorder. Those where the days
Those 488's were cool decks. Tascam must've made a mint on their Portastudio range. The rack mount 238 was another cool design too.

A friend of mine had a Tascam 133 at one stage. That was a somewhat odd format though with THREE channels on casssette and was designed for one of the tracks to be for SMPTE sync.

Tascam 133
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