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Old 09-02-2015, 11:01 PM   #1
dream_of_the_night
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Default Reaper 5: no midi improvements?

Hi there!

Just downloaded and installed reaper 5 and I'm a little disappointed. Maybe I'm missing something but I cannot see any improvement in midi writing and editing.
For example: there are still bezier curves, that are hateful. I'd expect parabolic curves to be added in reaper 5. I searched on forum and there are lots of threads asking for midi improvements.
Looking forward reaper 6 for that...
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Old 09-03-2015, 02:39 AM   #2
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Why should it take Reaper 6 for that?
Perhaps those features will eventually appear in updates.
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Old 09-03-2015, 06:40 AM   #3
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To be honest, some things have happened :

Spp is now implemented according to the midi specification and can be turned off.
Jitter has been decreased from the second bar on (the first bar will be addressed in a later update)
Some optimisation has been done on the editor.
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:23 AM   #4
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VST3i is now supported, albeit with some issues, which are being resolved.
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:26 AM   #5
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Has nothing to do with midi ....
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:13 AM   #6
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Well, release velocity can now be edited, too. Also, we can now see tempo/time signature markers in the MIDI editor as well.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink99 View Post
Has nothing to do with midi ....
You had best tell Steinberg that VST3 has nothing to do with MIDI.
They are under the impression that VST3 supports multiple MIDI inputs/outputs.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth View Post
You had best tell Steinberg that VST3 has nothing to do with MIDI.
They are under the impression that VST3 supports multiple MIDI inputs/outputs.
We are in a reaper forum ....
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #9
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learnable input fx parameters is huge for conditioning and pre-editing midi
people aren't realizing how powerful this is
spend less time editing and more time recording it right to begin with

immediately after reaper 4 was released there was a whole slew of awesome midi updates so keep your shirts on
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post

learnable input fx parameters is huge for conditioning and pre-editing midi
people aren't realizing how powerful this is
can you explain this what exactly does
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
learnable input fx parameters is huge for conditioning and pre-editing midi
people aren't realizing how powerful this is
spend less time editing and more time recording it right to begin with
Is no midi, is automation/UI/mostly audio

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
immediately after reaper 4 was released there was a whole slew of awesome midi updates so keep your shirts on
Agree, except for the word "awesome", replace with "basic"

You are not using midi, only itb stuff, are you?

Last edited by Mink99; 09-03-2015 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:46 AM   #12
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[joke]
How are you preconditioning and pre-editing midi people ?


[/joke]
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:02 AM   #13
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i use midi in a capacity that probably dwarfs the majority of daw users in general. and yes, learnable input fx does have a lot of impact on midi recording for those of us familiar with midi vst and js fx

now, if only we had an option for input fx to influence track receives in addition to track input...
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:18 AM   #14
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There are one or two things that are nice to have in midi editer, but that's it the rest is OK.

The Daw is all about midi every thing else is secondary.

Reason for that statement is because you can do your audio recording in just about any thing and a lot more producers are taking this rule of thought

To super impose you need a great midi editer, and seeing what reaper has done with this Daw over a few years it seems the midi has not followed on with it, I do believe reapers midi work can surpass even some of the most popular Daws.

I just find I can't flow when I'm using reapers midi, or find my self trying to hard, but still can get some good results.

I to am hoping for some big change in the midi editer.
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
i use midi in a capacity that probably dwarfs the majority of daw users in general. and yes, learnable input fx does have a lot of impact on midi recording for those of us familiar with midi vst and js fx
Ok, now I feel preconditioned
.
.
.
.
.

As I said, only itb ...
.
.
.
.
Now I feel more pre-edited

Last edited by Mink99; 09-03-2015 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 09-03-2015, 12:16 PM   #16
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whether you are using internal fx or outputting to external midi hardware makes no difference if you're recording midi through input fx

keep editing, your attitude needs it
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Old 09-03-2015, 12:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaburst View Post
I just find I can't flow when I'm using reapers midi, or find my self trying to hard, but still can get some good results.

I to am hoping for some big change in the midi editer.
Absolutely the midi editor needs attention.
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Old 09-03-2015, 12:24 PM   #18
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Midi, is that when you can't get your music to max?
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:15 PM   #19
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Still as bad as ever, with terrible no-flow design. My two cents on top r4 license.
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:36 PM   #20
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I don't find Reaper's MIDI to be *that* bad, though coming to it from Logic a few years ago I definitely still miss some of Logic's MIDI ability. I have a free version of Cubase AI as well and its MIDI is very well done and I confess I occasionally have to import Reaper MIDI into it for certain tasks, though I try to avoid that.

Reaper's editor doesn't have too far to go to begin to rival Logic and Cubase (note I said *begin*, so don't kill me with forum-contempt).

I do very little recording, most projects are 95%+ MIDI-based, and it took some time but I've got a heavily customized MIDI editor in Reaper that does very nearly everything I need without undue frustration. So I'd suggest that some here might want to have a close look at the ways it can be customized (really doubt I need to say that to Reaper users, but there it is).

That said, I hope they turn their focus to MIDI improvements before version 6, and I have a feeling they will.
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaburst View Post

The Daw is all about midi every thing else is secondary.

Reason for that statement is because you can do your audio recording in just about any thing and a lot more producers are taking this rule of thought

To super impose you need a great midi editer, and seeing what reaper has done with this Daw over a few years it seems the midi has not followed on with it, I do believe reapers midi work can surpass even some of the most popular Daws.

I just find I can't flow when I'm using reapers midi, or find my self trying to hard, but still can get some good results.

I to am hoping for some big change in the midi editer.
Not sure where you come up with a Digital AUDIO Workstation being all about MIDI, but otherwise I sort of agree.

Certainly I had far better workflow and functionality when I used my Amiga 1200 and Bars n Pipes Pro to sequence MIDI, but it wasn't whole lot of use for audio apart from using MTC to synch with my hard disk recorders and my automated desk's MIDI mutes.

So lets have a little sense of proportion about the progress on MIDI in Reaper.
Initially, MIDI was very much an afterthought.
As far as I know Justin only started using MIDI fairly seriously himself recently, so it is fair to assume that up until that point the true significance of some of our feature requests/whining/etc had not really hit home.

I made the concious decision to persevere with Reapers MIDI and sold all my Amiga kit some time ago and although I STILL struggle to get even 30% of the speed of workflow that I previously had, I am gradually speeding up as I learn a few more of Reapers wrinkles.
And I am not expecting miracles. Steinberg and the other "early adopters" have a huge head start on the newcomers and of course we have a very small team of developers working on Reaper.

Now it may well be that in the end Reaper will never have the MIDI functionality that us old hands became used to as the early sequencers came of age.
At least there are alternatives. I have hung onto Sonar X3, anticipating that I might be forced back to it purely for its MIDI sequencing editors.
Not that THEY are great but they are still better than Reapers as it is now if there is any heavy lifting to do.

So I guess what it all comes down to is that the feature requests are "out there" and we are getting occasional bits of MIDI love already.
Whether or not we as - for want of a better description - MIDI power users decide to stick with Reaper for MIDI work is one issue.
The other issue is whether or not we throw the baby out with the bathwater and don't use Reaper at all.
In the light of all the things Reaper does really well, maybe those of you who are throwing hissy fits about how "crap" Reapers MIDI is ought to check out the alternatives in terms of overall performance and efficiency.

Studio One? Got it. Never use it any more. Way too restrictive.
And as I said earlier, I have Sonar X3 "just in case" but it is Reaper that gets used day in and day out.
So before you wade in on threads like this about what you DONT like about Reaper, its worth taking a few moments to reflect on the ratio of "like" vs "dislike".
One or the other will incline you in one direction or the other.
If it happens to be away from Reaper to another DAW that suits your workflow overall better, well at least you have the solution.
If it is still Reaper for you, how about making the criticisms a little more proactive and positive?

Last edited by ivansc; 09-03-2015 at 03:42 PM. Reason: splegni mitseask
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:51 PM   #22
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Not sure where you come up with a Digital AUDIO Workstation being all about MIDI...
It's obvious to see. The overwhelming majority of modern audio workstation buyers are doing mostly midi based or 90% midi based productions. No matter how many bands and audio tracking studios there are they're dwarfed by the people doing the one man band thing with midi by some insane factor. If you take the midi sequencer out of all of these popular products most of the companies would probably go bankrupt in a few years.

I would personally guess well over 90% of consumers that use daws are using midi and samplers, not hiring musicians. Then take into account that many people hiring studios are doing the same thing, producing with midi and samplers and it all becomes clear. It's not 1969 anymore where everybody has a tape machine.
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:10 PM   #23
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I would personally guess well over 90% of consumers that use daws are using midi and samplers, not hiring musicians. Then take into account that many people hiring studios are doing the same thing, producing with midi and samplers and it all becomes clear. It's not 1969 anymore where everybody has a tape machine.
So true. Though Reaper feels very audio centric in its origin which is unfortunate. Still I don't totally get the whole "Reaper is unusable for midi". I use it for VI programming all the time (not outboard hardware) and I think it works fine. It's just not looking like it's ever going to be anything but average in that regard.
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Old 09-03-2015, 11:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaburst View Post
The Daw is all about midi every thing else is secondary.
The Daw is all about doing musical notation !

The Daw is all about automating stage lighting !!

The Daw is all about producing loop based compositions !!!

The Daw is all about live playing VST instruments !!!!!

The Daw is all about .... whatever !!!!!

Reaper can be used for all of this, but there might be programs for each of these requests that are especially crafted or the appropriate purpose and offer a better workflow for exactly this.

A great plus of Reaper's is it's flexibility end extensibility.

IMHO a unique great feature of Reapers is that tracks are handles identical be they audio, midi or folder tracks.

Finally "DAW" means "Digital Audio Workstation" So AUDIO is the starting point.

Please show the official statistic research that proves that "The overwhelming majority of modern audio workstation buyers are doing mostly midi based or 90% midi based productions". IMHO this is just defining your personal preference as being a rule.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 09-03-2015 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 01:39 AM   #25
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There are many different understandings of what Midi in the area of reaper implementation covers and what is not covered. This might be also called the "midi workflow"

In my understanding "midi" is

... Receiving
... Creating
... Manipulating
... Providing

Essential Midi messages.

Those Midi messages are
Code:
                                                ----- voice messages
                   ---- channel messages -----|
                  |                             ----- mode messages
                  |
MIDI messages ----| 
                  |                                            ---- common messages
                   ----- system messages -----|---- real-time messages
                                                              ( ---- exclusive messages)
Additionally the mackie hui and mcu protocols ....

.................................................. .............

This means, that the vst and vsti, the external or internal devices are not part of the midi workflow, although they may be dependent on it. Providing and receiving is independent of the physical transport, whether it may be plain old midi, USB, rtp or internal routing.

The following statements will not take the individual workflows into account (troll/fanboy : do not need this feature)

.................................................. ......

Receiving midi :

Implementation is good, covers most requirements
Receiving voice messages and system common / system realtime messages is implemented in a feature-complete manner. Some usability flaws, e.g the "praisejustin" button. Also hui / mcp is well received. Handling of physical inputs could be improved.

Creating and manipulating midi messages :

Implementation is sufficient, covers major requirements
The editor needs "some love"
The api's for scripting are missing midi specific hooks (at least on jsfx level)
Filtering and rule-based manipulation of messages are missing
Midi through is missing
Sysex and cc need improved support in the editor

Providing midi

Internal processing

Implementation is very good, covers most of requirements
Routing and forwarding within one track and across tracks is great

External processing

Implementation is weak, suffers from major bugs

Latency compensation is implemented incorrectly
Glitches on start of track
Minor flaws

......................


Facit:

All in all reaper is not in a bad state regarding midi implementation. Of course, it cannot play in the top 5, as this would at least require a major effort in "usability" enhancements. But, as it covers at least the basic requirements, in combination with the outstanding audio engine , this looks ok.

Needless to say, I do not want to see the usual "but cubase can't do it too" or "tell me one daw that can..." We are talking reaper.

Last edited by Mink99; 09-04-2015 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
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As soon as you have a keyboard attached and are using it on a vsti, this is using midi.

I doubt that there are so many recording / mastering engineers here, that do plain audio. But those are the missing-from-100%.
Which is why it is weird saying VST3 has nothing to do with MIDI!

I suspect the vast majority of DAW users are 95-99% casual enthusiasts. A cheap MIDI keyboard can be picked up for half of nothing.
Of those that actually stay with it (long term hobbyists) their experience with whatever DAW programs may be a determining factor.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:17 AM   #27
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Which is why it is weird saying VST3 has nothing to do with MIDI!
It has nothing to do with MIDI workflow in Reaper, that's true. Nothing particularly changed there in v5.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:20 AM   #28
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It has nothing to do with MIDI workflow in Reaper, that's true. Nothing particularly changed there in v5.
Specifying WORKFLOW makes that an accurate statement
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Old 09-04-2015, 01:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
It's obvious to see. The overwhelming majority of modern audio workstation buyers are doing mostly midi based or 90% midi based productions. No matter how many bands and audio tracking studios there are they're dwarfed by the people doing the one man band thing with midi by some insane factor. If you take the midi sequencer out of all of these popular products most of the companies would probably go bankrupt in a few years.

I would personally guess well over 90% of consumers that use daws are using midi and samplers, not hiring musicians. Then take into account that many people hiring studios are doing the same thing, producing with midi and samplers and it all becomes clear. It's not 1969 anymore where everybody has a tape machine.
Lol you right about that I am bass player mostly and graft alot of my base playing with midi works, love all the samplers love all EDM really do and that is 4real, I dont do EDM music but find it amongst the most free style artistic music that ever existed,

and when produced well it becomes the most interesting music to listen to.

Is it taking over well no but some of the most famous plugin creators are moving in that direction the latest omnisphere 2 izotope, have taken notice of what is going on in the music world and decided to contribute with great vsts and plugins not to mention waves who have dedicated great plugin packages to EDM production.

I my self am midi hungry my statement earlier was not criticizing reaper, its just what I feel if im asking to much then so be it fact is I believe and will say again just incase some missed it , I believe reaper midi work can pass some of the most popular DAWs

I made this statement simply because of how far reaper has come since I have been using it a few years now,

There has been much work put in the DAW, but not as much in the midi, in saying that this could be because maybe the reaper community are live performers or do a lot of live recordings, it could be reaper is catering for the needs of a certain type of music prodution i just dont know.

But there are others that like reaper that also love midi works and dont do live recordings or live performances, so what shall we say then find your self another daw, well do do have a few on my system but to say find your self another daw would be missing the point I feel reaper creators need to know that there are many type of users not just live performances or live recording.

This is a forum this is where it should be said, or should I go and say it on cubase forum or FL forum, or pro tools.

We are owners of reaper and are talking discussing not criticizing we are discussing about reaper and in this title post its about midi.

im not throwing at you Lawrence, just coming off the vibes of some other posts

Weather reaper does any thing more about midi is up to them, it would be nice but if they say stuff it, the midi editor is still useable, and we will just have to get along.

but if they do do some thing great in the midi work it will be yaaaaahoooooo

now then I just purchased spark 2 drum machine going for half price the software version and im going to bury my head in there ...........
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:04 PM   #30
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The Daw is all about doing musical notation !

The Daw is all about automating stage lighting !!
They're all dwarfed by people producing midi music at home, by miles.
That's just the reality, not a commentary on Reaper or the quality of that music or anything else. No point in ignoring what appears to be be clearly true.

There are valid reasons why you almost never hear people talking about Pyramix (or now Audition), because the vast majority are working with midi, and those daws don't have midi sequencers.

The single most interesting thing I've observed (no idea how wide spread it is) is that a lot of people doing midi based music never even render any of it to audio. They seem to mostly be working with a few vocal or guitar tracks or similar and that's it, and everything else stays midi.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:13 PM   #31
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and everything else stays midi.
Are you unsuccessfully trying to be funny ?

-Michael
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:49 PM   #32
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I use MIDI as my main feature for composing. But I've never been able to put into words why Reaper's MIDI seems slightly deprecated compared to other DAW's. Something about the piano roll is just not smooth, but I have a hard time explaining why.

Yet, I find the piano roll in FL Studio easier as well as the piano roll in Energy XT. Whatever it is, it's subtle, but it does matter.

And yet I prefer Reaper as my main DAW for all the other features. And a lot of us MIDI composers using VSTi's like to quickly freeze to audio so we can do special effects upon the audio. So it's not so bad. Reaper's audio feature's and handlings are strong.

But I agree that if the MIDI features got beefed up it would be a huge plus.
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:14 PM   #33
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To reduce your statements to some simple words, Lawrence, would be :

Midi = Amateurs ... Therefore midi is not of high importance

This is a poor and arrogant statement. But it shifts the thread successfully from "where are still weak spots in the midi implementation" towards "should we invest in midi at all" (with a preference of "no" as this is only for amateurs and edm people) .
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:59 PM   #34
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mschnell and mink99 you are both misunderstanding Lawrence.

As I understand his posts, he is saying that not only are a lot of bedroom recordists using a ton of MIDI, but the pros are also increasing their use of VST and MIDI.
As to keeping everything in MIDI rather than rendering before mixing, this is exactly my workflow. I like to have the option to change anything and everything right up to the last minute and the best way to do that is to keep everything as MIDI > VST up to and including the mixing stage.
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Old 09-05-2015, 02:57 AM   #35
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mschnell and mink99 you are both misunderstanding Lawrence.

As I understand his posts, he is saying that not only are a lot of bedroom recordists using a ton of MIDI, but the pros are also increasing their use of VST and MIDI.
As to keeping everything in MIDI rather than rendering before mixing, this is exactly my workflow. I like to have the option to change anything and everything right up to the last minute and the best way to do that is to keep everything as MIDI > VST up to and including the mixing stage.
I read Lawrence's comments this way too.

When I said this I wasn't being disparaging either:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softsynth
I suspect the vast majority of DAW users are 95-99% casual enthusiasts. A cheap MIDI keyboard can be picked up for half of nothing.
Of those that actually stay with it (long term hobbyists) their experience with whatever DAW programs may be a determining factor.
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Old 09-05-2015, 01:31 PM   #36
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Tonight though: "let's see if someone answered my thread"...o.o It will take a couple of days to read all the messages!

By the way I want to be clear: with midi I refer mostly to piano roll editing tools, automation, CC envelopes and so on...I feel that are missing a couple of features (that there are in some other daws...) that make fast working with giant midi projects (I mean a 100-track based orchestral scores midi mock up).

Sometimes I feel frustrated spending hours editing CC messages, adjusting curves because bezier curves changes every time a modify one point. Also the piano roll could be better in my opinion, sometimes I don't feel comfortable with grid: for example you can make pair beats white and dispair beats gray in the piano roll to orientate with beats...
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
mschnell and mink99 you are both misunderstanding Lawrence.

As I understand his posts, he is saying that not only are a lot of bedroom recordists using a ton of MIDI, but the pros are also increasing their use of VST and MIDI.
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It is quite a challenge to understand Lawrence the way you do, but I will try, maybe it would be helpful if Lawrence could clarify what he wanted to say .....
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:30 AM   #38
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Try reading his comments again, but this time without prejudice and you will likely see the slant is pretty much the dead opposite of what you guys read into it.

I am not trying to be an asshole, just urging you to read it again really carefully and with a mind open to the possible interpretations and mis-interpretations of his words.

I am starting to hate the creeping confrontationalism that seems to be taking over this forum more and more each day.
I would hate to lose it as a resource - why cant we all just accept that we all have differing pinions, mostly of equal value and validity and get along?

Now I suppose someone will tear this gush of sentimentalistic claptrap to shreds as well.....

Last edited by ivansc; 09-06-2015 at 02:30 AM. Reason: crap typing as usual
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:32 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dream_of_the_night View Post
By the way I want to be clear: with midi I refer mostly to piano roll editing tools, automation, CC envelopes and so on...I feel that are missing a couple of features (that there are in some other daws...) that make fast working with giant midi projects (I mean a 100-track based orchestral scores midi mock up).

Sometimes I feel frustrated spending hours editing CC messages, adjusting curves because bezier curves changes every time a modify one point. Also the piano roll could be better in my opinion, sometimes I don't feel comfortable with grid: for example you can make pair beats white and dispair beats gray in the piano roll to orientate with beats...
Yes, a lot of us is and would want improvements there.
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:02 AM   #40
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Could someone elaborate on the bezier vs parabolic curve part, please?
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