Notation Editor - version 5 discussion

[cubic13]

Glad to see that the notation editor is still planned and evidently ready to be tested ! So, keep on the great work...

Now, the only thing that I will truely miss from my 'Cubase' days is the 'Retrospective record' feature (OT, I know, but still...)

[Lazarus]

Cool, would love to test it too!

[reddiesel41264]

When and where can we suggest features?

[LCipher]

Originally Posted by schwa

Just to provide a little more detail, the notation editor will be a MIDI editor view just like the piano roll or event list.

outstanding! sounds like a good plan

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by schwa

we anticipate supporting MusicXML import and export.

Hallelujah!

[keys]

Great news. Thanks very much!

[benf]

Originally Posted by reddiesel41264

When and where can we suggest features?

Let's wait to be testing it before suggesting features.

[pbognar]

This is great news, and will bring Reaper to a new level.

Hope it handles triplets ;-)

[Sibben]

Oh no, the groove tool teasing thing. Opening old wounds. In a fleeting glimpse we saw it was beautiful and then it was taken away from us.

[Zblogny]

Originally Posted by cubic13

Now, the only thing that I will truely miss from my 'Cubase' days is the 'Retrospective record' feature (OT, I know, but still...)

Tiens, moi aussi !
My workaround : when I'm in an improvising mood, I use Cantabile Solo with its amazing autorecord features, then I import my midi files in Reaper for editing.

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

Originally Posted by pcartwright

Interesting. Will the metadata be available to extensions, scripts or JS effects?

Please make this thing as open/extensible as possible. Any details on that?

[MCCY]

Great news. I'd like to test it too :-)

[hve]

I really can't wait for this feature, I bought Cubase 8 pro for this a few months ago and just can't get my mind on the software, I so much prefer Reaper, it's better easier and more productive. Look forward to it,

cheers,

Hans
www.hansvaneven.net

[kerryg]

I'd be happy to test it, I make part of my income from commercial scoring/arranging so it's of great interest to me to see it be its best.

[endorka]

Please add me to the list of possible testers. I've started studying counterpoint, and would like to apply the study to my projects in Reaper as I compose them. I think the notation editor will be far more intuitive for this than the piano roll.

Jennifer

[reddiesel41264]

I haven't seen anything about a list of testers, I assume that testing will be done through the normal pre-release route.

[ed209]

Something I miss in most notation programs is ripple editing. When transcribing melodies it's often convenient to first get the pitch right, then set the note values on all notes after you set all pitches. I haven't found this function in other notation programs - have I missed something obvious, or is it something that others may find useful if implemented?

[michael diemer]

I'm not understanding what you mean here. Ripple editing? Is that something done in PRV view? I only use staff view (in Sonar, that is - I'm anxiously awaiting the new notation view in Reaper so I can decide whether to buy it). Could you explain more what you mean by ripple editing?

[ed209]

Originally Posted by michael diemer

I'm not understanding what you mean here. Ripple editing?

The ability to edit the note length of a note making the rest of the score (to the right) move accordingly.

This would be a potential disaster when working on a larger piece, but for quickly transcribing a melody it's very handy (at least I and several others I know do it like that). So the function would reflect the already implemented feature in Reaper, ie you can turn off and on ripple editing in the arrangement view as of now.

[michael diemer]

Originally Posted by ed209

The ability to edit the note length of a note making the rest of the score (to the right) move accordingly.

This would be a potential disaster when working on a larger piece, but for quickly transcribing a melody it's very handy (at least I and several others I know do it like that). So the function would reflect the already implemented feature in Reaper, ie you can turn off and on ripple editing in the arrangement view as of now.

I see. The way I see staff or notation view, it wouldn't matter exactly how long the note is. It would be represented in musical notation to the nearest note value. So, it could be an eighth note, but the actual length doesn't necessarily have to equal a specific mathematical value (60 in Sonar). It could be 65 or 56, but still be an eighth note. This reflects the fact that musicians don't play all eighth notes the same, they linger on some, play others short, etc. but the notation stays neat and proper.

The PRV of course does reflect the actual length of the notes, which is why it is so useful in humanizing. you need both, the ability to humanize and also accurately represent the music with notation. In Sonar, you can adjust the actual note value in staff view by right clicking on the note. so you could increase an eighth note's value in actual time, while keeping it an eighth note notationally. You just right-click on the note and a little box comes up where you can do this, as well as change the pitch, start time, and maybe some other things.

[ed209]

Originally Posted by michael diemer

I see.

Well, no. And really, my bad. I just wanted to respond to what you mentioned because it's really important IMO that the developers get that part right. So, again, not what I was talking about but very important.

What was I talking about? Not important. I'll see if in the future I can make a demo and a request.

[hamish]

Originally Posted by ed209

Well, no. And really, my bad.

Not at all your bad. I knew what you were talking about.

I think this thread should contain ideas about the Notation Editor by people who are long term, paid up REAPER users. I'm not being territorial, it's just that we do understand the principles of operation better than people who are just window shopping.

Originally Posted by ed209

Not important. I'll see if in the future I can make a demo and a request.

I'll look out for it.

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by ed209

The ability to edit the note length of a note making the rest of the score (to the right) move accordingly.

This would be a potential disaster when working on a larger piece, but for quickly transcribing a melody it's very handy (at least I and several others I know do it like that). So the function would reflect the already implemented feature in Reaper, ie you can turn off and on ripple editing in the arrangement view as of now.

Yes please...both for score editor and MIDI editor

FR is already here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3306

Here's how it could look in MIDI editor:

[gofer]

It looks easy enough with quantized material and lengthen/shortening snapped note ends, but it would probably need to be smart enough to only shift following material by full beats/bars (keeping offsets to the grid) while still allowing to lengthen/shorten the note by non-quantized amounts.

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by gofer

It looks easy enough with quantized material and lengthen/shortening snapped note ends, but it would probably need to be smart enough to only shift following material by full beats/bars (keeping offsets to the grid) while still allowing to lengthen/shorten the note by non-quantized amounts.

First step in implementing this would be to move everything that is in front of note's start whose length is being edited.
Some kind of preference for overlapping range would help for sure too. The feature definitely needs more thinking...

It's not straight forward, yes...but it's possible and would help a lot of people doing extensive MIDI. I thought about implementing this from SWS, but unfortunately we can't know about all the editable items in MIDI editor and we have no access to mouse modifiers in this case (and this feature only really makes sense if it propagates in everything that affects note length - both mouse modifers and actions, pretty much the same as ripple editing works in arrange right now)

[michael diemer]

Originally Posted by hamish

Not at all your bad. I knew what you were talking about.

I think this thread should contain ideas about the Notation Editor by people who are long term, paid up REAPER users. I'm not being territorial, it's just that we do understand the principles of operation better than people who are just window shopping.



I'll look out for it.

Sorry, didn't realize I was trespassing. I'll stay out.

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by michael diemer

I'll stay out.

Please don't.
Your post may have touched a different subject than the one you quoted but it's also quite relevant in the notation editor discussion

I think that devs really need to hear as much ideas as they can on this one. So lets help them!

[peter5992]

Originally Posted by kerryg

At the music colleges here (Vancouver Community College, Cap U, Douglas College, Selkirk), I believe you are required to either have existing piano skills or take a year of Class Piano in your first year. I know I took either Class Piano or private piano lessons at all three of the institutions I studied at. I seem to recall it was either compulsory or strongly recommended.

The private schools like Harbourside or PAVI or AI all teach MIDI in their curriculum (not as a separate course, but it comes along with your studies in electronic music or DAW).

That is my experience as well - I attended conservatory of music from 1983 through 1988, everyone (aspiring musicians, teachers, composers) had to take piano classes, the only exception being classical guitarist (the long fingernails make playing the keys tricky). Harmony, counterpoint, analysis, all that is very difficult if not impossible to grasp without access if you can't hear it and play it on an instrument that is capable of producing multiples notes at once. This was back in the days before there was even midi (certainly before it was as popular as it is today), it may have changed since, though I imagine probably not drastically.

Back to the original topic, music notation is a highly complicated subject, for those that are interested you may want to read or listen to some of Daniel Spreadbury's blogs or podcasts. He used to be the senior product manager at Sibelius until he and his London team were sacked by Avid a couple of years ago; he's now working on a competing product at Steinberg. Just read his post on beams, it's nerdy but fascinating at the same time. And by the way, even among engravers (= people who engrave music for a living) often there is no consensus as to what is the "correct" way to notate something.

http://blog.steinberg.net/

But that said this is all way above and beyond what Justin and his guys are trying to achieve, if I understand it correctly. But even a very simple notation editor is a great benefit for a lot of Reaper users, whether you had any formal music training or not, and regardless of the style of music you're into, I think it is fantastic that they are working on it. I'd be happy to contribute but I know nothing about programming and I'm pretty swamped already.

[peter5992]

Originally Posted by Neon_Knight

What's your source for this? I only ask because in my experience this simply isn't true. I've met a lot of film composers and spoken to a lot of them about this - in almost all cases the short score is composed at the piano (pen+paper) and passed to the orchestrator. The orchestration is then passed to the person who makes the mockups. Certainly in my own work and that of my colleagues this is how it's done. Some people compose into a sequencer and pass the MIDI to a "Midi orchestrator" but I've found this to be quite rare. The only person who I know does this is Hans Zimmer and he can do it because he has over 80 henchmen surrounding him who can do all the hard work fixing his mockups and making them playable. His methods are certainly not standard. In my experience, at least. If you have different testimony I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

A bit OT, but the only film composer I know that still exclusively works with pencil and paper is John Williams, almost everyone else has a computer and a sequencing program to create at least a basic mockup (and possibly several assistants to work out ideas, depending on how successful they are financially and how big of a team they can afford to hire and keep around). Once the cues are approved and depending on the budget the midi mockup then goes to an orchestrator who turns it into a written score, to be performed by live musicians and recorded live. Later on it's all mixed together with whatever stems come out of the computer (synths or percussion etc). Still later everything is mixed together with dialogue and sound effects, mastered, printed, and so on.

Hans Zimmer is a bit of an odd duck in that technologically he likes to push the envelope, for example he's got one guy whose sole job is to program interfaces to control his computers (which are all windows based, by the way, with one exception I believe for the Pro Tools rig he uses to print everything to). He's been that way for decades, having a pop / synth background rather than a classical background. He likes his toys and has invested heavily in them over many years. Also, his Remote Control company is more of a film music factory which cranks out a lot of music and sound.

[Neon_Knight]

You're right, this is off topic. But everybody in this thread has completely missed my original point (all those months ago). Let me clarify. Yes, of course mockups are made on the computer. It's impossible to make a mockup with pen and paper. Yes of course arranging and orchestration is done on the computer - software like Sibelius makes this much easier and more efficient than pen and paper. I'm not talking about mocking up, I'm not talking about arranging, I'm not talking about orchestrating, I'm not talking about sequencing. I'm talking about composing. I'm talking about getting an idea from inside your head and placing it outside of your head. If you are trying to tell me that Dario Marionelli composes his character themes by sitting infront of Logic Pro and clicking and dragging little MIDI blocks into a piano roll, or that Elliot Goldenthal composes his four-part counterpoint or Don Davis composes his quasi-serialist atonal orchestral textures by jamming into Digital Performer with a MIDI keyboard then you are, well, just plain wrong. This is carefully constructed music by highly trained classical composers - I'm sorry but they do not compose this way.

You've made the mistake that many others in this thread have done of assuming that because a computer is involved at the mockup stage that the composer therefore composed the music that way too. You have no reason to assume this and no evidence that the composer hasn't already produced reams and reams of notes and sketches before even getting to that stage. I do know because I have seen some of them (not that that is much use to you, but it explains why I'm so certain of myself here). Of course not all composers work this way, but many, many do.

To bring this back on topic. Score view will be more useful to composers who like to compose using notation - than composers who don't. Those composers who don't compose using notation have no use for a score view. Ergo, it is more important that notation translates into MIDI well, than the other way around. Composing into MIDI and then expecting pro-standard translation into notation is unrealistic and impractical. Not even Sibelius can do this very well, and it wouldn't be much benefit to anyone even if it did. Composing a dynamic or a hairpin into notation and expecting a CC11 change, however, is realistic and would be far more beneficial to those of us who would use notation view. That's all I really wanted to say, really.

[aMUSEd]

Originally Posted by axel_ef

Download SMuFL-compliant music fonts

How do you install them (on Mac)?

[Gromit]

Is there any estimated time of arrival for the notation editor?

I only ask because when I purchased Reaper (at version 3.something) I was told that there would be notation in version 4, and it never arrived. I'm not sure I want to pay again and wait another several years for what (to me) is an important feature.

[pcartwright]

Originally Posted by Gromit

Is there any estimated time of arrival for the notation editor?

I only ask because when I purchased Reaper (at version 3.something) I was told that there would be notation in version 4, and it never arrived. I'm not sure I want to pay again and wait another several years for what (to me) is an important feature.

Who told you that?

The only thing close to official was a comment by schwa saying notation would come in either 5.1 or 5.2.

[Gromit]

Originally Posted by pcartwright

Who told you that?

The only thing close to official was a comment by schwa saying notation would come in either 5.1 or 5.2.

I can't remember who told me (it was a very long time ago, and I've had a sleep since then). It might have been on the forums, or in an email to the devs.

Thanks for the info.

[schwa]

The notation feature will probably be in 5.1 for testing. We want to let version 5 settle down a bit first.

We try to be careful not to ever promise features in any particular version, so if you feel notation was promised in v4 (or ever), that's either a misunderstanding or an error on our part.

[Gromit]

Originally Posted by schwa

The notation feature will probably be in 5.1 for testing. We want to let version 5 settle down a bit first.

We try to be careful not to ever promise features in any particular version, so if you feel notation was promised in v4 (or ever), that's either a misunderstanding or an error on our part.

Thanks.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by schwa

The notation feature will probably be in 5.1 for testing. We want to let version 5 settle down a bit first.

Cool. I'm eager to see what you've been up to

[hve]

I really really hope that it will come in 5.1 , for now I have tested a few times Cubase 8 but I can't use it , the scoring and interface is great but the audio side is really not easy and for now besides Samplitude Pro (which I'm going to try now) there isn't really an alternative for good scoring and notation on PC inside a good DAW (I heard maybe Studio One will have integration of Notion in the future, not sure this is right). Sure I can work without notation, but when you always worked with scores it's so much easier to compose with a score, it's like a pen and paper for writers, so please please add this soon

cheers,

Hans

[pbognar]

There is always a little spring in my step when there is a forum update in my inbox indicating that this is going to be a reality.

[Reaktor:[Dave]]

@schwa: I remember reading that the notation feature will be done entirely with LUA and so we have access to its source code. Is that still true?