Old 02-13-2017, 01:49 PM   #1
Woods1
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Default Our first Reaper song.

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1

This was a Ac Gut via Fishman pickup into interface ch 1
Vox through Sm57 into interface ch 2.

Please feel free to critique we welcome and need it.

This is our thread on "Newbie Land" forum.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=187678

Ciao,
Woods
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:29 AM   #2
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Nice song - shades of Knopfler in the vocals, which sound really good - clear and present, eq sounds good, not harsh or too wet - for a first effort with a 57 you should be well pleased with that.
The acoustic is a notoriously difficult instrument to record - every guitar sounds different and techniques that work with one won't work with another, but there are a few basic principles you could try.
Yours sounds a bit distant and fragile, missing some of the body and warmth that are the essence of an acoustic. Reverb is a great creative tool and makes some things sound great, but you have to have a good basic sound to begin with - it shouldn't be used to 'fix' things.
Some pros would cringe at the idea of using a pickup to record an acoustic, but the Fishman is good quality. I have no idea what equipment you have (like, do you have a condenser mic or a good recording environment?) but you could try this:
Use the Fishman into one channel - record it flat with no eq, that can be tweaked later. Plug the 57 into a second channel and aim it at the point where the neck ends (depending on the guitar, the 20/22 fret?) at a distance of about a foot to 18 inches. Don't point it directly at the sound hole - that could be a bit boomy. Record both channels together, then blend them in the mix. No hard and fast rules here, experiment with the mic placement, blending, and post-recording eq til you get a sound you like. Look for any phase issues between the pickup and the mic. There's a ton of stuff on YouTube about that and acoustic recording in general.
Hope that helps a bit?
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Old 02-14-2017, 06:25 AM   #3
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Congrats. We knew you could do it! I'll let others give any critique/suggestions, I just wanted to pop in and congratulate you.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:25 AM   #4
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Default I have a good feeling for the moment. Like being with a community of friends.

There is no one around these parts that I can do this with or who even knows or cares about recording music with the passion that I have. I want to make good recordings.

I consider this a rough rough demo of scratch tracks. It was 4 in the morning and I almost said forget it. But I had promised myself and you that I was going to "just get it done."

I wanted to have two discreet tracks for Vox and Gut so that is why I ran thought the fishman. And shoved the sm57 against my face. Trying to reduce bleed of the Gut into the vox.

I recorded two takes straight through.

I tried to ad verb and delay to both for monitoring ambience. I am not happy with the reverb at all. It is a 3rd party free. It ain't no PCM 70. It was on an aux send - but I don't know what I did or if it was even set up correctly. ??


I used Reaper EQ and then just presets of close mic Acoustic and Male Vocals.
Also I had the optron LA3 on vox and gut. Can you hear it? I wasn't sure what order to put it - behind or ahead of the eq? Does it matter?

The delay was on an aux send. And I sent the vox and gut to it. Then to adjust to try to get what I was thinking - The delay setting was about 100 ms. And then I panned it opposite of how gut and vox were panned. But I don't know how to do this. When you click on the "routing" button of either the vox or gut channel that opens up the dialoge box with a couple of faders. So I played with those until I got something. But I don't understand what I did. Then I clicked on the "routing" button of the delay channel and played with those faders. But again I was a blindman in the dark. I need to better understand these tasks/elements ??? I used the Reaper Delay.

So I was disappointed by the guitar sound. But again I really wasn't trying for a good sound. I intend to overdub both the gut and vox again - using these initial scratch tracks as the guide. Although I have no idea what the tempo currently. My project was left on default 120 bpm. So if I want to ad snare brush loops or whatever - the bpm "I suspect will be a big problem" when trying to get the loop to marry to the tempo ?? (Becasue I forgot to figure out my tempo and change the project tempo to that).

I have been unimpressed with much modern digital acoustic guitar that I hear in recordings these days. My palette craves the old vinyl and tape sounds of the good old days. I will be always mindful of that element when going forward with any recording that I do that includes Ac Gut. I will be experimenting. I don't think that tape emulation or vintage warmers or any of those kinds of plugins are the answer. Modern Ac Gut sounds may be here for good. They are too glassy, too digitally present sounding to be pleasing to my ear at least. ind you that has nothing to do with the sound of Ac Gut in this recording.

Also, I don't know if I am going to be able to overdub good gut and vox (while listening to the existing scratch tracks? I would like the new VOx and Gut to be such that I can begin to practice editing. I want to cut it up into items of intro, verse, chorus, bridge, etc. Name them and then perhaps ad extra intro section and a solo section etc. etc.

I have an old Shure sm82 that someone found in an old train station. And I have an old beat up AT4050. So I can do stereo gut and condenser on vox.

Does any of what I mumbled my way through above sound like plausible work flow that you would pursue.

Help wanted?

Ciao,
Woods


PS. Sorry - the Delay to pan the vox and gut wide with delay on them - I made a send of the gut track or dulpicate it so I had two gut tracks side by side and one of them I put delay on - then I panned left and right. same thing with the vox. So I had 6 tracks in all. The original Gut and Vox. Then Aux sends for the verb and the delay. Then the two duplicates of the Gut and Vox for adding delay and wide panning. Does this make sense? Again I was just pushing faders blindly.

Last edited by Woods1; 02-14-2017 at 09:58 AM. Reason: After Thought
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:28 PM   #5
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Well that was great! Great vocals both musically and emotionally.
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:32 AM   #6
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I like the song - has potential. A few comments:

- The beginning of the verse is to me too mono-tone. You could add some tonal changes. After say 0:26 it gets better - more melody. Not too much - it has a mono-tone feel that fits well.
- I would also work on some the text and maybe shortening. Like "that no home can ever seem like home". Too wordy in my opinion. You could shorten for example "no home ever seems like home" - subtle, but less words make them easier understood.
- Like your singing voice - fits well. Your voice on the recording probably does not do it justice. As said, it sounds a bit distant and fragile, but if you record it without playing guitar, you could focus on the singing and make it more powerful. Would love to hear a multitrack recorded version mixed well.
- I agree that not alot of reverb is needed for this song.

Keep it up!
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:42 PM   #7
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Please, add some info about your setup when requesting technical help outside of REAPER.
OS: Windows? Version? 32 or 64 bit
Interface: Model
Available mics, etc. (I saw you listed a couple.)

You can add this info to your signature if you think you'll be asking a lot of questions for a while.

Anyway, great song & kudos for taking a stab at recording.

Critiques: People new to recording always tend to get too heavy-handed with reverb & delay. Definitely, I did and sometimes still do.

Rarely will you need to use these as Insert FX (directly on the channel) and most often these are used as Send FX. Have it on thick while you play with the timing/decay settings, etc. Then turn the send all the way down and slowly bring it back up until you like it. Just remember, it needs to support the performance, not be distracting from it.

Please, download the http://www.reaper.fm/guides/ReaEffectsGuide.pdf

ReaVerbate just sucks, IMO. In fact, most free reverbs are not awesome. Eventually, you'll probably end up buying one (like Vallhalla Vintage Verb, love it). Until then... You can use ReaVerb with an Impulse file. Although, I admit, ReaVerb is quite daunting to the beginner.

Try this one: http://www.kvraudio.com/product/oril...-denis-tihanov

ReaDelay generally does everything I need a delay to do for me. It does have a lot of options that require some learning. There are some great free delay VSTs out there.

If you like Optron 3A then you may want to check out some more modern and supported free compressor plugins (that one appears to be abandoned not sure where you even downloaded it from). Klanghelm DC1A & MJUC Jr immediately come to mind for simple IN/OUT operation.
http://klanghelm.com/contents/products/DC1A/DC1A.php
http://klanghelm.com/contents/produc...Cjr/MJUCjr.php

Eventually, you'll learn that ReaComp is a powerhouse.

As far as tempo stuff... If you're not practiced at playing to click/metronome then just put in a loop or drum VST and record over that. You can tap the tempo in by clicking the mouse on the beats in the tempo button. Later you'll need to investigate tempo mapping if you want loops to follow the loose timing of a non-click/metronome, freestyle recording.

One step at a time brother.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:40 AM   #8
Woods1
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Default Is this the best forum to continue to get help building my song?

Is this the best forum to be in? As I have a post over in Newbieland as well.

I want to continue to get help from you (anybody & everybody) in building this song. But I probably should keep all the communication with you about it in one forum. (Isn't that a good idea?)

I am asking this in the other forums that I have posted in and will be getting a consensus so I can decide where to consolidate my posting.

Ciao,
Woods

If so -- where would you begin? I want to redo the guitar and vocals again. But I don't know how to do it because I don't know the tempo and how much intro time to leave at the beginning and things like that. The scratch tracks that I showed you are not good enough as a guide becasue the tempo is off so I can't really listen to that while laying down the new (keeper guitar or vocal). So how do begin again the right way to build this scratch track song idea?
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:41 PM   #9
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I think you received really good solid advice from Bass6 and Insub, a lot to explore and benefit from in their posts

I am far from an expert in this but finding the tempo of your scratch track shouldn't be too tough. Many ways to go about it, a few easy ways to try

play back 15sec of the track while counting, clapping etc. the beat then multiply that number by 4 to get BPM

I have a free app on my phone called BPM Counter, works the same as above basically but it does the math for you. You just tap the circle to the beat and it calculates BPM

AS Insub mentioned, Tempo Mapping in Reaper is great but a little involved for what your needing.

Your pretty close to 4/4 120 BPM as it is
(depending on what notes you count ie. 1/8, 1/4 etc.)
I think ????????????
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:35 PM   #10
Woods1
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Default So ... Does this make sense ?

Hey BCF1,

I learned something from you. I never knew that you multiply by 4 to get the bpm ... shows my naivete about alot of this. I am intuitive and musical -those are my strengths I think. But many things that you would thin I should know about ths whole process - I do not. So please bare with me.

So ... correct me if I'm wrong ...

But isn't setting the tempo very early in the process a must for the following reason? If I want to add a drum loop that was recorded at (say for example) 90 bpm == And my song is 120 bpm -- then when we try to marry the 90 bpm loop to the 120 bpm track - in order for the loop to re-time to the 120 bpm it has to know what the track is set to???

Does this make sense?

Ciao,

Woods
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:07 PM   #11
Woods1
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Default This Kenny tut helped me see a little more clearly.

http://www.kennymania.com/track-timebase-tempo/


I have found a kick and brushes loop thatI want to use as my click track but the tempo is allot different from my scratch track.

How did you deal with this problem?

Ciao,
Woods

PS: To Insub -- I have downloaded the Reaper Effects Guide and put o my tablet for reading. Thanks to yu and Bass 6, Karbo, Jon Linton, msundh, and BCF1 and all the rest for the kind remarks about the potential.

Last edited by Woods1; 02-20-2017 at 02:07 PM. Reason: After Thought
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods1 View Post
Hey BCF1,

I learned something from you. I never knew that you multiply by 4 to get the bpm ... shows my naivete about alot of this. I am intuitive and musical -those are my strengths I think. But many things that you would thin I should know about ths whole process - I do not. So please bare with me.

So ... correct me if I'm wrong ...

But isn't setting the tempo very early in the process a must for the following reason? If I want to add a drum loop that was recorded at (say for example) 90 bpm == And my song is 120 bpm -- then when we try to marry the 90 bpm loop to the 120 bpm track - in order for the loop to re-time to the 120 bpm it has to know what the track is set to???

Does this make sense?

Ciao,

Woods
Hey Woods glad I could offer you up something that you find useful. Lord knows many of the fine folks here on the Reaper forum have been kind enough to offer me advice, share their experience and expertise as well as their music.

Now, with butt kissing out of the way..........................

I have never used or even played around with a drum loop, but I have previously viewed and just watched again the video from the link you posted up. Almost everything your concerned about, potentially dealing with and unsure of is covered in that video. It's pretty straight forward and clearly explained by the creator, Kenny.(I'm not associated with the guy or trying to push his product in any way)** That being said I think he did a great job in the video, it's all there.

I use the EzDrummer2 software** mostly for my drums and yes setting BPM is of course important but as you know sometimes you want to change things. Be it midi or a loop I believe the ideas covered in that video will work to get and keep your tracks and BPM issues ironed out.

Sorry for such a wordy blurb, good or bad that's my way. Drives me nuts


Just making sure there's no confusion on what I said previously about finding BPM = Beats Per Minute
if I tried to count claps or whatever for an entire minute it could potentially be a whole lot of claps. I would become board, distracted and lose count pretty quick. I can usually keep my focus for 15 seconds and also remember how many claps I counted in that amount of time, as long as bpm isn't to high.
So keeping the example simple enough for me to follow - 30 claps in 15 seconds = 30 x 4 = 120 Beats per minute

I'm sure that was unnecessary but I mention wordy right ?

Last edited by BCF1; 02-21-2017 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:15 AM   #13
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Vocal work is outstanding. Song writing is outstanding. I'd agree with the "Knopfleresque" comment above.

Guitar track could use a bit of reinforcement, but other than that, a damn nice start.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:34 AM   #14
Woods1
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Default Getting ready to "Re-Do" the Gut/Vox Scratch w/a brush click

Thanks Jerome Oneil,

I have immersed myself in a couple of Kenny's tuts that are in his "Editing" "Setting Up Shop" and "Recording" Categories at Reaper Mania.They are helping me get a small understanding of this phase. I am so OCD I have to see things from the inside out before I can do anything - one of my weaknesses.

Anyways - Tempo Mapping in Reaper is good - so are Area Selection Editing, Metronome, Copy Loop of Selected Area, Time Signature Changes in Reaper, Track Time Base, etc. Put them on my smart phone and listen to them on the clam flats while digging clams.

Also scouring Google for Click, Tempo, and related issues. Found some good articles on songwriting and Ac Gut Type websites.

and have been sketching on paper a better plan of bars, measures, intor space, and leaving space for a solo or interlude break. Although I would like to be able to do that later in the cut and paste editing as an excercise.

So hope to get new scratch tracks up to my Soundclip place for yall to hear if you want. I hope you do I need the feedback.

Cio,

Woods
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:55 AM   #15
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I saved myself hours and hours of tempo mapping by sucking it up and learning to play with a click track.
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Old 02-21-2017, 11:06 AM   #16
Woods1
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Default Song Scratch (Re-Do)

The Answer (Scratch Re-Do)

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1


This is a quick and very dirty I am leaving for the clam flats

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1

But I would like some feedback for this evening when I work on the Keeper Scratch with lyrics and chords on the chart and more arranging etc.

Cioa,

Woods
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:44 PM   #17
Woods1
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Default I may have found an answer in this Kenny Tut ...

In this tut Kenny finds out how to determine the tempo of a performance thaat was not recorded to a click in Reaper.

http://www.kennymania.com/videos/rea...ce-to-a-click/
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Old 02-22-2017, 04:48 AM   #18
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Song is nice,singing nice, guitar a little plastic sounding. Also you could have easily got rid of hiss and sound more polished.
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Old 02-22-2017, 07:23 AM   #19
Woods1
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Default How would you get rid of hiss in this case?

Thanks for the feedback atza.

What would you use to get rid of the hiss in this case?
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:59 AM   #20
Woods1
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Default The Answer (Scratch Re-Do 2)

Here is the latest version of our scratch tracks.

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1

Thanks for your feedback please.

Cioa,
Woods
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Old 02-25-2017, 08:29 AM   #21
Woods1
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Default Kenny talks about setting Project Start Measure to Negative 1

Have you ever done this?

He is demonstrating how to change the bars becasue he says he rarely starts a song on bar 1. because he leaves room for a lead in or an intro.

Do you do this too?

Cioa,
Woods
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Old 02-25-2017, 09:21 AM   #22
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I am clapping along with my song but I am not sure if the tempo is 14 hand claps x 4 = 56 or 28 x 4 = 112.

Do you know which is the right one to use?
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Old 02-25-2017, 11:31 AM   #23
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Going by the pace of the strum and vocals in 4/4 time I reckon (according to my metronome app) you're at 60 bpm.
And yes, I generally leave a bar or two at the beginning of a song for possible intro's/lead-ins/fade-in etc.
If it turns out you don't need/want it later on, it's simple to just delete that extra bar or two.
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Old 02-25-2017, 12:01 PM   #24
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Thanks Bass6. So I was close with my 56 based on clapping and multiplying by 4. someone else a few days ago said they thought hat the tempo was close to 120. And depending on how I clapped I got either 56 or 112.

Anyway would you have the time to answer these questions please ?


So this very moment I'm in the middle of auditioning brushed snare loops with the song as it is recorded now - At the 60 bpm. I am now auditioning a loop that is called: Looploft Art of Brushes in the Jazz Ballad folder. The actual file is called 68_SN_SN_2.

1. When I drag it from the media explorer to a track it looks like it fills to the beginning of bar 3 so is this a 2 bar loop?

2. Does the 68 mean it was recorded at 68 bpm?

3. So just by dragging into the track and I have tempo match "on" does that mean that it will go to 120 bpm?

4. Because when I change Reaper to 68 bpm the loop seems to go a bit faster than if I have reaper set at 120 even with tempo match on?
(120 is where it was when I recorded my song (because I just never fooled with tempo at all initially) -


5. Reaper was set at 120 bpm when I recorded my song. Even though my song is only 60 bpm - Do I have to re-record my song and set Reaper to 60 bpm so that the loop will match correctly?

6. And even now the loop is out of time with the initial recording - I did not record to a metronome to begin with so the timing of the initial recording is all over the place I suspect?

I know some have said I am fiddling too much but surely I have to try to understand this stuff to get this all to work for me?

Ciao,
Woods
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:10 AM   #25
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Default Our Song with Drum Loop

Feedback please.

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1


Ciao,

Woods
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:18 AM   #26
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With so many variables in play, it's difficult to give you precise answers to all your questions (bearing in mind that I'm still a newbie too!).
The drum loop file name could mean anything of course, but it's logical to assume that 68 refers to the tempo, 2 is the bar length, and sn is presumably snare.
In the past I've tied myself in knots by starting with a project in one tempo then adding loops or samples in different tempi, then trying to sort the mess out.
Maybe try this: start a new project;
set your tempo to 68 and save the project with appropriate name;
now drag your drum loop in - it should fill a precise number of bars if the bpm is correct - try playing it with the metronome click switched on & see if it sounds in time;
now drag in your acoustic track and vocal track - they may well sound out of time but you can stretch the recorded tracks to fit the bpm - hover the cursor over the end of the item, then hold down Ctrl, left-click & drag to left or right to fit the bar lengths. This preserves the pitch of any item so it won't sound out of tune, and the difference in bpm is likely to be negligible so it should sound ok.
The vocal can be quite loose timing wise and not matter, but if you're using a drum loop the acoustic strum pattern needs to be quite tight with the loop, so you may want to re-record to nail the timing if it still sounds sloppy after you've stretched it.
This is only a suggestion - there are many ways to skin this cat.
For future projects I would suggest playing along to a metronome before you start recording so you can get the tempo set from the get-go. Saves a lot of headaches down the road!
Hope that helps a bit?
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:55 PM   #27
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Hi Woods1, I posted this a couple years back.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=12

It details the method I used to quantize the audio of multiple tracks to a strict tempo. The results were not good to be used alone, but made for perfect tempo scratch tracks for overdubbing. The idea was to record the whole band in free-time, fix the tempo variations, then overdub in perfect tempo. The reason was because the drummer could not play to metronome.

Alternately, if you cannot play to metronome (or just don't like it) then you can start off with a drum loop adjusted to the tempo of your guitar lick and record with that. Then change the drum loop to something else later.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:10 PM   #28
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I like it although the drum loop is as monotonous as a click track and really needs some variation/fills. Also to me the room sounded too dry, maybe a bit of gentle reverb on the vocal? Good song. Cheers
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Old 03-07-2017, 06:26 PM   #29
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Default Here is an update:

Absolutely the drums are not living long like that. And agreed on the ambience.
So we have added some verb and a bit of delay.

Here is the update:

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1

As always, please critique.

Ciao,
Woods
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:51 AM   #30
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Yep that helps. Will you be adding instruments or are you keeping it solo?
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:32 AM   #31
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I can't say right now. When I began writing it was supposed to be a traditional Irish kind of song - I was thinking frame drum, accordion, whistle, fiddle. But it didn't go there. So now I am in limbo with it. What direction can it or should it go?
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:54 AM   #32
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I would personally keep to the Knopfleresque vibe. A fairly simple root bass and work on the drums, perhaps a lead/rhythm guitar? Sometimes it doesn't hurt to leave a song dead simple and not worry about adding to it at all. It just has to work for you.
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Old 03-09-2017, 08:21 PM   #33
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Default Listened to v4

Sounding good, keep at it. I really like the tune. Since you're asking for critiques (take with however much salt you want, I'm no pro):

Easy on the verb/chorus/delay
Needs better drums - but you know that.
You have an expressive, ear-catchy voice. But there's limited range, don't go too big at the end.

As far as where to take it? I can hear all those Irish instruments you mentioned, or maybe a banjo or mandolin. Just make a few of them fit within the context of the song to give it a little color, but doesn't have to "Irish" per se.
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Old 03-09-2017, 10:00 PM   #34
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Default Glad you like it - it's proving a difficult stone to chisel.

I think of those drums as timing guide that is all - I don't know how to get any vibe whatsoever from a click. This is still just scratch tracks. Everything will be done again. And there is another verse that was inadvertently left out. And chords have changed a bot in the bridge. And there is a vocaless chorus after that. So arrangements are evolving.

This was recorded M/S. It's ok for a demo but as yall know having everything together is limiting.

So there is one more session of the M/S Scratch tracks (Scratch 5). Then a keeper gut track or tracks will be laid down to the scratch. I am going to haul out an old 70s Yamaha for that. The Taylor I used is way too sizzly for digital.
Maybe two mics but leaning to just one right now and then doing another gut track and pan.

Then I will lay vox to that. Have to wait and see how it sounds. But may thicken and widen it. Add salt and pepper and see if there is any room for desert.

Do you know if when recording acoustic guitar if anyone has ever done a pencil up close and then a room mic several feet away? What is the character of that?
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:22 PM   #35
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Default Our "Final" Scratch Track

That's it. No more of this scratch stuff. Enough is enough.

http://www.soundclick.com/html5/v3/p...&q=hi&newref=1

We're not really happy with it but it is what it is. So now we begin to lay down the permanent guitar and vocals. The end is not exactly the way we want it but it will be a challenge to fix it up later.

It is being considered merely an exercise. Might want to copy and paste to make the solo section longer and ad to the outro etc.

Ciao,
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:27 PM   #36
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Great song.
I think I'd prefer this without the drums at all unless some real drums were recorded. And, a more intimate sounding vocal, meaning... No chorus effect, smaller reverb (and guitar in the same reverb space) and reverb/delay less prominent.
Just my preference, of course.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:47 PM   #37
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Agreed. I don't like the sound overall. But I threw stuff on it to try to get wider just for a vibe when scratch tracking. I can't say where it will go from here. It needs some production. I want some production on it but just no real ideas at the moment. Other than just wanting to experiment with ac gut technique. I definitely won't be doing the M/S thing. I think I may record two distinct gut parts and pan.

Thanks for the suggestions,
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