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04-18-2010, 01:06 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Easier Parameter Activation and Automation
This thread is meant to be used for discussion of a feature request that was posted in the issue tracker.
REQUEST NOW POSTED IN ISSUE TRACKER : http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2360
The Problems
Each plugin parameter needs to be activated by handWhile it's true that you can achieve this via moving all parameters, this is cumbersome at best. For one, Reaper does not treat loading of a preset as 'moving the knobs and sliders'. Parameter Active and arming status lost when copying pluginsReaper also does not copy the activation status and automation data when you copy a plugin either within its own track in the FX chain window, or in the insert area of the Mix Control Panel(MCP). The only way to copy the parameter-active status and their automation is to duplicate the track. Parameter Active & Arming status NOT saved with track template or fx chainThis prevents the user from prearranging the automation status for plugins in advance. The result is a long laberous process of activating and arming parmaeters for automation every time for every plugin on every track. Lane for parameter needs to be visible to record automation for itUseful to some, a serious workflow impediment for any mixer relying on quick and easy automation recording for mixing.
NeedsActivationMixers often need to activate parameters quickly and write a complete pass across the entire session before they start their work. When you're mixing 50 tracks with EQs you've set up, this is a time consuming affair in Reaper, constricting you to using session templates and moving your audio in to that for mixing, because track templates do not contain parameter activation statuses. Arming and Disarming across tracksMixers often need to work only on one of the plugins, or just the volume and pan, and need to write this across a range, leaving other parameters untouched by the writing functions. This is also a domain of the preview function found in many consoles and other DAWs. Envelope visibilityThe mixers don't need to see envelopes until they're editing them hands-on, which does not happen as often as you may think. Envelopes are often used to check and correct. In fact, recording automation without having it displayed is the first choice when recording plugin autoamtion. Arm, set, write, next. Plugin ManagementCopying plugins usually means the parameters that were active will need to be kept active, and its automation copied along with it. It's easier to delete automation than to copy it from track to track. SolutionsActivation 1The envelope window only allows the user to click on one parameter checkbox at a time, be it for activation, arming or others. The simple solution is to let the user SHIFT+click the parameter names to choose a range, and CTRL+click to add to or remove from a selection of parameters. Only clicking on the names will change the parameter selection. This should even be possible across all plugins in the envelope window. Selection of parameters in the envelope window could also happen via click and drag, to select a range. This would in fact be quicker than SHIFT+click as it requires one key and one mouse click less. Activation 2CTRL+clicking on the plugins name, which is next to the collapse/expand control, activate and arms all parameters of that plugin. Activation 3Having certain plugins have all their parameters activated by default, which includes ReaEQ for example as it can add and delete parameters on the fly. Arming and Disarming across tracksArming and disarming of groups of parameters across selected tracks and globally is a basic shortcut around doing it to every checkbox in every envelope window in every track. It has already been posted as a feature request for the SWS extension, but this ought to be possible natively, globally and for selected tracks. The actions:
Quote:
Arm all active
Disarm all active
Toggle Arming of Volume
Toggle Arming of Pan
Toggle Arming of Mute
Toggle Arming of Send Level
Toggle Arming of Send Pan
Toggle Arming of Send Mute
Toggle Arming of Plugins All
Toggle Arming of Plugin 1
Toggle Arming of Plugin 2
Toggle Arming of Plugin 3
Toggle Arming of Plugin 4
Toggle Arming of Plugin 5
Toggle Arming of Plugin 6
Toggle Arming of Plugin 7
Toggle Arming of Plugin 8
Toggle Arming of Plugin 9
Toggle Arming of Plugin 10
Toggle Arming of Plugin 11
Toggle Arming of Plugin 12
Toggle Arming of Plugin 13
Toggle Arming of Plugin 14
Toggle Arming of Plugin 15
Toggle Arming of Plugin 16
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Envelope visibilityEnvelopes should not need to be visible to be automatable. A simple illustration of why this is not good by default, is to think of 50 tracks, each with some plugins on them the mixer is automating. With just ten parameters per track(a very low estimate) that's 500 lanes, because these parameters have to be automatable at the drop of a hat and with minimal preparation. Forced visibility of the envelopes is a hindrance in this case and severely compromises the efficiency of the mixing workflow, as the mixer is usually interested in seeing the material if anything, not hundreds of envelope lanes. We already have actions to show and hide all active envelopes. If need be, that's what the mixer will invoke.
Context menu entries to show all envelopes of a particular plugin would be another welcome shortcut. It's often not necessary to see all activated plugin parameters on a track. The envelope window with the suggested enhancements suggested above could be used, but seeing as we can make individual lanes visible with the context menu of the envelope button on a track, adding a 'All active'(shows all active) and 'All'(activates and shows all plugin parameters) will help. Plugin ManagementHave automation activity and arming status saved in track templates and fx chains.
Have automation status and content copied along with plugins by default.
Last edited by airon; 04-22-2010 at 05:08 PM.
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04-18-2010, 01:14 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Envelope visibility
Envelopes should not need to be visible to be automatable. A simple illustration of why this is not good by default, is to think of 50 tracks, each with some plugins on them the mixer is automating. With just ten parameters per track(a very low estimate) that's 500 lanes, because these parameters have to be automatable at the drop of a hat and with minimal preparation. Forced visibility of the envelopes is a hindrance in this case and severely compromises the efficiency of the mixing workflow, as the mixer is usually interested in seeing the material if anything, not hundreds of envelope lanes. We already have actions to show and hide all active envelopes. If need be, that's what the mixer will invoke.
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This. +1000!
And a +100 on everything else.
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04-18-2010, 01:14 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 1,562
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How about a "parameter matrix" view, where you can select a loaded plugin, and then see on one axis the instances of that plugin, and the other axis the parameters. You can set/reset automation status here, and double-clicking the column/row headings would set/reset that entire row/column? Standard Windows/Excel multi-select behaviors would apply.
That wouldn't cover ALL of what you're talking about, but it would be a nice place to manage plugin automation, much as the Routing Matrix does for track I/O.
Just a thought.
Scott
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04-18-2010, 01:15 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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What kind of monstrous matrix would that be for VSTs which have 500+ automatable parameters? (NI Kontakt, u-he Zebra...)
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04-18-2010, 01:23 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 1,562
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A scrollable one, I'd imagine...but you have to be able to get at them somehow, no?
Scott
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04-18-2010, 01:43 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,257
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With a filter to find what you are looking for?
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Music is the best
เพลง ที่ดีที่สุดคือ
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04-18-2010, 01:45 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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In a way, that's what the envelope window already is. How would we pick the plugin to be displayed in such a matrix ?
I imagine the automation status could be indicated with colour, the activation status with a filled square and the arming status with a filled circle.
Last edited by airon; 04-18-2010 at 01:50 PM.
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04-18-2010, 01:46 PM
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,588
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Yeah +1
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04-18-2010, 02:31 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,002
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Ok, I'd vote 1000 times if I could (already voted in all your suggestions already)
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I want to live PEACEFULLY PLEASE WORLD "LEADERS" GET THIS DONE/LET IT BE FOR GOOD AND MAKE HISTORYYYYYYY! Thanks.
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04-18-2010, 06:19 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cowtown
Posts: 1,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
... How would we pick the plugin to be displayed in such a matrix ?
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I'd see a combo box to select from the list of plugins currently used in the project...select a plugin, and the matrix fills with that plugin's parameters and instances where it's used.
Scott
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04-19-2010, 02:01 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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I'll get a mockup going Tuesday evening or Wednesday. Got some shows to do on a tight deadline.
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04-19-2010, 05:32 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 510
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- when a plugin is added, by default its list of parameters could be collapsed.
- clicking a parameter "arm" switch can also not show the envelope line. (optional?)
global switches to the current envelope window:
Code:
[-] plugin name filter:|________|
[enable all] [show all] [arm all] [learn all] [ui all]
[x] param name [x] [x] [x] [x]
[x] param name [x] [x] [x] [x]
the "show all", "arm all" etc buttons should be visible when the list is collapsed.
"learn all" could be a step-by-step enquiry with back / next.
and perhaps an option to save/load the settings for a plugin:
e.g.: myPluginName.ReaperMidiLearnTemplate
the manipulation of parameters of plugin instances across tracks would be a separate window, which might make the parameter list in the current envelope window obsolete.
though consider, that copying the parameter status when copying a plugin might be not be desired in all cases.
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04-19-2010, 06:23 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liteon
- when a plugin is added, by default its list of parameters could be collapsed.
- clicking a parameter "arm" switch can also not show the envelope line. (optional?)
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That should be a switch in the prefs, probably on by default for the folks who are used to it. It'll be the first thing I will switch off.
Quote:
global switches to the current envelope window:
Code:
[-] plugin name filter:|________|
[enable all] [show all] [arm all] [learn all] [ui all]
[x] param name [x] [x] [x] [x]
[x] param name [x] [x] [x] [x]
the "show all", "arm all" etc buttons should be visible when the list is collapsed.
"learn all" could be a step-by-step enquiry with back / next.
and perhaps an option to save/load the settings for a plugin:
e.g.: myPluginName.ReaperMidiLearnTemplate
the manipulation of parameters of plugin instances across tracks would be a separate window, which might make the parameter list in the current envelope window obsolete.
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Maybe. That depends on the design. It would have to be able to list the plugins and their parameters for a particular track as well. That new control window could be a godsend, as it may be the way to arm/disarm certain plugins for automation writing across the entire session.
It could conceivably be one of the best snapshot automation systems.
Quote:
though consider, that copying the parameter status when copying a plugin might be not be desired in all cases.
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That is true. For those cases it'll be easier to wipe the automation with the "Enable All" toggle button. Perhaps actions of the "Enable All" and "Arm All" toggles could live in the context menu of the plugins, be it in the insert area of the MCP or the entry in the FX Chain window.
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04-19-2010, 07:06 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Actually, before this FR becomes reality, I'd like to see SWIPE MOTIONS on EVERYTHING in Reaper.
This means: envelope window, routing matrix, grouping matrix, rec-arm button, etc.
This is INDISPENSIBLE for quick workflow. Airon will agree for sure
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=50476
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04-19-2010, 08:23 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Activation 2
CTRL+clicking on the plugins name, which is next to the collapse/expand control, activate and arms all parameters of that plugin.
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That alone would be a big step forward for me
+1
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04-21-2010, 05:13 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Ok, I'm going to post this feature request in the issue tracker some time tomorrow.
Scott, the thing you suggested is another one entirely, but we can keep discussing it here, and I'll create a mockup that I'll post here, tomorrow I should hope.
EvilDragon, your swipe idea is already part of the Routing Matrix Improvements request which you can vote on here. That would be pretty cool for any list view.
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04-21-2010, 05:23 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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+1 to the original post especially the visibility part.
The automation system is (imo) a bit of a mess. There's some illogical things there and forced visibility of envelopes is right at the top of the list. It really defeats one of the purposes of automation lanes if you can't collapse them without disabling the automation in them?
I never got that. The menu says "Hide Envelope" which in reality means "Disable Envelope". And last time I checked (maybe different now, dunno) you still can't drag/select and select automation nodes across multiple tracks.
Last edited by Lawrence; 04-21-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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04-21-2010, 07:41 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
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hmm it seems pretty clear that Automation has some lumps that need ironing -
all the above seems sensible - reminded me of this mini-bug rant:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...55&postcount=1
relates to global automation mode not being particularly global because of some of the aforementioned issues, as it says, i was trying out global as per track automation was getting on my nerves.
too many windows and buttons and weird stuff going on personally.
am sure it will get some attention from the lovely dev men if coherent voices make a fuss.
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04-22-2010, 12:47 AM
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#19
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
+1 to the original post especially the visibility part.
The automation system is (imo) a bit of a mess. There's some illogical things there and forced visibility of envelopes is right at the top of the list. It really defeats one of the purposes of automation lanes if you can't collapse them without disabling the automation in them?
I never got that. The menu says "Hide Envelope" which in reality means "Disable Envelope". And last time I checked (maybe different now, dunno) you still can't drag/select and select automation nodes across multiple tracks.
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That's not quite correct. Hiding envelopes doesn't disable their function.
Track parameters are inconsistent in that they will not properly follow the read mode status, so eg a track volume fader will not move even in read mode. Instead of a fader that flies with the automation as read mode would suggest you have a trim fader. The hidden envelope is still active and working nevertheless.
This is not an issue with plugin envelopes, FX gui knobs will always follow the envelope, also when hidden.
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04-22-2010, 06:31 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
That's not quite correct. Hiding envelopes doesn't disable their function.
Track parameters are inconsistent in that they will not properly follow the read mode status, so eg a track volume fader will not move even in read mode. Instead of a fader that flies with the automation as read mode would suggest you have a trim fader. The hidden envelope is still active and working nevertheless.
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Thanks for the correction Gofer. It's... well... quite confusing and illogical. Yes, turning off the visibility of volume envelope turns off fader movement...
Thanks Gofer.
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04-22-2010, 04:52 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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04-24-2010, 06:54 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
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Btw, this doesn't mean you can't post ideas for this. Go ahead. The best ideas were developed by more than one person in this forum.
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04-29-2010, 04:58 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Quick boost.
Keep the votes coming. I reckon this is step 2 in the saga for getting speed and convenience in to Reaper for mixers working a lot with automation.
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06-17-2010, 10:23 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
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Part of this is now done. Head on over to the prerelease forum to find out more. Keep those votes coming folks.
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06-27-2010, 04:26 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Bump.
Any automation user should take a hard look at the request and add their own two cents in this discussion thread. Do the work, so you have to do less later.
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08-04-2010, 08:14 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Bumped.
Wouldn't YOU like to handle automation parameters without lanes popping up all over the place, and 100 x faster than it is now ?
I have to. How about you ?
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08-09-2010, 01:02 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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We're up to 84 votes here. We're on a good way. Anyone mixing his own records will want to support this request, as it's currently just a lot of unnecessary work to setup and handle automation in Reaper.
Anyone want to add any ideas to the request ?
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08-11-2010, 12:04 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
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90 votes.
Well, I think we can make that a hundred easy until 4.0 arrives. Goes to show how important this is to a lot of people.
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08-13-2010, 05:13 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
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Bumped. 94 votes.
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08-19-2010, 04:32 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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102 votes.
Bumped.
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08-20-2010, 02:05 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 82
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keep it up!
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08-20-2010, 07:59 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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107 people voted for this. Thanks ladies and gentlemen.
If you haven't, take a look at this. It's a fundamental problem with Reapers automation feature set, and it requires a simple bunch of things. It's by no means an "Area Selection"-kind of calibre when it comes to implementation.
This is a bunch of modifiers and simple speedups for selecting checkboxes in the envelope window.
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01-29-2011, 05:10 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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What I'd really like to see is Global Record like in Ableton.
You press ONE button and it records as automation everything you do. It takes milliseconds from thinking, 'hey I'd like to a little automation here', to having it done.
No envelopes to arm, no exhaustive parameter menus to troll through, no modes to select.
It really doesn't get any easier...
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Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
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01-30-2011, 05:02 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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That's actually possible, though perhaps you already know this one.
In the preferences/envelopes section there's a switch that says everything you touch if a writing mode is active on a track, get armed and recorded.
I have my automation modes on keyboard shortcuts. Reaper also has global overrides, which let you set Latch to the entire project for example. You can turn the global override off and all tracks go to the automation mode they had before. Probably the easiest way. And there's a button for it on the transport as well.
So it requires on preference option, which I always keep on right now, since Reaper has only the envelope window checkboxes as an alternative for arming stuff.
This is an elevated request already, so something much more useful will be coming, though perhaps not right away for the first v4. They might do all the automation stuff in one go, which I'd certainly welcome.
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01-31-2011, 08:08 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
That's actually possible, though perhaps you already know this one.
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Actually I didn't know that, you just made my day!
I just made a FR to toggle automation override modes so this could be done with a single action/button.
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01-15-2012, 10:29 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Updated a few small things about the request.
Will next add some ideas on where plugins could be "activated" in addition to the ideas already presented.
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03-20-2012, 12:58 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Update on March 20th 2012
The post below was added at the top of the request. A simple "Please do this", which I hope helps in pushing this in the right direction.
Fast activation of all parameters of a plugin, track and sends for automation- Envelope window
A checkbox per section that activates and arms the track envelopes, sends, the parameters of a plugin and all parameters of all plugins on the track.
Click and drag method used in the track manager for quicker arming of a selected few parameters.
Shift+click for fast range activation.
- MCP
Modifier+click on insert slot and send slot.
Context menu commands to activate and arm, clear and remove all envelopes.
- Automation panel buttons for selected track and global control
This of course points to the Modern Automation Recording request, in which this panel is shows(horizontal version).
No envelopes showing up(show by default though)
GUI access to a particular envelope being shown on the track itself
Protools-style. It has envelope lanes too you know, but if I want to see the send envelope on all tracks that have that particualar send, it's just not practical to do in Reaper. In Protools it's literally two clicks. One to access a dropdown menu, and another to pick which envelope to show on all tracks(ALT+click on the dropdown activator, without modifier it shows the envelope for one track).
That way, and with area selection, I can select, erase, copy and paste the same envelope across many tracks, or check the volume on all track(possible but layout-destroyingly fucked up right now), or inspect the pre-fx-volume envelope on all tracks.
It was pretty sobering when I compared what I could do with Protools in this regard, compared to how slow and clumsy Reaper allowed me access to envelopes, whether that's activation, automation or just plain showing them to me without cluttering the screen with endless lanes, wasting space and sending me on merry searches.
Multi-track editing of the same envelope type (filter frequency of an EQ for example)is not practical with the current method. But just showing the envelope on the current track is. Protools has the more practical UI methods here. Users won't do a lot of things in Reaper because they're not practical to do, but they still want to do them.
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12-10-2012, 10:48 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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This request is part of the Automation trinity of requests, compromised of the modern automation request, vca/trim request and this one. Look at the links in my sig for the links.
I'm posting now to ask for ideas.
How would you like to activate parameters for automation ?
Would you prefer to do it in the project bay, where it may be easier to catch all of the same plugins in one fell swoop ?
Or do you simply want to have the choice of just recording stuff you change in Latch mode for example, but you don't want the envelopes to show up as soon as you touch anything?
This is all stuff we cannot do yet. And we want to Cockos to know what we want.
So let's hear it. How do you want to START working with envelopes/automation ? That's what this request is all about.
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06-12-2014, 02:37 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Posts: 11,817
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I'm quite certain some relief in this part of Reaper will be coming for v5, as it's been stated that they're most likely making internal changes for the better. Maybe it has to do with automation as well.
Does anyone have ideas for how to activate/deactivate parameters for use in automation recording ? Let's hear them here.
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