Arranging songs for and without a singer

[msore]

Any advice from experienced folks about
the differences between
how to arrange a song - from the beginning,
and at the level of basic structure -
for a singer
versus
how to arrange a piece that has no singer?

I am convinced that vocal and instrumental songs
are two very different critters, but I am not sure
how to go about setting the two of them up differently.

thanks.

[Troy]

Are you asking about song structure, or mix levels?

[msore]

all of it.

Starting from square one seems like a good idea. And square one, I suspect, is not the same for a vocal song and an instrumental.

For example. If I write a bassline and develop a rhythm section and whack out guitar chords for the structure of a song - that stuff might all get in the way of the vocal. Sometimes people duck that out so that the vocal can come through, but isn't that a case of the cart before the horse?

Wouldn't it make more sense to plan WHERE the vocals are (verse, chorsus, etc) and then develop the rhythm section AROUND that?

Another example, from my own thinking, is about instrument choices. If I am singing (God forbid), I will want different accompanying instruments than if my wife is singing. That basic choice, then, will affect everything afterward.

Or another issues timing of accompanying instruments. If I write a comping section under a verse on piano BEFORE the vocal is done, I find that sometimes the vocal and piano come into conflict (especially at the point where vox ends and harmonic phrases take up). Suggesting that I shouldn't have done the comp parts until AFTER the vocal is in place.

So my head is leaning in the direction of putting vocals first in vocal songs, but I have not seen much advice on the issue in the various forums.

[tls11823]

Originally Posted by msore

So my head is leaning in the direction of putting vocals first in vocal songs, but I have not seen much advice on the issue in the various forums.

Elton John receives a stack of lyrics from Bernie Taupin and creates the music to wrap around them.

Billy Joel starts with an instrumental song, complete with riffs, and hangs words on it. If he can't come up with words worthy of the music, he abandons the song.

Paul Simon sometimes starts with the words, sometimes with the music. He says that on rare occasions they both come at the same time, and those are his best works.

If I could write songs as well as any one of those guys, I'd be very pleased.

As with so many things, there's no right or wrong way to do it.

[karbomusic]

For example. If I write a bassline and develop a rhythm section and whack out guitar chords for the structure of a song - that stuff might all get in the way of the vocal. Sometimes people duck that out so that the vocal can come through, but isn't that a case of the cart before the horse?

Wouldn't it make more sense to plan WHERE the vocals are (verse, chorsus, etc) and then develop the rhythm section AROUND that?

I always tend to arrive at tunes by improve strumming then improving a melody and that usually dictates everything else. However, things obviously change along the way so my initial instrument tracks are almost always considered potential placeholders.

If there is no idea of what the vocal will be and the plan is to put a vocal there, I see that as both a different cart before a different horse and the music instrumentally, runs the risk of being somewhat meaningless until at least some vocal idea is thought of.

Barring all of the above, I used to play simple memorable melodies on the guitar or other instrument in the interim which forces me to leave space etc. for the future vocal. In other words if there is going to be vocal there, there usually needs to be some forethought when laying the instruments or you can mop yourself into a corner and have to replay anyway. IMHO of course.

[matey]

I've sent to a friend of mine an instrumental track (intro, verse, chorus, blabla...) without any clue about the singer line.
As far as my friend came back to me with a brand new line, I noticed how my back track suggested her (excellent) vocal line.
It was a guitars only track, with simple midi drum line and real bass, but the arrangement was heavily oriented, with lot of guitar licks, even on the verse section: you'd usually fill every hole on instrumental" songs.

First advice: dont make it too crowdy and keep the singer free from any unwanted suggestion. You'll eventually have a room for some nice different embellishments according to the new mood the singer will give the song

Second advice: dont make it too loud with maximizing stuff on the stereo bus.
cheers

[msore]

Thanks for the thinkin, yall.
Good perspective is not something we gain without asking others.

[msore]

Another issue that has occured to me as a design problem is the ATTITUDE in the vocal. Which is tied to interpretation of the song.

Quite a few times I sang a song with an attitude that I had not put into the accompaniment. A bluesy interpretation of a lyric in the voice, would seem to call for a bluesy accompaniment, right?

Nobody would want to record a Jim Morrison-type vocal on top of a Paul Simon-type rhythm section.

[Of course I am leaving for consideration the possibility that the vocalist may be getting it wrong and has to redo.]

I guess another way to get my question across is to ask if and when some recording engineer or producer would record the VOCAL first, and then use that as guideline for the other parts.

Seems almost all advice is - rhythm section first. But that seems to contradict the mentality of the good musician who is a good accompanist.

[plamuk]

luckily my vocalist isn't like this, but i think this is the format:

composer creates a nice piece of music
vocalist elbows his/her way into the song and gets all the credit

[msore]

Originally Posted by nym

luckily my vocalist isn't like this, but i think this is the format:

composer creates a nice piece of music
vocalist elbows his/her way into the song and gets all the credit

[Laughing uncomfortably] Wow. I have heard that before. But never seen it. Lucky I guess.

[merdave]

In some S. American cultures, such as in Peru, it is considered rude to take the lead for more than a min. or two. A vocal part is not an ego trip but more like another instrument. Mostly, this attitude comes from tribal relationships and respect for each other. Not something our culture seems to value too often now-a-days. We gravitate toward naked super-stars swinging on a wrecking ball. YMMV.

[chriscomfort]

Originally Posted by nym

luckily my vocalist isn't like this, but i think this is the format:

composer creates a nice piece of music
vocalist elbows his/her way into the song and gets all the credit

I think it also always depends on the type of collaboration you have or are looking for. Being the composer AND producer is different than being just the composer. And picking a singer who is willing to execute your vision is different than needing a singer to help you fill in the gaps and discover something that you didn't even think of.

I co-wrote a song with someone where they brought the idea and then I wrote all of the music and more than half the lyrics. All with her input taken into consideration. Two years later, we performed that song together. And while she was telling the audience the background of the writing process, she forgot to mention me at all. And I was sitting right there on stage with her as part of her backing band. She was nervous and therefore forgetful. But she was also careless. And even with the apology, I don't think I can forget that event. I think she thinks she had more to do with the writing process then she actually did. But whatever.

When I'm not writing or producing music, I am an actor. And I belong to a theater company. And what I've learned is that a playwright doesn't get to dictate how an actor will play a character that they wrote. Its up the to the actor and the director. Its a collaborative process. And the magic is what comes after all of the "players" have contributed. Having a writer is a rehearsal for a play that they aren't directing is a dangerous thing. Cause they will sometimes try and tell and actor how to say a line for example. That is called a line reading and that is a big no no. A good director even knows better than to do that. If the "right" actor was cast, then they have to be trusted to do their job.

If you want the result you are looking for as a song writer, then you need to cast the right singer.

Seems almost all advice is - rhythm section first. But that seems to contradict the mentality of the good musician who is a good accompanist.

In general, I also feel that is the best order of operation. But, if the song has evolved or is trying to evolve into something new and different, then just go back and rerecord the accompaniment. It doesn't mean that either the original rhythm performance or the vocal performance is inherently wrong. It just means they are different and need to be adjusted.

[msore]

Originally Posted by chriscomfort

When I'm not writing or producing music, I am an actor. And I belong to a theater company. And what I've learned is that a playwright doesn't get to dictate how an actor will play a character that they wrote. Its up the to the actor and the director. Its a collaborative process. And the magic is what comes after all of the "players" have contributed. Having a writer is a rehearsal for a play that they aren't directing is a dangerous thing. Cause they will sometimes try and tell and actor how to say a line for example. That is called a line reading and that is a big no no. A good director even knows better than to do that. If the "right" actor was cast, then they have to be trusted to do their job.

If you want the result you are looking for as a song writer, then you need to cast the right singer.

I think that is very perceptive and helpful. thnks

[msore]

Originally Posted by merdave

In some S. American cultures, such as in Peru, it is considered rude to take the lead for more than a min. or two. A vocal part is not an ego trip but more like another instrument. Mostly, this attitude comes from tribal relationships and respect for each other. Not something our culture seems to value too often now-a-days. We gravitate toward naked super-stars swinging on a wrecking ball. YMMV.

Yeah. And myself, I am interested in more tribal, traditional, blended arrangements. And that requires every part to be collaboratively changed by the other parts. And that is not found just in Peru (of course, you didn't say that, but I want to emphasize it). It is found in all sorts of non-pop music, conversation, education and performance. In jazz. In American native musics. In most versions of folk music. At back-porch get-togethers, etc.

But as a songwriter, with attachment to my lyrics, I do want them (in some songs) to be front and center, and embodied and interpreted by a singer.

[matey]

since I don't write any lyric, with no clue about what the vocal line would be either, I was amazed to find out what my singer friend has done with my arrangement track..
Lucky enough to have an inspired singer, tho

[merdave]

msore,
Ya, you're right. Guess I'll have to get back on the sunny side of life and stop being so cynical.

[msore]

Originally Posted by merdave

msore,
Ya, you're right. Guess I'll have to get back on the sunny side of life and stop being so cynical.

don't blame ya. But I figure cynicism about all the shit we should be cynical about - like as you say the STAR system - oughta be balanced out by looking around for more praiseworthy stuff.

I have trouble, being cynical about my own singing. Damn. I got a stack of songs with lyrics, but instead, I play with instrumentals. Shifting over to doing a good job with the singing requires a lot of learning and courage on my part. Part of my purpose in talking about it here might be just to get my willpower juiced up so I can get to singing into a damn mic.

Another issue, with some singers I am recording, is that often singers WANT to sing to an existing arrangment, but that ends up constraining them. They do with their voice what they are LED to do by the way the song is played. I envision far more expression from the singer when they provide their OWN interpretation.