All Reaper Rendering coming out louder than recording??

[psingman]

Ok, I have spent the past two days trying to mix down and then maximize and master some tracks to finish up my last song. When I render down to all the settings I have in my TCP window, the rendering comes out much louder than I set them on playing back while mixing. Even save live output to disk is coming out louder. I even turned off any FX on Master Buss and it still is coming out definitely a lot louder than my playback volumes.

Can someone please explain or extrapolate on what is happening? I just want the tracks being rendered to sound like what is recorded on them. I can't figure out why all these snags keep coming up when I am attempting to complete the process on my recorded tracks. There must be something going on, so will wait for your wisdom, c'mon, let's get this song done and ready for listeners, thanks muchly, psingman

[Tod]

Hey psingman, I've not experienced this problem so I'm not sure.

Have you loaded the rendered file back into a blank or new Reaper project to check it out?

How did you determine that it's too loud?

[jonespnice]

How much louder is the song? What panning laws do you have set up? Do you have extra sends set up that you are not aware of?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by jonespnice

How much louder is the song? What panning laws do you have set up?

Since it sounds right rendering in real time and on playback I'm thinking panning is not the problem. However, it certainly is important for setting up your mix.

Do you have extra sends set up that you are not aware of?

Usually something is missing if the routing is screwed up. In this case he say's it's louder.

[Smurf]

Well, at least it is not lower & muffled, like mine are....

[zappa]

Are you any nested folder tracks?

z.

[psingman]

Yes, there are nested folder tracks, one for guitars, one for vocals and the rest are just drums using EZdrummer and Synth1 with a send to Magnus Choir for some choir pads. So, is that what is causing the problem? Should I turn off the folder signs, why does that cause problems?
\
Well, I worked around it like I always do, by trial and error. Is there any other way to learn or live in this recording realm by any other method? The reason I am asking is, something happened that never happened before. Instead of using TLS Max on the Master buss, which also made the render way too loud but sounded good when playing back...I checked that off and then decided to just raise Master Track volume and when it rendered it was way too loud, but again didn't sound like that when I played the whole song through.

So, direct me or redirect me and if possible, explain what is going on. I thought saving live export to disk would work, but it made it louder too. Is something being piled on top of something else, haha, like an old wrestling thingie we used to do when young, now just keeping moving. Anyway, this must have happened to others as I never encountered this before so must be some simple issue I need to circumvent or navigate, OK, appreciate any assistance, psingman

[sonicbreeze]

You will get accurate and quicker solution here if you share .RPP file (no audio files only .RPP)

[chrisharbin]

usually it's people saying their renderings come out softer than the original mix lol!

[richie43]

As someone has already said, after rendering the mix, load that back into a new Reaper project and check levels against the unrendered mix. I suspect that it is whatever media player you are using for playback that is playing it louder than your mix. Side-note; leave your master fader at unity when mixing down, you want to keep your levels manageable.

[PAPT]

I also think this is being caused by the playback method.

If it is being played back by a media player that player may be upping the volume.

If it is being played back through Reaper then possibly it is being imported into a track that is routed somewhere that is raising the level or there is an effect somewhere.

You could import the wave into a new project and then open the original project in a new tab so that you can do a quick comparison.

If you import the wave into the original project you have to put it on a track that has no routing and also make certain that any effects on the master are turned off.
Also, when you play the project you have to make certain that the master effects are turned back on.
Master effects on when playing the project and master effects off when playing the rendered wave.

These problems are pretty much always user error of some sort.
We all stumble into it from time to time.

[richie43]

Originally Posted by PAPT

I also think this is being caused by the playback method.

If it is being played back by a media player that player may be upping the volume.

If it is being played back through Reaper then possibly it is being imported into a track that is routed somewhere that is raising the level or there is an effect somewhere.

You could import the wave into a new project and then open the original project in a new tab so that you can do a quick comparison.

If you import the wave into the original project you have to put it on a track that has no routing and also make certain that any effects on the master are turned off.
Also, when you play the project you have to make certain that the master effects are turned back on.
Master effects on when playing the project and master effects off when playing the rendered wave.

These problems are pretty much always user error of some sort.
We all stumble into it from time to time.

In addition to the above, make sure your pan law is at 0db. This will play it back in reaper at the recorded volume.

[planetnine]

Originally Posted by richie43

In addition to the above, make sure your pan law is at 0db. This will play it back in reaper at the recorded volume.

Master pan? Can't you set it to dual pan? I've always presumed that went direct to L & R with no attenuation. Most render differences are a result of playback issues I've found, rather than rendered gain or pan law issues.


>

[richie43]

Originally Posted by planetnine

Master pan? Can't you set it to dual pan? I've always presumed that went direct to L & R with no attenuation. Most render differences are a result of playback issues I've found, rather than rendered gain or pan law issues.


>

You would think, but if your track pan is at -3db, at center setting a track will play at a lower volume. I have tested this many times.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by richie43

You would think, but if your track pan is at -3db, at center setting a track will play at a lower volume. I have tested this many times.

Same here, it should be set to the 0.0 db pan law.

I think the best way to check it in the same project file that was used for the mix would be:

> Insert or drag the rendered file into a new track and set the Pan law to 0.0db.
> Open the send I/O of the new track, uncheck Master/parent and Add new hardware output sending it to the same L/R output that the Master is set to.
> Mute the new track, open the Grouping matrix and group the mutes for the new track and the Master.

I think that way he can use the mute button to get quick precise comparisons.

[windowman]

Have you tried playing the file through Reaper's media explorer? Also, a long shot, but do you have "Add items to new tracks in project when finished" checked? That happened to me once and, because the file is added way at the end of the project, I didn't see it.

[psingman]

Wow, pan laws and other parties playing back rendered files. How does this all happen when I had the rendered file put into open track after rendering via function box. Something is strange here....as this never happened before and I have followed basically the same format for a few years.

I do agree about maybe something like WMP is stepping in. How can you find that out exactly and why would it do that when I went in and rechecked my asio drivers being used on input and output. So, the rpp file might need to be looked at, that must need the assooiated wavs, right, hmm, oh well, got a lot done the past few days but more on the guesstimation gear. I don't see how that live output to disk is better, in fact seems harder to use. I do realize that a lot of people in here use Reaper a lot, but I only utilize it when I need to get a song out to the right persons or am in the throes of a recording project, kinda both at the same time now. I am inquisitive because I want to get these procedures figured out so I can accomplish more quickly but it doesn't seem to cooperating, back to the studio, psingman

[Tod]

Originally Posted by psingman

I do agree about maybe something like WMP is stepping in. How can you find that out exactly and why would it do that

Based on the problems your having it's likely the way your playing it back and what you're using.

If you do what I mentioned in my above post you will know for sure. Quite likely there's nothing wrong with your rendered file.

[zappa]

Package & post up an RPP if you can. Or try the following to determine if the problem lies in the area of folders:

If you can, make a temp copy of the project folder and in the temp copy remove all the folder tracks, so your project is a flat list of tracks with no nested folders. See if the problem goes away in this configuration.

z.

[magicmusic]

I think i have the same Problem, and i guess there seem something wrong in reaper and wasapi shared sound allocation. I use the nvidia HDMI output to surround receiver and shared. My windows setting is 16 bit 44100 512 samples (11 ms Latency). Exclusive do not work on my system.

I hear this only in reaper. other music programs that use wasapi shared do not pumping, when signal get over 0 db in Mixer. Only Reaper enable the windows Limiter/compressor, or maybe. when output signal get louder as 0 db then pumping is hear but no clipping. Can test when you boost master level so that +20 db in red is show.

when render such a song, it sound much loader and have lots clippling distortion. I think it is better when reaper can fix, because this problem confuse. I first thought reaper have a limiter and i thought it is ok, when +3 db louder. but when i hear such a song from render, then it sojnd diffrent. so i search whats the reason

I also notice that use of waveout sound device in reaper, not have this Limiter and pumping effect. but waveout is bad in latency. and of course ASIO have not this Limiter effect, but i cant use ASIO, because surround work only with dolby digital. dolby digital have too much latency. I guess more than 100 ms

[serr]

Originally Posted by magicmusic

I think i have the same Problem, and i guess there seem something wrong in reaper and wasapi shared sound allocation. I use the nvidia HDMI output to surround receiver and shared. My windows setting is 16 bit 44100 512 samples (11 ms Latency). Exclusive do not work on my system.

I hear this only in reaper. other music programs that use wasapi shared do not pumping, when signal get over 0 db in Mixer. Only Reaper enable the windows Limiter/compressor, or maybe. when output signal get louder as 0 db then pumping is hear but no clipping. Can test when you boost master level so that +20 db in red is show.

when render such a song, it sound much loader and have lots clippling distortion. I think it is better when reaper can fix, because this problem confuse. I first thought reaper have a limiter and i thought it is ok, when +3 db louder. but when i hear such a song from render, then it sojnd diffrent. so i search whats the reason

I also notice that use of waveout sound device in reaper, not have this Limiter and pumping effect. but waveout is bad in latency. and of course ASIO have not this Limiter effect, but i cant use ASIO, because surround work only with dolby digital. dolby digital have too much latency. I guess more than 100 ms

Do you have the same issue if you render straight to 24 bit (leaving out the reduction to 16 bit part)? Some older media players jack the volume up for 16 bit (or more accurately, don't attenuate to match level with 24 bit program).

Try Songbird media player.
I play surround program all the time. And I absolutely refuse to listen to surround sound stepped on by that lossy dolby business! Lossy DTS isn't much better. (encodes it to 2 channels for stereo-only formats and then sorta kinda converts it back to 6 kinda - much worse than mp3 compression with stereo program) Yes, they have lossless "Master HD" versions now but at that point you might as well just use multichannel FLAC files.

I can mix and match stereo, 5.1, 4.0, etc in the same playlist and everything always comes out the correct speakers. Plays FLAC and all other audio formats lossless to lossy.

I've tried a few other media players (VLC, Play, etc) that ALMOST work but have bugs like sending some weird Lf + Rf mix to the center channel for no-center-channel-having audio like 4.0 quad for one example. Songbird has no such bugs.

[magicmusic]

Its not a media player problem. maybe other can try it out on PC win 7 wasapi sound output select. put volume so it is high and red is show and hear the pumpin and no distortion is hear. because window add a limiter feature. it happen also when choose only stereo output. I have written this with the surround that it is clear it is important to have correct working wasapi support. because wasapi is the only way to get with surround receivers surround able for realtime play. dolby digital or DTS digital have too high latency

[serr]

I don't know how the controls for ASIO4ALL work in windows. But in Audio MIDI Setup (the OSX audio utility) you click the multichannel tab and select 5.1 from the drop down menu. Then like I said, everything just comes out the right channels from stereo to any surround config.

On newer machines with thunderbolt, you can connect a surround receiver with a thunderbolt to HDMI cable. The receiver needs to have an HDMI input that has NOT been disabled for audio (a cheapness thing to watch out for). The receiver shows up as a connected audio interface and off you go. Pre-thunderbolt, you need a firewire or USB audio interface and then connect to the 6 analog channel inputs on the receiver.

Windows is probably a similar scenario.

Don't dismiss media players too quickly. You wouldn't think... but there are many buggy/sloppy apps out there! (Shockingly, VLC for one - for surround program anyway. iTunes not playing FLAC files, etc)

If some limiter feature or any processing is turned on in the media player - all bets are off. You should be able to set it for lossless playback with no "suck buttons" engaged. Again, there are a lot of stunningly bad media players out there. I really suggest trying Songbird (it's free).

[magicmusic]

asio for all is a good suggestion, thanks for info, but important for this is, that the sounddevice need set in shared mode, so windows sounds can play on same soundcard.

I do a quick test and it work. strange is that with asio4all all reaper output is louder as on wavout or wasapi when set Output channels to 6 and my song use no surround. i need test more, if there are also lower latency possible on high cpu load(near same as wasapi), then its best to forget wasapi sound output in reaper. seem windows reduce volume of front speaker when channels are set to more than 2

[whiteaxxxe]

the Windows soundsystem is complete crap. its from Microsoft.

you should do everything possible to avoid using it or let it interfere with anything audio-related.

[magicmusic]

Wasapi(in since win vista) is much better as direct sound and wave out. I think it is good enough. Only on reaper it work not good. I think asioforall use too wasapi on win7. I test more, i get with songs with many voices 7.8 ms (show in reaper 5 32bit) without crackle in shared mode. in other music programs wasapi work same good as ASIO. I have a soundblaster z that support ASIO, so i can compare. I use win 7 64 and running 32 bit DAW give with ASIO too not shorter usable latency as 10 ms.

I test windows 10 beta, sound work much better there. 4 ms are no problem. but all thats better as 10 ms is enough for me. remember a 100 hz Tone have a peak to peak length of 10 ms. latency over 20 ms i hear. only dolby digital or DTS digital is bad. I guess the code for dolby digital dts digital come from dolby/dts manager and surround receiver developer or soundcard developer only merge it in. So i guess all product that use dolby d or dts d have same latency. seem dts d have a little better latency. but too bad too. And because modern surround receiver only support HDMI input or dolby digital input i can only use nvidia HDMI out.

dolby pro logic or dts neo 6 need only 2 channels and work with low latency too. but this need encode and have a loss in stereo width and i need switch on off in receiver. with HDMI sound i can play stereo songs or surround songs on same input of receiver.

nvidia or ATI hdmi sound out have no native ASIO driver. If there somebody do a ASIO driver, i of course use this. There is a soundcard with ASIO 2.0, and HDMI out, but is expensive

http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_...pecifications/

[gofer]

Originally Posted by magicmusic

Wasapi(in since win vista) is much better as direct sound and wave out. I think it is good enough. Only on reaper it work not good.

Using Steinbergs UR22 on Win8.1, 64bit, I don't experience any noticeable differences between the dedicated ASIO driver and Wasapi mode. Latency goes just as low and CPU use is very much the same. I think they did a good job. I forgot to switch back to ASIO for about a month and everything just worked as smooth as ever. Even the onboard Realtek soundchip and the HDMI sound work pretty darn well here with Wasapi. I didn't do any severe tests with those, though.
In which way does Wasapi work not good in Reaper?

[magicmusic]

the Problem reaper have with wasapi is, that windows add a limiter and lower volume if signal come near to 0 db. Maybe you can try out and confirm the problem if other have that too, when you do this short test. You need no surround song.

Do you use wasapi in exclusive or shared mode ?. in excluse mode it work. problem is only in shared.asioforall i must use in shared mode for hdmi sound, this have the problem not.

please play a song in wasapi and remove any master limiter. Now increase master level in reaper mixer so that +20 db is show in red. In wasapi you hear no distortion, only pumping of volume. the other problem is hear not so clear, that in wasapi the output is not so loud as in ASIO.

please change in reaper preferences output channels to 6. when do this in asio volume of the 2 front speaker is the same. with wsapi your stereo song get lower volume

Did you get the same Problems ?. maybe you can try out other sound output. maybe this is only the problem of nvidia or soundblaster z audio driver or in win 7 64 i use. maybe i should test what happen on win 10