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Old 06-10-2011, 05:04 PM   #1
Peevy
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Default V4...So Far I'm a Bit underwhelmed really..

Before I get into this I just want to get a few things clear. I've been a proud user of Reaper since around v2.4 & was pretty happy with it up until about v3.5 or so, that is until I started trying out a few other DAWs just to see what I've maybe been missing. It started with Ableton Live which I loved so much I just had to snap it up the first chance I got on the kvr Market place. But as fun as Live is there are still a few short comings, such as the arrange view being very basic, no 64-bit version, no comping/take lanes & item fades is also very basic. So I thought I'd stick with Reaper for mixing & recording vocal & guitar takes, thinking that surely things will be way better in v4 (maybe my hopes were a bit too high).

So along comes v4 which is now in its Beta stage & while there have been a lot of great things added like mouse modifiers, Walter, project bays, midi scale options, arpegiated chords...well the list goes on & I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a lot of other great added features. But I think this is one of the main problems with Reaper a lot of stuff gets added but not enough work is put into improving what's already there. Take midi for example IMHO its still a bit of a mess even with some of the added features, I find it very clumsy to work with in comparison to Ableton Lives midi editor. Feature wise Lives Midi isn't up to the same standard as Reaper but it just feels right to work with & draw in. I think Reaper is loosing the plot a bit with all these added dockers, project bays & toolbars. Plus as stable as Reaper generally is it can be a bit cumbersome to edit in, sometimes you have to zoom in a lot just to put a fade on a media item.

Maybe I should hi-light some of the features & improvements I'd like to have seen. I've already said it but midi needs a lot of work still, as mentioned in another post the white windows thing is a bit unprofessional looking, redesigned plugin GUIs (I know not essential but aesthetics can help with workflow, why do you think there's so many different Reaper themes). I always thought Reaper could do a bit of refining on Reatune to compete a bit more with the likes of Cubases VariAudio. A basic score editor would've been nice but I can see that this would probably take a lot of work to implement but maybe it would come some day. For all the improvements WALTER has brought with it, it all still feels FWOABW Flaky(although it is still in beta). The menus are a nightmare to scroll through, I know about Reamenus but this kind of thing should really be sorted by the devs, sometimes there are just too many options & you find yourself wading through them instead of just getting stuck into making some music, a dedicated media editor is also IMO a must have. Toolbars are handy but I would actually like to see a few tools in Reaper.

As you can see most of what I have listed falls under the "improve what's already there category". I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of Reaper users saying "we don't neeed this or I'm happy enough with that & midi works fine for me" But please realise I'm not some Logic or Cubase user coming onto the Reaper forum to put it down, laugh at it, stomp all over it & run away. If I didn't care about Reaper I wouldn't bother sitting writing this while my beers still sitting untouched in the fridge

I was actually considering trying to exclusively work with Live because as limited as it is, it very simple & easy to use, plus I think having limitations can sometimes be a good thing. But I thought I'd have another look around & heard a lot of buzz about Presonus Studio One Pro. Now there's one DAW that I think is getting it right, it really does feel like it was developed by musicians for musicians. I think S1 Pro has a nice balance between simplicity & the complexity needed in a modern day DAW. It could still do with one or to improvements like Folder Tracks & comping is still a bit basic but its still only at v1.6

Maybe I'm asking for a lot but if there's only one thing in my list I'd like the devs to pay attention to its............................PLEASE DROP EVERYTHING ELSE YOUR DOING & FINALLY GIVE REAPER THE MIDI/MIDI EDITOR IT DESERVES!!!
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:34 PM   #2
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Hi Peevy,

I just want to be one of the first to say I think you pretty much nailed it.

I can tell, or at least I think, this pretty much came from your heart.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:01 PM   #3
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Sure midi needs work, but I think R4 is better than "unprofessional", "clumsy", "flaky", etc.

I just finished mastering my second album in R4 and I must say it was a pleasure to use. I use nothing but VSTs and midi (no audio loops), and I haven't run into anything that was worth complaining about...coming from Cubase (used it for 15 years).

Keep up the great work Cockos team!
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:18 PM   #4
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@Peevy: this has been mentioned a million times by many users here. Although I really like Reaper I'm not sure if this issues (especially the midi stuff) will ever get an overhaul. I hope that I've never too much money in my pocket (something that most likely won't ever happen ) because Reapers basic midi editing could make me switch to Cubase.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevy View Post
Maybe I'm asking for a lot but if there's only one thing in my list I'd like the devs to pay attention to its............................PLEASE DROP EVERYTHING ELSE YOUR DOING & FINALLY GIVE REAPER THE MIDI/MIDI EDITOR IT DESERVES!!!
I've felt the same way for over 2 years. The MIDI editor is better but still kinda clumsy. Unfortunately, I don't think the developers are going to focus on it solely. We are just going to get a little MIDI love here and there. Eventually it will get there (maybe REAPER 6).
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:58 PM   #6
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I have no clue of what's going on internally at Cockos but externally I too get a sense of what Peevy is saying.

It seems that some times it's just a case of add feature for feature sake because product X has it or somebody mentioned it. Perhaps this happens without a complete understanding of what problem that feature is meant to address and so it gets implemented in a way that negates it's purpose or in some cases even complicates the problem.

I think there needs to be more of 'what's the problem?" Instead of 'this is cool'.
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:13 PM   #7
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See my signature.
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Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Peevy,

I just want to be one of the first to say I think you pretty much nailed it.

I can tell, or at least I think, this pretty much came from your heart.
Yes this definitely does come from the heart. I remember the first time I really got stuck into Reaper & thinking "wow this is such an impressive DAW at such an unbelievably reasonable price" & I was all into whole open door DIY customizing approach to things. But in this past few months I've yearned for something that just works. Believe me I know about the whole make Reaper your own DAW view. But sometimes you just want things to just work, isn't it time Reaper found its own identity, instead of it becoming the Behemoth of actions, macros & toolbars that its becoming just so people coming form other DAWs can make it feel & work like the DAW they Dumped for Reaper. This open door customisation is one of the things that actually put a lot of potential users of getting into Reaper. I really do think Reaper should have a bit more of a "this is the Reaper way of doing things approach" like other DAWs do it but still have the option to customise it further if you really want to.

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Sure midi needs work, but I think R4 is better than "unprofessional", "clumsy", "flaky", etc.
You see it looks to me like you just saw those words & took them negatively, instead of seeing them in context. "unprofessional", "clumsy", "flaky", etc. isn't a description of Reaper as a whole but just some of the features within Reaper that I think could do with some much needed refinement.

Look Reaperites please believe me, I found it really hard to start this thread....I love Reaper & this forum community we have here is pretty much unmatched when it comes to friendliness & a willingness to help other members. And Cockos must be commended for being trusting enough to allow the use of a non-crippled demo of Reaper in the hope that people like myself & the many others here will see Reaper for the mostly great DAW it is & pay up when the time comes.

Reaper is unsurpassed when it comes to its development cycle with the amount of updates, bug fixes & added features it gets. But when it comes to the extra features part, a lot of this can feel a bit tacked on. Most especially the MIDI side of things. IMHO midi probably needs built from the ground up in order for us to have a midi sequencer/editor we're ALL HAPPY with.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:57 PM   #9
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While I agree with the issues here, I think that there are enough DAWS out there for everyone to make a choice that works for them. And not any one DAW will do everything for everyone. Use whatever works best for whatever it is that you need. I don't see a problem with maybe using a different DAW for midi, for example, and then import it back into Reaper to do the things that Reaper does best. We all have choices.
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Old 06-11-2011, 12:39 AM   #10
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I tend to agree. Also, I definitely don't look at anything you've said as negative. I think most people understand where you're coming from. Reaper is awesome, but I can fully admit that it has some rough edges and areas that could use some "completing."

There are areas that kick ass compared to any DAW I've used and then there are areas that feel half baked.. I hope that after v4 goes final, the devs will devote a lot of time to refining and polishing.

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Old 06-11-2011, 12:45 AM   #11
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I can understand Peevy. I have to say though that I had this kind of love/hate relationship with almost every DAW I used so far and this feeling is even stronger with Reaper. That is, I think, because it has such great potential and does a lot of really advanced things very nicely. On the other hand it lacks severely in some basic functionality (for me also MIDI + e.g. time based grid options) and consistency throughout the program. Unfortunately there is no perfect DAW. Each one has its strong and weak sides.

Regardless of the exceptionally low price (which certainly makes it the most-value-for-money-DAW out there) it is a great program and V4 brings some really nice additions. Is it enough to keep me using Reaper using as my main DAW? I don't know yet, but I'll keep hoping that the issues that bug me the most get addressed some time not to far in the future.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:04 AM   #12
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I think the biggest problem of Reaper midi editing is the lack of global editing, otherwise I can do almost everything I do in the other Daws.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:25 AM   #13
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Oh, maybe I should mention that I was referring to Reaper 3.x since I haven't checked out v4 as for now. So I'm looking forward to see what v4 has to offer.
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:24 AM   #14
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somehow i didn't find severe problems that could preserve from creating something genius.
instead reaper has so many pros that i can forgive him many nuances
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Old 06-11-2011, 03:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junkfood View Post
I tend to agree. Also, I definitely don't look at anything you've said as negative. I think most people understand where you're coming from. Reaper is awesome, but I can fully admit that it has some rough edges and areas that could use some "completing."

There are areas that kick ass compared to any DAW I've used and then there are areas that feel half baked.. I hope that after v4 goes final, the devs will devote a lot of time to refining and polishing.
There definitely are a few rough edges here & there, & instead of adding feature after feature, I think a lot more time could be put in to sorting these things out. Reaper does have a few advantages over other DAWs, like the extremely powerful routing possibilities, the MIDI/audio duality of tracks & a few others that I just can't recall right now (I'm only up out of bed, need my cup of coffee). I don't expect to be perfect but just a bit better than it is now & with a bit of sanding off of those rough edges, Reaper could become the really great DAW it has the potential to be. I just remembered a couple of other parts of Reaper that need work such as comping & take lanes which is still a bit of a Mess at the minute. The implementation of multitimbral multi output vstis, could also be better. Cubase does the comping side of things really well & l really like the way Presonus S1 handles multi timbral, multi output instruments.
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevy View Post
There definitely are a few rough edges here & there, & instead of adding feature after feature, I think a lot more time could be put in to sorting these things out.
Yes. That is definitely true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevy View Post
Reaper does have a few advantages over other DAWs, like the extremely powerful routing possibilities
But routing implementation has also some rough edges, like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevy View Post
The implementation of multitimbral multi output vstis, could also be better.
and routing inside FX chain is unnecessarily difficult.


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Old 06-11-2011, 04:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peevy View Post
I don't expect to be perfect but just a bit better than it is now & with a bit of sanding off of those rough edges, Reaper could become the really great DAW it has the potential to be.
I hear ya Peevy! Coming from the "Land of Cubendo" myself... one of the things I just don't get is the way Reaper doesn't allow you to automate the Play Rate and keep the audio files in tune. I've learned to get around this in Reaper using the Tempo Markers Flags (whatever you may call them) to change tempo and keep the pitch of my wav files mostly on key. However, when you use try to automate the tempo using the Play Rate (which would be WAY faster that the Markers IMHO) the audio goes WAY out of tune.

Now for me, I don't know why the Devs didn't design Reaper to work this way and WHY the Play Rate automation behaves this way. In Cubendo, it works great! I can automate the tempo just like automating the volume of a track. Much faster and stream line for sure.

I always felt that Reaper should grab the best features from other daws and try to implement them. Perhaps Cockos is doing this but in their own way? Dunno.

One thing I REALLY like about Reapers midi is the way I can click on a midi note and adjust the velocity with my mouse! Not sure if you can do this in the latest version of Cubendo but it's one of the things I like about Reaper!

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Old 06-11-2011, 05:21 AM   #18
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i'm guessing the play rate is supposed to simulate tape being slowed and sped up. Don't personally see any problem with setting up tempo markers, and with v4 you can automate pitch as well.
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:13 AM   #19
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i'm guessing the play rate is supposed to simulate tape being slowed and sped up.
HA! Perhaps you're right about that!

Perhaps with all the ways one can customize Reaper, this could be an option under preferences eh?
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:54 AM   #20
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Well since I bought an iPad 2 yesterday I can actually type with 2 hands and comment on this instead of punching on my iPhone. Love the IPad btw... joined the Netflix trial yesterday just to watch movies in my hotel room. Pretty sweet. Anyway...

It all boils down to this... (IMO) ... the OP comments...

Reapers has fantastic potential far beyond (apparently) the current vision of it. It's great to have an affordable product that works but it's in version 4 and there are parts of it that still feel like a new development project. Nobody could rationally argue that it's not a great DAW, only that "refinement" seems to take a backseat maybe too often.

So it's less "complaining" than it is wondering... IMO. Wondering why certain methodologies that have proven to be a little flawed in the past (rush to just add a feature without really considering how it all fits, see takes) are being duplicated. If the user base prefers lots of unfinished bits then that's a good strategy. If not, maybe not.

WALTER was a good move that put critical focus on the UI. Great job. Aside from the UI are there any large features in v4 that are actually fully complete? Or is a lot of it just 1/2 3/4 done?

I do think the "philosophy" of just adding more and more things without some of them being fully thought through causes what we see with comping, saving comps, the midi filters and some other things. You get everything you want but very little of it is "complete". Lots of it reads well on paper but some of it isn't so good isn practice.

My wish for the post release is to stop adding stuff and fully refine everything that's already there... first. Honestly, I'm less annoyed by a feature that isn't there at all than by something that is there but just a little clunky. This race to "out feature" the big boys may not beg the best path forward, especially if it all doesn't fit together tidily.

My $.02 as someone who loves the application...

Peace all. I'm of to the alligator farm with the family. Having a ball here in Florida.
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:26 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Well since I bought an iPad 2 yesterday I can actually type with 2 hands and comment on this instead of punching on my iPhone. Love the IPad btw... joined the Netflix trial yesterday just to watch movies in my hotel room. Pretty sweet. Anyway...

It all boils down to this... (IMO) ... the OP comments...

Reapers has fantastic potential far beyond (apparently) the current vision of it. It's great to have an affordable product that works but it's in version 4 and there are parts of it that still feel like a new development project. Nobody could rationally argue that it's not a great DAW, only that "refinement" seems to take a backseat maybe too often.

So it's less "complaining" than it is wondering... IMO. Wondering why certain methodologies that have proven to be a little flawed in the past (rush to just add a feature without really considering how it all fits, see takes) are being duplicated. If the user base prefers lots of unfinished bits then that's a good strategy. If not, maybe not.

WALTER was a good move that put critical focus on the UI. Great job. Aside from the UI are there any large features in v4 that are actually fully complete? Or is a lot of it just 1/2 3/4 done?

I do think the "philosophy" of just adding more and more things without some of them being fully thought through causes what we see with comping, saving comps, the midi filters and some other things. You get everything you want but very little of it is "complete". Lots of it reads well on paper but some of it isn't so good isn practice.

My wish for the post release is to stop adding stuff and fully refine everything that's already there... first. Honestly, I'm less annoyed by a feature that isn't there at all than by something that is there but just a little clunky. This race to "out feature" the big boys may not beg the best path forward, especially if it all doesn't fit together tidily.

My $.02 as someone who loves the application...

Peace all. I'm of to the alligator farm with the family. Having a ball here in Florida.
Totally agree with the OP and all my other folks that have shared their feeling. Also agree with my buddy Lawrence has well put too.

And I believe as myself do feel the same indeed. And yes indeed that is one thing I love about other DAW Devs is that they just don't go and put a or tones a features there just for the hell of saying or for the fact that many have "VOTE +1 or +++ 1 millions to get that feature Request".

All comes down to, please Cockos Team, we know that lately they have been quite because we know they are working hard (and i mean it) but Cockos need to really read and hear us and work on making what in Reaper rock solid and steady and well polished before coming with other new add-ons etc...

Because at the end, it's like having so many TOOLS and Choice and path to do this or that SWS this SWS that, Action this re-action that without consistency. As they say "less is more" I would say "less is sometimes more" meaning don't take away the Reaper Philosophy of having thousands of ways to do 1 thing but make the ones that could become a Standard in Reaper and leave inside Reaper those Into Depth functions available for those more adventures.

All that to say that Reaper Rock and rock solid. Since I got my new i7 system, been working in R4 Alpha to Beta and looooooooooving it but share the same feelings as many on different post addressing many things starting from Midi Editor and so on.

In the past 2 months (coming from Cubase users of it for over 8yrs) don't miss Cubase as at all but miss that well integrated features). I'm also a big Fan of Studio One the thing is that as well is missing lots of features but at least they just don't add features just to add. When they ADD them, it's Rock solid and its well integrated.

And that is I believe the MAIN CALL here that I can read from all of us asking Reaper Team Cockos to consider and hear.

Until then mates, lets keep doing great music along some frustrations and wishes and FR

Wish all you an amazing weekend, mostly smile

Cheers!

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Old 06-11-2011, 07:32 AM   #22
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I hear ya Peevy, and put me down as a +1.

I'm a relatively new (paid) Reaper user, and have enjoyed being a part of the alpha and beta testing.

Like many here, I work with different people in different studios - each using a different program. For that reason, I'm a registered user of Live, Logic and Pro Tools.

I recently did some cues for a film at a friend's studio. Before the session began, I was busy spreading the Reaper gospel. I gave a quick rewire demo into Tools on my laptop which impressed everyone. However, once we got down to working on the cues (which were on a PT 9 HD system), I found myself saying, "I wish it worked like this in Reaper".

I'm not talking about features. In my opinion, Reaper has almost everyone beat. I'm talking mostly about workflow. Little things like window focusing and huge things like track comping are a big deal to me when the clock is ticking and deadlines are looming. It's not that you can't do these things in Reaper, it's just that workflow seems clunky and unrefined.

Routing multiple outs of a VSTi shouldn't be the cluster---- that it is. I realize that templates can be made (a feature I love btw), but I don't have a multi-out template for every plugin, and if we were working in Reaper, I would have had to stop the session to set one up. Logic sets up your signal pathways and busses for you after you instantiate the plug in. These are the little touches that help things move along faster.

[EDIT] I know that Reaper will setup a multi-out plugin for you when instantiated, but in true Reaper fashion, it's a "I'll give you everything (by setting up 16 faders for this plug when I only want 3) or nothing (build it by hand)" approach.

I think the terms "rough around the edges" and "diamond in the rough" are over used here, but they do apply to Reaper. I often imagine what it would be like once it's been filled and shined up.

My 2 cents....

tg

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Old 06-11-2011, 07:41 AM   #23
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So true, Peevy! I asked myself why I didn't decide to jump on the v4 alpha/beta bandwagon, and this is pretty much it: too many new features that will be dropped again – or not – and, above all, the feeling that v4 "isn't there yet".
The lack of a half-logical documentation is another aspect that keeps me from even configurating v4. There's so much new stuff to customize, I really don't know where to start. I think I would need a whole week for doing this, but I have to work, and I don't even know if, once set up, my preferences will be compatible to the final product in the end.
And to be honest, I don't like a single theme so far. They may look super appealing at first glance, but when I tried to actually work with e.g. "Rado v4", it physically hurts. I had to go back to "Rado v3" immediately.

I'll stay with 3.76 until the release of 4.0x. Too late to complain then, I know, but it's just too time consuming to keep track of all the "maybe/maybe not" stuff. The downside of user democracy: 50% want a feature, and 50% don't. The devs should once and for all decide which features will be included and fine-tuned in 4.0, and which will be postponed until 4.1.
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:54 AM   #24
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Ah, this old chestnut again.

The thing is...no DAW will ever be everything to everybody. What may be entirely underwhelming to your workflow may be features that revolutionize someone else's. And it ultimately becomes either a zero-sum game (where one ideology wins out over another) or a kludge (where there are so many minute optional features that just setting the program up takes weeks and a master's degree) when you try to please everyone, that's why it's so important that developers have a clear vision and specific goals and a path to accomplish said aims.

When you insist that your needs and workflow are more important than other "less significant" features, you really need to make that case beyond just your own limitations and issues because each one of those "less significant" features is significant to someone (at the very least, the developers who decided to spend the time implementing whatever it is). And, indeed, you'll probably find that if you do make the case others will agree with you: there are certainly features which have been added that had workarounds which were very simple (versus some of the issues mentioned in the OP for which there aren't necessarily always workarounds). But you have to make that case, otherwise it's just personal venting (which is fine for accomplishing the task of blowing off steam but it's not really the most effective way to get a good discussion thread going on a feature request).

There's nothing wrong with pointing out the ways that certain features and functions are impeding your attempts to get things done. As I'm sure we've all seen on these forums, many times those questions, complaints and 'petty' nitpicks turn into feature improvements, so I don't think it's to anyone's advantage to stifle these sorts of conversations.

But there's no need to take it so personally or assume that your workflow is the most important. It's one thing to make a request or a suggestion, it's quite another to make broad assumptions and get all huffy about what is 'best' when I can assure you that what is best for you is not necessarily what everyone else is looking for. The fact is that, unlike some claims on these forums, REAPER is not in any way a democracy and, I would guess, the extent that JCS make it appear so is more of a cultural identity of REAPER than an actual coding methodology (as in, the devs are great at making people feel like their input directly caused feature_X or feature_Y but that may or may not be the case). The fact that Cockos does try hard to please their user base doesn't mean that they code by democracy or have no vision, simply that they're adept at making people feel like their input matters. I just don't see the downside to that beyond the frequent accusation (which I dispute) that the devs are too easily influenced by forum opinion.

As to the complaints about the infancy and fluctuation of version 4...it's still in beta. Surely you don't expect themers to have dug in and produced the massive themes that will come when 4.0 has been around long enough for people to:
-get to know WALTER and all the new theming changes
-have time to actually develop
-wait for 4 to get out of beta (there could still be changes made to the theme engine like the forthcoming metering changes some are awaiting)

So I think it's way too early to complain about the lack of themes and documentation, it would be seriously premature (and would take a lot of extra time and effort to continually keep up with the developmental changes) to produce too much of that stuff for a beta.

It's totally an option, of course, to skip the alpha/beta stages (I skipped most of the Alphas precisely because the changes were so huge sometimes from one version to the next so I was pretty late to the v4 party) but, indeed, you do lose your input then. Although that's potentially less critical in REAPER than other software as the devs actively refine and add features on mini releases all the time.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:01 AM   #25
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Blasphemy! To the guillotine we shall send him!! Attaaaacckk!!



I agree with the core argument - there are things that feel unfinished. Midi needs improvement. ReaTune is WONDERFUL but not quite there. There are a few things that feel like they're 80% done, but not completely. The GUI of the Reaplugs, meh - I think someone else should take that up instead of wasting cockos' time.

Menu options - I've used the menu editor to design a quite alrite menu for me, but I do empathize with you.

I've been working with R4 lately and I feel it to be a HUGE step above the v3 mainly because of the pleasing theme (RADO V4). I can't imagine going back to v3 now. I'm so hooked. God save me.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:09 PM   #26
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It seems that Reaper has won people's hearts by taking a strong stance on 1.) Bug fixing and 2.) Feature updates. Reaper is technically stable and the addition of new features is impressive.

They have been very clear about that, saying that bug fixing has first priority and feature updates have second. And the selection of what features to implement is influenced by the factors: user desire, developer's personal interest and difficulty. This is a good and flexible philosophy.

But the whole concept of REFINING seem to lack a place in this philosophy, at least if one looks at what has been communicated. I'm sure that the devs have their own opinions about this. But maybe it's not so clearly acknowledged becuase it wasn't part of the initial vision. Maybe they didn't see coming the need to take as clear a stance on this subject as they did with bugs and FR's.

Bear with me for speculating upon what goes on in other's minds. But it is difficult to keep from wondering.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:24 PM   #27
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my opinion is that it's been an awesome upgrade so far, and it's the same way they do things, and always have-- which will work for some people and not others.
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:29 PM   #28
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@peevy I agree totally... and I LOVE Reaper! I even left a PTHD full rig, for it, as I thought it was more powerful, leaner and loved its approach and small footprint.. i also used Ableton which is great for loop manipulation, and Logic 8 for MIDI, all running into Reaper as a 'recorder'

Even in the 3.xx versions, I rarely used the MIDI and concentrated on the audio side, which i thought was brilliant.

BUT i still needed to go to an audio editor to small tasks, edits and area selection/area processing whereby i select in Sound Forge and "see' the waveform update with FX..(but a better version of PT's audiosuite)

Reaper was the closest thing to this, and to the old Sound Forge, Vegas, Acid Pro etc workflow all rolled into one, and for 15 years have been looking for an all in one- SF, Multi-track, Acid equivalent, and Reaper I think is sooo close.. (PT does all this, but its so old and clunky now)

Anyway with v4 I was hoping for its biggest FR yet, with Area selection, and editing like a multi-track Sound Forge, with editing in place...

but unfortunately not... (as yet, and some have said it won't be implemented now)

Then in the last few days, i've gotten a little lost when working on projects, to try and set up a simple 'bounce in place' function, which Reaper had too many options which got really complicated trying to find the correct action for a macro!

So im sure Reaper has some great stuff up its sleeve, but so far, im very underwhelmed with v4 if im honest (and im using the v4 beta) and will continue to use it as i'm emotionally attached as most of us here are!

But (dare i say it) im quite looking forward to Logic 10 when its released to see what that brings, as I believe PT is now no longer top of the tree, and I think Reaper could take its crown, with better audio editing for foley, and dialogue all in the timeline before the others catch up..
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:52 PM   #29
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Well, I think Reaper is great, I'm still very much in the process of wrapping my head around it still, and will probably be doing so for quite some time.

I do agree though, with this feeling about refinement in some areas.
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grayter1 View Post

Routing multiple outs of a VSTi shouldn't be the cluster---- that it is. I realize that templates can be made (a feature I love btw), but I don't have a multi-out template for every plugin, and if we were working in Reaper, I would have had to stop the session to set one up. Logic sets up your signal pathways and busses for you after you instantiate the plug in. These are the little touches that help things move along faster.


tg
though I am globally very satisfied with reaper i must say that this is inedeed a major problem. finding out how to set up a multi-out vst was a nightmare. And it's still cumbersome to set up once you know how to do it.
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:34 PM   #31
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IMO Reaper 4's central "theme" has definitely been WALTER and that's ok with me, looking at ver.3 the biggest problem for a newbie user was that the interface was totally fugly. There's only so much the devs can do, so I don't see a lot of sense in complaining, but like many others I hope that the "theme" for Reaper 5 will be MIDI.
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Old 06-11-2011, 05:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grayter1 View Post
I recently did some cues for a film at a friend's studio. Before the session began, I was busy spreading the Reaper gospel. I gave a quick rewire demo into Tools on my laptop which impressed everyone. However, once we got down to working on the cues (which were on a PT 9 HD system), I found myself saying, "I wish it worked like this in Reaper".

I'm not talking about features. In my opinion, Reaper has almost everyone beat. I'm talking mostly about workflow. Little things like window focusing and huge things like track comping are a big deal to me when the clock is ticking and deadlines are looming. It's not that you can't do these things in Reaper, it's just that workflow seems clunky and unrefined.
Spell out those reasons. Tell everyone about the workflow gems you find elsewhere. Even if you can't think of a way about how that may work in Reaper, someone else might come up with an idea.

What we need to get used to and tell anyone who breathlessly throws an idea out there with enormous enthusiasm is that ideas that require a lot of work to implement don't get put in to the next release in a few days.

Quote:
I know that Reaper will setup a multi-out plugin for you when instantiated, but in true Reaper fashion, it's a "I'll give you everything (by setting up 16 faders for this plug when I only want 3) or nothing (build it by hand)" approach.
Yeah, that setup dialogue could use some improvement. Did I see anyone raising their hand to write that down and put it in an FR ? Because random thoughts, as well as they work for a discussion, they require too much of the developers time to find, so put them where they'll be read.

It's a tough break for some folks who've had their ideas implemented in the next release, and that's a lot of us here, but that's just the most efficient way right now.

Write that shit down, and continue to wail on the developers whereever you can grab their attention, but do present a well reasoned argument. This is where a lot of people will not put in the necessary work, but that is what it takes.

"Hey Cockos, the Project Bay is asking me for a filename for a new bay, but it's not actually saving them. Because of A, B and C, it would be the best solution IMHO to autosave the bay at every change and keep a backup for undos."

That was a workflow fix, and not so much a feature request. I wailed on the lads for weeks about this at every opportunity(within reason), in the Project Bay thread, in the alpha and beta threads, and for beta 8 the workflow problem was fixed. There are more examples of this.

Perseverance pays off. At least it has in many cases.

You want to show how well something works in Cubase ? Grab a screencapture app and record a typical workflow situationt that you know Reaper performs poorly in. Present your approach here somewhere before posting a feature request, or throwing it at Cockos when they're working on an area relevant to your request. You have to get creative about this and not sit back.
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Perseverance pays off. At least it has in many cases.

You want to show how well something works in Cubase ? Grab a screencapture app and record a typical workflow situationt that you know Reaper performs poorly in. Present your approach here somewhere before posting a feature request, or throwing it at Cockos when they're working on an area relevant to your request. You have to get creative about this and not sit back.
I'm trying airon.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=80973

Heh heh, I'm trying...
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Old 06-11-2011, 06:18 PM   #34
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Good example.
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Spell out those reasons. Tell everyone about the workflow gems you find elsewhere. Even if you can't think of a way about how that may work in Reaper, someone else might come up with an idea.
Agreed. I'm new here, but I'll start throwing those items out. Reaper is a massive program, but one that I grow more fond of as the days go by. It would be awesome to see it reach it's full potential...

tg
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:38 PM   #36
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I've been a user since right around the beginning of 3.X and honestly on a day to day basis I find new possibilities of workflows that have been around forever that I just didnt know existed.

It pays to do forum searches and start a new thread to ask a question when something bugs you. I've done it. I've been a user for a while and doing it has made me feel like a tool and a noob on occasion, but it has 99% of the time been helpful and worth it.

That said I still feel take comping is a bit cludgy, and I dont work with a ton of midi...
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:16 PM   #37
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I wish you deleted this post. Its not the content, but the timing.

They're fervently working on the betas and their morale needs to be at an all-time high to boost creativity and whatnot. Posts like these dont help.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:04 AM   #38
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I am just hoping for a take system that works like in Cubase and some improvements of midi editing.

Other than that I think Reaper is close to what I like. A few highlights for me that jump to mind are:

- I can have two windows: One with tracks, the other with everything else in tabbed views, including the mixer. Just love this.
- I can set up tracks and folders and save them as templates, then use them as modules for building new projects.
- Just love the render function. One click and I have a mixdown of everything in a folder with automatic muting of the original with its vst effects, thus saving cpu. Still, I can easily go back if further editing is needed.
- I can route like crazy.
- I can navigate like crazy using the scroll button on the mouse.
- Mouse modifiers will serve me well, once they get it to work (eraser not working well in midi).
-
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:34 AM   #39
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I'm curious and have a question for you all.

Do you test the default Reaper, or a customized one ?


I usually change a few things in the preferences and load my own keymap. I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be a bad idea for Cockos to collect Reaper.inis and keymaps and perhaps change a few of the defaults if at least half the users have changed a certain option.
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Old 06-12-2011, 05:49 AM   #40
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whenever i watch a video involving other DAWs, especially when it's Logic or PT, and see the workflow I'm always glad i use Reaper

but imo, nothing beats Live for composing and arranging so i use that and Reaper for mixing. Live can't touch Reaper when mixing

Reaper 4 looks to be a great upgrade
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