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Old 04-23-2017, 07:50 AM   #1
Wizz
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Default Does direct-line guitar sound bad?

Does my guitar tone sound bad becuase it's direct-line?

I'm recording an electric through a BOSS GT-8 multieffect unit (has virtual amps) and the direct line into my Steinberg UR22 interface. My guitar tone always seems to sound dark and muddy.

Example: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i5g9f2c6u9k9ega/example.mp3

It sounds bad right? Or is it just me?

I'm sure other people have struggled with the same issue. How is this solved? Am I just using poor settings on my Boss GT-8?
Is this fixed in the mix with EQ?
Or should I get an amp and put a mic infront of it?

EDIT: I have the output on the GT-8 set to LINE/PHONES (speaker sim is on) and going to a HI-Z instrument input on the UR22

Last edited by Wizz; 04-23-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:01 AM   #2
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Make sure you are matching your output to input.

Is the output you're using on the effects unit designed to go into a line level input or a guitar amp?

Are you plugging that in to a line level, mic level, or high impedance instrument input on your interface?
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:09 AM   #3
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How do you have the output set? Pg 14 in the manual...

Quote:
To derive the maximum performance from the GT-8, be sure to make the correct setting for OUTPUT SELECT, the one that’s most suitable for your setup.

* The speaker simulator (p. 27) is enabled only when OUTPUT SELECT is set to LINE/PHONES.

JC-120 Use this setting when connecting to Roland’s JC-120 guitar amp.

SMALL AMP Use this setting when connecting to small guitar amp.

COMBO AMP Use this setting when connecting to the guitar input of a combo amp other than the JC-120 guitar amp (where the amp and speaker or speakers are combined in a single unit).

* Depending on you guitar amp, you may be able to obtain good results with the “JC-120” setting.

STACK AMP
Use this setting when connecting to the guitar input of a stack-type guitar amp (where the amp and speaker or speakers are separated).

JC-120 Return Use this setting when connecting to RETURN of a JC-120.

COMBO Return Use this setting when connecting to RETURN with a combo amp.

STACK Return
Use this setting when connecting to RETURN of a stack amp or rack mounted power amp.

LINE/PHONES
Use this setting when using headphones or when connecting to a multi-track recorder for recording.

* When using the speaker simulator, set this to LINE/PHONES.

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GT-8_OM.pdf
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:30 AM   #4
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I've heard much worse. I think it's actually a pretty useable tone.

A little EQ can help a lot so experiment a bit.

A few suggestions:

Maybe try cutting a couple db in the 450-500Hz range with a bandwidth (Q) of around 0.6. That's a good place to look for "mud".

Then try adding a hi shelf- couple db @1500 Hz (ish).

Low shelf? Maybe 1-2 dB cut around 200 Hz?

And I'm not sure if it's just my tinnitus, but I find a DEEP, narrow cut at 2KHz to be very helpful.

Last edited by dug dog; 04-23-2017 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Make sure you are matching your output to input.

Is the output you're using on the effects unit designed to go into a line level input or a guitar amp?

Are you plugging that in to a line level, mic level, or high impedance instrument input on your interface?
Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
How do you have the output set? Pg 14 in the manual...
My output is set to LINE/PHONES and it goes to a HI-Z instrument input on the interface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dug dog
I've heard much worse. I think it's actually a pretty useable tone.
Why thanks. My main question is though, do you think it would sound better if I got an amp and mic'd it with a SM57? I see a lot of pros record with mics infornt of the amps. Do mics+amps generally sound better than emulators? Like.. what's the consensus on this. I have no idea about this stuff..
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizz View Post
My output is set to LINE/PHONES and it goes to a HI-Z instrument input on the interface.
It needs to go into a line input of your interface, not an instrument input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizz View Post
Why thanks. My main question is though, do you think it would sound better if I got an amp and mic'd it with a SM57? I see a lot of pros record with mics infornt of the amps. Do mics+amps generally sound better than emulators? Like.. what's the consensus on this. I have no idea about this stuff..
There is no consensus
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:40 AM   #7
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There is no consensus
Truth.
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Old 04-23-2017, 01:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
It needs to go into a line input of your interface, not an instrument input.
Wait what?
Maybe I'm confusing the terms. I have an UR22.
http://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/...&itok=0jQHFkdF
there...
It has a line output on the back. And on the front it says MIC/LINE for both inputs. I guess that's the right one, yea? Should I have HI-Z turned off?
(I thought that was an instrument input, what's the difference?)
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Wizz View Post
Wait what?
Maybe I'm confusing the terms. I have an UR22.
http://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/...&itok=0jQHFkdF
there...
It has a line output on the back. And on the front it says MIC/LINE for both inputs. I guess that's the right one, yea? Should I have HI-Z turned off?
(I thought that was an instrument input, what's the difference?)
Yeah, you need to have a jack plugged in (not XLR) and turn Hi-Z off.

Here's a summary of the differences: http://www.creativeedgemusic.com/201...s-preamps.html
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:50 PM   #10
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Yeah, you need to have a jack plugged in (not XLR) and turn Hi-Z off.
There probably won't be any really difference in tone either way. With Hi-Z on, it'll probably be louder, and of course if that causes it to clip it will make a difference, but otherwise it shouldn't make any noticeable difference in frequency response.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:38 AM   #11
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My main question is though, do you think it would sound better if I got an amp and mic'd it with a SM57? I see a lot of pros record with mics infornt of the amps. Do mics+amps generally sound better than emulators?
That will depend on the amplifier and room acoustics. And of course, it depends on the kind of sound you're looking for and/or what kind of sound you prefer.

If you love the sound of your amp/cabinet, it's probably going to be hard to exactly-duplicate that sound.* On the other hand, if you can't afford the amp you really want you can probably afford a reasonable simulation. (And, you can afford 20 or more different simulations.)

It's also pretty common for pros to record a mic'd track and a direct track then apply simulation in post production, and either choose one or the other or to blend the two.

If you're listening to a commercial release, I'm pretty sure nobody can tell if a mic'd amp or simulation, especially when the guitar is mixed with the rest of the band. The original guitar player might be able to tell, but probably nobody else can.

I did read about one case where a guitar player insisted on using his amp, but the engineer also recorded direct. In the end, the engineer threw-out the mic'd amp track and the guitar player never knew.




* But because of "the way our ears work", and the fact that you probably don't have "perfect monitors", the mic'd/recorded sound will be different from the live sound.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 04-24-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dug dog View Post
Truth.
You should just ask me.

An amp will always sound better than an emulated amp.

There. Now you know.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:11 AM   #13
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You should just ask me.

An amp will always sound better than an emulated amp.

There. Now you know.
Depends who's mic'ing it up
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:36 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the info!

Last question(s):
If I bring my amp in and put an SM57 infront of it, how loud do I have to crank the amp to get a good sound? I live in an apartment building. How is this usually done?

Also, if I'm using a dynamic microphone (sm57), will the room still influence the sound a lot? My room sounds like crap.
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Wizz View Post
Thanks for all the info!

Last question(s):
If I bring my amp in and put an SM57 infront of it, how loud do I have to crank the amp to get a good sound? I live in an apartment building. How is this usually done?
Sorry to sound facetious, but you have to crank it until it sounds good.

If you're recording heavy guitar, that usually means pretty damn loud.

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Also, if I'm using a dynamic microphone (sm57), will the room still influence the sound a lot? My room sounds like crap.
A '57 has good rejection, but it still depends how far away from the speaker you have it. If it's right up against the grill you should be okay.
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Wizz View Post
Thanks for all the info!

Last question(s):
If I bring my amp in and put an SM57 infront of it, how loud do I have to crank the amp to get a good sound? I live in an apartment building. How is this usually done?
Good is subjective, completely subjective. What matters even more that as a guitarist, what you think sounds good all by itself, may very well be not what sounds good in the context of whichever mix it is going to live in. To expand on that there are a couple of scenarios...

1) You (or whoever) are a guitar hero, you tone is your name and brand. In this scenario, everything, I mean everything in the mix is sculpted in one form or another around that guitar tone. Every element in the mix takes a back seat priority wise because anyone listening is only there to hear your tone and your mad chops.

2) You are making music and writing songs, and playing guitar as the guitarist and/or other instruments (or your band mates are). In this scenario everything tends to take a back seat to the song as a whole and even the guitar tone becomes relative to how it serves the song as a whole - you do whatever it takes to make the song sound good. This means that it is possible the guitar sounds fantastic in the mix, but potentially not so when soloed.

So make your initial decisions based on the above - yes there are some exceptions based on genre but at the end of the day, the song as a whole needs to carry the weight or the guitar player is the only reason they are listening (roughly).

Quote:
Also, if I'm using a dynamic microphone (sm57), will the room still influence the sound a lot? My room sounds like crap.
If the room truly sounds bad, the reality of what occurs is that you have to mic defensively (to avoid the room) than mic creatively. If a terrible sounding room you are left with mostly close micing. Don't kill yourself thinking the amp needs to be 130 dB to record well, no matter who I offend by saying so, that's a bit of myth meaning it's a silly reason to not record.

I'd suggest just record the sh*t out of it as many ways as you can, make notes and make it work for you, there is a good recorded guitar tone there somewhere.
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:49 PM   #17
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Don't kill yourself thinking the amp needs to be 130 dB to record well, no matter who I offend by saying so, that's a bit of myth meaning it's a silly reason to not record.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is a silly reason not to record, but you're not going to get earth-shaking power chords unless the whole cab is moving. Totally depends what you're going for, and the signal chain setup (e.g. pedals vs. overdriving the amp etc...).
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:53 PM   #18
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but you're not going to get earth-shaking power chords unless the whole cab is moving. Totally depends what you're going for, and the signal chain setup (e.g. pedals vs. overdriving the amp etc...).
Let's just disagree... The biggest sound I've had (nearly) was from half-ass recording some solid state marshall combo with a 57 and a 10" speaker in a mobile home living room at speaking level. IMHO, there are far too many ways to mic an amp and it sound huge. I've heard more thin sounding recordings from loud amps than thick ones from well-mic'd lower volume amps. YMMV and personal subjectivity I suppose so certainly don't mind if our ideas clash on this.

Granted, my idea of loud is pretty damn loud and my idea of not loud is louder than most think but still, it turned out to be mostly myth in my little world.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:08 PM   #19
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It's probably a combination of too much distortion and too much bass. Probably too much bass coming out and almost definitely too much bass going in.

All those djent dudes pretty much run into a Tube Screamer and then some high gain tube amp. The Peavey 5150 seems popular, but both Boogies and Marshalls can work as well, and the TS is kind of the important part because it tend to boost the upper mids and helps focus the crunch without getting all mushy or farty from too much bass going into the distortion section. It also compresses the input a bit to help get more conststent crunch out of the amp.

So, like, find the closest to these that Bias has, and turn the knobs until it sounds good. Then probably dial back the preamp gain a bit to a lot and probably cut some low end at mix time.

Unless it's actually really loud at your ears, it may not be super satisfying to actually play with that tone. You'll generally want more distortion. The cool thing about sims is that you can have that extra distortion during tracking and then turn it down after.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:11 PM   #20
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Let's just disagree...
Sure!

I wasn't talking about "huge" sounds though, but rather sounds that "shake". I've never heard a good palm-muted chug from a cab that wasn't shaking. That's not the same as "big", "huge", or "epic" though - all of which are better obtained by mic'ing further away. I'm talking about full-on proximity effect and rattling wood of the cabinet.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:34 PM   #21
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Sure!

I wasn't talking about "huge" sounds though, but rather sounds that "shake". I've never heard a good palm-muted chug from a cab that wasn't shaking. That's not the same as "big", "huge", or "epic" though - all of which are better obtained by mic'ing further away. I'm talking about full-on proximity effect and rattling wood of the cabinet.
I am a guy that is fully committed to volume being an acceptable substitute for talent, amps that go to 11.5, and I get what you're saying, but I don't agree here. You're only going to get so much sound through that mic. Even a tough one like an SM57 has it's limits when it comes to SPL. When you're running the amp at 11, you either have to move the mic away, which introduces the room, or turn down the amp, which denies you the awesome tones you're looking for.

You can get all kinds of lovely crunch with smaller amps. A JCM800 needs some space, but for an amp that big that by definition means loud. But you can take a Mesa Boogie Mark 5 at 10w, drive the shit out of it, and it will crunch all day long.

The mic don't know or care if the amp is shaking. All the mic knows is the SPL being presented at the diaphragm. Smaller amps give you the means to get the drive you want out of the speaker cone without squashing the mic.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:49 PM   #22
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The mic don't know or care if the amp is shaking.
Well, I can't agree with that. Once the cabinet is resonating the sound is changed dramatically.

I'm not saying it has to be full blast, just that it has to be at a level that the guy downstairs will definitely hear if you're in an apartment block.
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:33 PM   #23
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Well, I can't agree with that. Once the cabinet is resonating the sound is changed dramatically.
As a very impromptu test I recorded about 4 seconds of one of my amps, first couple seconds is just above human speaking volume, the second enough to shake the windows in my house. Not much difference tbh. It's not that I disagree terribly, there is a 'tiny' difference (but tiny enough it could have been inconsistency in my playing), it just doesn't seem to make much real difference again in *my little world* so horses for courses territory.

I'm happy to share it albeit it isn't in any way supposed to be a good tone or a shaking one, it was literally grab my 100.00 ribbon sitting on one of my amps and aiming it about 12" back, plug in, hit record - didn't even tune the guitar. It's a plexi-style handmade head and a Marshal JCM900/1936 2x12 which should be sufficient for the most part anyway.
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:42 PM   #24
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As a very impromptu test I recorded about 4 seconds of one of my amps, first couple seconds is just above human speaking volume, the second enough to shake the windows in my house. Really very little difference tbh. It's not that I disagree with you terribly, there is a 'tiny' difference, it just doesn't seem to make much real difference again in *my little world* so horses for courses territory.

I'm happy to share it albeit it isn't in anyway supposed to be a good tone or a shaking one, it was literally grab my 100.00 ribbon sitting on one of my amps and aiming it about 12" back, plug in, hit record - didn't even tune the guitar. It's a plexi-style handmade head and a Marshal JCM900/1936 2x12 which should be sufficient for the most part anyway.
No need to share it, I don't think you made it up!

I shall have to do more testing of my own. One thing you definitely can't get when turned down is that extra high-end of the snares rattling
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Old 04-24-2017, 04:48 PM   #25
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One thing you definitely can't get when turned down is that extra high-end of the snares rattling
God, the memories that brings back! Who knows though, a slightly different test might yield different results and I was in a hurry so I'm not hard lined for either.
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:03 PM   #26
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No need to share it, I don't think you made it up!

I shall have to do more testing of my own. One thing you definitely can't get when turned down is that extra high-end of the snares rattling
I'm constantly trying to figure out how to get the rattle of the furnace shaking out of our rehearsal recordings.
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:03 PM   #27
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I'm constantly trying to figure out how to get the rattle of the furnace shaking out of our rehearsal recordings.
Charge for that shit, furnaces as instruments are farking expensive.
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