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04-18-2009, 09:03 AM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313
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yeah but that would make everything out of time when you play it back no? Because you are probably internally compensating for latency
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04-18-2009, 09:23 AM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
yeah but that would make everything out of time when you play it back no?
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It sure does. It sucks. That's my whole argument in those threads in the link.
Its amazing how some people don't care about that.
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04-18-2009, 09:25 AM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313
It sure does. It sucks. That's my whole argument in those threads in the link.
Its amazing how some people don't care about that.
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i mean, what you PLAY is what you get being the one that sucks
HEARING what happens is the verification that you got it right, no? So then, you compensate according to what you HEAR no?
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04-19-2009, 05:55 AM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
i mean, what you PLAY is what you get being the one that sucks
HEARING what happens is the verification that you got it right, no? So then, you compensate according to what you HEAR no?
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I see your point, but I prefer what you "PLAY". However, as I argued in those threads, there is a legitimate use case for for both options.
I'm a drummer, and I was noticing in Ableton Live that all of my recorded beats were late. It was only until I found out that Ableton records what you HEAR, did I determine what the problem was. When banging out beats on a padKontrol, I'm not really doing any mental latency compensation. In fact, I guess I (and others) usually don't mentally compensate for the latency.
Again, a lot of this depends on the user knowing how the DAW handles these things, and adjusting his or her playing accordingly.
And again, those threads are a good (yet long) read, about these matters.
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04-19-2009, 06:00 AM
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#45
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 207
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From the Ableton thread:
Quote:
The below also applies to Audio when recording and monitoring audio with an audio effect on your track.
When record monitoring MIDI software instruments, Ableton Live records MIDI notes and then shifts them back according to system/plugin latency. This is to represent what is heard through the speakers as opposed to what is directly played on the MIDI keyboard or Pad. This is because MIDI notes should be played actually infront of time to manually account for the system latency within Live. Thus on playback Live delays the notes to represent what was heard (when the player was trying to play the output sound in time) rather than what was directly played on the MIDI instrument.
This allows Live to remain constantly in sync with 'live playing' within a latent software environment when monitoring through this environment. Live uses this method which is different to common DAW methods due to Lives 'Live' concept - where juggling plugin and system latency is managed in the whole system on playback AND recording. Standard DAWs use a different management system that does not account for all latencies - although this method does not induce a MIDI recording delay. If you feel it is essential to record softsynth MIDI without Lives MIDI delay you can record into an unmonitored MIDI track and shift that MIDI recording into a softsynth track for playback.
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04-19-2009, 07:21 AM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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@JBone
I had a similar issue in my studio using real drums triggering midi drums and using electronic trap kits. What I had to do to record - what I hear - (at that exact timing) was to tune the daw recording adjustment to also account for playback system latency. The daw handles the recording latency but I had to account for the playback latency manually... the delays through other things before anyone performing against it actually hears it and reacts.
Loop the output back into the input and measure the difference. If you have a performance room, send your headphone amp output back into the daw from there and measure the difference.
You may have to tune/adjust the daw to account for that. I'm pretty sure Reaper has a recording adjustment for that.
Last edited by Lawrence; 04-19-2009 at 07:24 AM.
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04-29-2009, 06:05 AM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
That's a saucy bit of program, isn't it.
I believe the app is simply telling you to use QPC timestamps. Apparently in Cubase you can only use QPC timestamps with DM or emulated DM ports, but in Reaper you can use QPC with the normal Windows MIDI port.
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MMh,
this is some new info from RME:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MC (RME)
Our 2.x series drivers used TGT. It was based on our own MME MIDI dll handling the MIDI stuff. Our current 3.x series driver is using Microsoft's miniport driver model, therefore we no longer use TGT or QPC - the operating system does, but honestly I do not know at this time which one that would be.
What makes it so complicated is that audio and MIDI must have the same relationship. Our (every) ASIO driver uses timestamps to indicate the sample position. This is based on TGT. So putting MIDI on QPC and the QPC timer drifting - there you have it...
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http://rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic....d=25178#p25178
So what to use in Reaper? Could you implement a loopback test which could test the interface for the best option?
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04-29-2009, 06:26 AM
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#48
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,752
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It would be tricky to build a generic "test your interface" loopback into Reaper, because a user might not have a connection between their MIDI input and outputs (or might have only inputs or only outputs or whatever).
In your case it sounds like you want to let Reaper timestamp MIDI events, though (I think letting Reaper timestamp events would only be the wrong thing to do in odd circumstances).
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04-29-2009, 06:37 AM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
It would be tricky to build a generic "test your interface" loopback into Reaper, because a user might not have a connection between their MIDI input and outputs (or might have only inputs or only outputs or whatever).
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Yeah. But you could tell the user to plug a cable between the input and output (on the same interface) for this ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
In your case it sounds like you want to let Reaper timestamp MIDI events, though (I think letting Reaper timestamp events would only be the wrong thing to do in odd circumstances).
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Ok, thanks!
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03-13-2010, 01:35 AM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
As far as I know, the RME HDSP WDM driver 3.077 doesn't have DirectMusic MIDI support. This means I need to use the emulated MIDI ports. But REAPER doesn't list them
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Ok, RME HDSP driver (since version 3.066) has DirectMusic MIDI support. But does REAPER make use of it too?
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03-14-2010, 03:26 PM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,630
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RME HDSP here too. About to move that card into a PC. Curious as to know how it will get along with the rest of the class.
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03-18-2010, 05:34 PM
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#52
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF
Posts: 394
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So, can someone translate this? If I have an RME FF400 and use its midi in port to trigger vsti's in Reaper on Win7, do I need to let Reaper timestamp it or what? Also isn't there some new timestamping thing in Win7?
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03-18-2010, 05:45 PM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Nope, I must disagree.
Quoting people is fine, and removing non-pertinent parts of the quote is also OK.
Changing the quote to say something quite different is not the right way to do things.
IMO, of course.
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Agreed 100%
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03-18-2010, 09:15 PM
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#54
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar
Subz Rocks
IMO, of course.
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:-P
lol
Last edited by Subz; 03-18-2010 at 09:16 PM.
Reason: coz i'm a doosh
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01-02-2015, 08:18 AM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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As this is the most accurate topic on reaper midi internals, but from 2009/2010 , is there anything to happen in v5 ?
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01-02-2015, 09:10 AM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
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Nö, eigentlich unglaublich aber wahr und wenn man ehrlich sein würde, ist´s auch nur ein Spiegelbild von dem was in Dingen Midi bei der Reaper DAW passiert......
denn fast 5 Jahre später, gibt es immer noch keinen Standard Midi-True Modus.
Oder sollte man besser schreiben.. noch nicht einmal einen MIDI True Modus?
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.
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01-02-2015, 09:18 AM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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OK, now in English, since this is in English part of the forum. Google Translate does it relatively fine, but it's still nice to be on the same page with each other.
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01-02-2015, 10:04 AM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
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ED is right. What is a Standard MIDI True Mode? Are you talking about MIDI Modes, ie. the generic Channel Mode messages (All Sound Off, Reset All Controllers, Local Control, All Notes Off) and/or the actual voice assignment Channel Modes (Omni Off, Omni On, Mono On, Poly On)?
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01-02-2015, 10:06 AM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I think he wanted to say MIDI Thru mode. Schwa was talking about how Reaper should have it (FIVE YEARS AGO) and then nothing happened. Like so many other things in Reaper. :/
Last edited by EvilDragon; 01-02-2015 at 10:12 AM.
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01-02-2015, 11:04 AM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Terra incognita
Posts: 7,670
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Ah, MIDI Thru, thanks ED.
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01-02-2015, 03:16 PM
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#61
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
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Of course, MIDI Thru instead of true was meant.
But I have also written deliberately MIDI True instead of (Thru), as a kind of allusion pun.
And SRY
this is of course the English -language forum, but I had to grade to the topic Reaper and MIDI
no desire for English ...
But Evil Dragon has correctly written what I in coarse said.
Thank you ED .
And now maybe for the next possible10 years nothing else but video
with a little bit different transitions and or effects in a DAW for musicans.
But I am getting happy to surprise a better....
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.
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01-03-2015, 06:28 PM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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The beginning of this thread is interesting, because it explains the coupling of the audio and midi timing, and why certain things therefore cannot work as expected, eg an early clock or manual compensation of hardware-midi latency larger than the audio latency.
Now, 5 years after this design-decision was made, to have the coupling , maybe this would be the perfect moment to think of an alternative approach.
But still (hardware)midi seems to be not in the focus of the devs and the majority of the users.
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01-04-2015, 07:31 PM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
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#############################
FIVE YEARS AGO:
schwa:
if you want no MIDI latency while playing live, the MIDI signal from your controller to the hardware synth has to go around Reaper,
by routing the MIDI cables either physically or virtually.
When we add MIDI thru, everyone will be happy.
#############################
Until today nothing is happen...
What is reaper if i have to go around reaper?
MIDI Thru is extremely important for live playing in sync with that what do you hear from Reaper.
Especially when local is off or slave rack synths are triggered and extremely,extremely,extremely important if also the midihardware audio out is routing to reaper Audio In > DAW Mix >Audio out
Without it is nearly impossible to hear your "sync live playing" in sync.
By the way I go around reaper in fact and use for fast midi routing loopMIDI and sometimes RTPMidi | both Tobias Erichsen
and the genius little MidiTrix of Hermann Seib for routing/patchbay/transform/filter and many other live important things.
But the good intention/way is it certainly not to (must)go around reaper.......
Love developer please, please, please it´s time now to add a MIDI Thru option!
As in any other DAWs holding something up..............
Thank you
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.
Last edited by ELP; 01-04-2015 at 08:05 PM.
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01-05-2015, 12:35 AM
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#64
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Yeah, schwa. Don't promise something you can't keep. 5 years is really too long a wait - and we know you can do it in like 5 minutes. Or hours, tops.
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01-05-2015, 04:46 AM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,553
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No, please, DO promise stuff you can't keep. Just make sure you keep the promise.
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01-07-2015, 05:26 AM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 306
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As a suggestion to the devs, jackaudio and jackmidi comes in 3 OS flavours, win, mac, and linux.
The midi is sample accurate.
Maybe have this as an additional audio and midi interface?
Alex.
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01-10-2015, 04:47 PM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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No jack please .
Keep this with linux and that will be ok.
Both Windows (to some extend) and OS X already have an Infrastructure that is able to handle the required features. So there is no need to put something completely overengineered on top of these (as the win and OS X implementations of jack are just wrappers) when there is no real use for the enhanced features, and the core remains.
Just a provide proper implementation based on the os-specific features. There was obviously a design decision some 5 or 8 years ago that has proven to be not fully adequate to the requirements.
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08-08-2015, 11:15 PM
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#68
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Finland
Posts: 792
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I ran into this problem just recently with more exotic piece of hardware and routing. I have external piano module that I want to record midi and audio of at the same time, and give myself a possibility to edit the midi afterwards.
All the midi notes that I record are ahead of time no matter how much I try to twiddle with the adjustments of latency compensations. It doesn't matter if just audio is in line with the grid, but I want to see the midi notes in their proper places too.
Right now it's like this:
Follow metronome and play some notes -> audio is recorded Where it lands. MIDI is recorded consistently early.
Play it back -> same result what you played. Quantize it and move it to the grid -> audio is now late if recorded from MIDI track.
Delay MIDI output appropriate amount -> recorded notes are still early if not quantized after recording and now the Audio is early too since it's latency compensated.
Could you make it so that MIDI is put where it's supposed to be after recording (considering all the delays in MIDI separately from AUDIO delay), and when played back, it's delay compensated to earlier time automatically to keep the audio in synch? (like it's currently possible to do)
Last edited by Icchan; 08-10-2015 at 07:36 AM.
Reason: Added more detail about the subject and worded issue little bit softer.
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08-08-2015, 11:27 PM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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There are things to happen in v5. Let's wait for v14b.
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08-09-2015, 10:24 AM
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#70
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 372
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Super helpful thread. Always sensed there was something off with MIDI timing in Reaper but just settled on it being one it's weaknesses or the flakiness of midi timing in general. Plus, I usually do most of my midi heavy projects in other DAWs (looking forward to improvements in Reaper that change that though!).
For OSX there is a great piece of free software I use that will let you route midi outside of Reaper: http://notahat.com/midi_patchbay/
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08-09-2015, 10:39 AM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,210
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RC14b and midi out clock is still only in sync when starting from very start of project! starting anywhere else is hit and miss (different offset every time)
MPD/MPC external device.
Subz
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09-06-2015, 10:59 PM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 943
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use v5.02rc3 or stable 5.01 .
These include the SPP & START M-Clock option for AKAI and other devices.
EDIT:
or greater.
For various reasons, MIDI user should use >=V5.1x
__________________
I hope you can understand me? Without german beer my written english is always very bad, with beer it becomes unbearable!.
Less is more! To much limited the own creativity.
Last edited by ELP; 10-30-2015 at 04:48 PM.
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10-30-2015, 09:15 AM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP
use v5.02rc3 or stable 5.01.
These include the SPP & START M-Clock option for AKAI and other devices.
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YES!! (just tested the new (no SPP) option today!
My MPD26 is as tight as in Logic now!!
Thank You and well done to the team!!!
now to dig up my bug report and mark as solved
Subz
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03-22-2016, 10:08 AM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Time to bump this thread asking schwa for MIDI Thru again.
"When we add MIDI thru, everyone will be happy."
What seems to be the problem in implementing this to Reaper?
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03-24-2016, 07:42 PM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 1,303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Time to bump this thread asking schwa for MIDI Thru again.
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+1000. Definitely a must.
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03-25-2016, 04:19 AM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Maybe if we bump this every eight hours?
Just about given up on ever seeing this, to be honest.
And of course our boy is a trifle busy with all that "spider writing" stuff at present.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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03-25-2016, 03:38 PM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 417
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MIDI timing, when it comes to rendering the output(MIDI data, not audio) of an arp., or sequencer type plugin is a total joke, sad to say.
You end up with not only f'ed up timing, but also notes that get cut short, or zero length notes. Most of the time no two renders are even the same.
It's been like this for at least the 7 years that I've been using REAPER.
So.., come on devs, please give us a solution, be it a seperate(optional) mode that does'nt rely on the audio engine timing or whatever.., just please fix this, it's absolutely maddening!!!
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03-26-2016, 03:16 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: N. Virginia
Posts: 35
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Yes PLEASE!
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03-26-2016, 06:07 AM
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#79
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NextLevel
MIDI timing, when it comes to rendering the output(MIDI data, not audio) of an arp., or sequencer type plugin is a total joke, sad to say.
You end up with not only f'ed up timing, but also notes that get cut short, or zero length notes. Most of the time no two renders are even the same.
It's been like this for at least the 7 years that I've been using REAPER.
So.., come on devs, please give us a solution, be it a seperate(optional) mode that does'nt rely on the audio engine timing or whatever.., just please fix this, it's absolutely maddening!!!
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I agree that block size should not affect render timing, but if you set your render block size to 32 samples or something (Preferences->Rendering), timing is tight as a gnat's chuff.
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03-27-2016, 04:51 PM
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#80
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,650
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Although that will work, I was distracted by the JS Arp and BlueARP having the same bug of sending all MIDI at the beginning of a block. It looks like Kirnu Cream also misbehaves at buffer sizes greater than 4096, but is fine apart from that.
So there is no issue with timing of arps/sequencers in Reaper other than the bug in JS MIDI Arpeggiator.
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