Old 04-16-2015, 03:29 PM   #1
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Default Orchestral template rundown

This is what I mainly use REAPER for. I know this will only be of interest to a relatively tiny amount of people on here, but what the heck. If nothing else, it's proof that a) REAPER midi isn't quite as abysmal as some people would have you think, and b) you don't necessarily need VSL or other high-end libs (or Kontakt for that matter) to do passable orchestral stuff.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:09 AM   #2
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I listened to some of your tracks and I have to say they sound pretty amazing, indeed what you said in that (blog?) post is right on.

The only "quality" issue people seem to have with soundfonts is just them being 16-bit but honestly, I never understood that obsession with 24-bit for samples. If a sample is recorded low then you play it back low/quiet as well, obviously the result won't exceed the volume of samples since in the end everything has to be below 0db. (correct me if I'm wrong here)

Anyway some people have been making great tracks 10 years ago, I don't see why people would think oldies are garbage now... I prefer to mix oldies with newer stuff just to be "different" than all the people who jump on the "latest and shiniest things" bandwagon. Layering them together or even processing is more fun than just using the same sound everyone else has. (I use a lot of synths when layering as well so I guess mine is more "hybrid" sound?).

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:49 AM   #3
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Thanks kenz. Yeah you're right, soundfonts are usually 16 bit but IIRC the format can do 24, it's just not very common and I think most editors and converters downsample to 16 anyway. If a sample is recorded properly, 16 bit is not a problem. I mean, a velocity layer so soft that the limitations of 16 bit become an issue isn't going to be musically useable anyway. So I agree, 24 bit samples is nice to have but I honestly doubt that anyone could actually tell the difference in a blind test. The quality of the recording itself is much more important than bit depth.
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Old 04-17-2015, 07:00 AM   #4
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SFZ + Works for you? Interesting. In my testing of absolutely none of the controls beyond loading an SF2 file work, and also SFZ support was dropped (DAFUQ its named SFZ).

I use Sforzando for SFZ and SFZ (regular, man this is getting confusing) for loading SF2.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:22 PM   #5
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This post couldn't have come at a better time for me, Mattias.

After recently hearing a few of your pieces, you became a very interesting figure, to me. So I followed some of your sig-links, discovered and downloaded SSO (thank you very much), which in-turn lead to discovering and downloading 64 bit Sforzando (btw - that 1st "SFZ Player" link on the SSO page is dead), then bumped into and downloaded (just yesterday) Ivy Audio's "Piano in 162" SFZ. I too use Piano One almost all of the time, but this sounds pretty damned good.

All the while a million questions I wanted to ask you were swirling around in my head (should I bug him? Nawww. Maybe I could pm him?... nooo... that'd be intrusive... aww, forget it...). And then you post this. Perfect. Thanks. I'm in the middle of looking it over, now. And when I'm done, I'll probably still have a bunch of questions (but that's the nature of discovery - keeps this old fart going).

Look. A lot of this may be old stuff to most of you guys, but it's new to me and I'm lovin' it. Compared to my 4-track R to R setup in the '70's, this is like heaven. What's a decade or two here & there? My '69 Ein Heldenleben record still blows me away...

So, thank you again for your generosity.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:31 PM   #6
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Cool.
Thanks for sharing
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:33 PM   #7
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This is either an obvious question or a stupid question - or perhaps I missed the memo:

No SSO?
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Old 04-17-2015, 06:58 PM   #8
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Very informative, thank you. I've wondered if you use any pipe organ soundfonts or plugins?
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:51 AM   #9
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This is especially interesting to me, cause I'm working towards creating orchestral music by myself. Your other article on positioning is very nice, too. Thank you for the great reads.
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Old 04-18-2015, 04:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
SFZ + Works for you? Interesting. In my testing of absolutely none of the controls beyond loading an SF2 file work, and also SFZ support was dropped (DAFUQ its named SFZ).
Yep, works fine. I run it as separate process, with "Buggy plugin compatibility mode" enabled. Only problem I have is that on first load (after a reboot, or if the project hasn't been opened for a while) is that I get some dfd stutters when playing back. This might possibly be because the samples are on a slow WD Green hard drive and no fault of sfz+'s though, and it goes away almost immediately once everything is cached. Other than that, it runs amazingly well for a 10+ year old 32 bit plugin


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Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
All the while a million questions I wanted to ask you were swirling around in my head (should I bug him? Nawww. Maybe I could pm him?... nooo... that'd be intrusive... aww, forget it...). And then you post this. Perfect. Thanks. I'm in the middle of looking it over, now. And when I'm done, I'll probably still have a bunch of questions (but that's the nature of discovery - keeps this old fart going).
Glad to hear you're finding this stuff useful ReaperMadness! Just go ahead and ask if there's something you'd like to know.


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Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Cool.
Thanks for sharing
No problem

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Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
This is either an obvious question or a stupid question - or perhaps I missed the memo:

No SSO?
Not sure I get what you mean here. No SSO where?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Commala View Post
Very informative, thank you. I've wondered if you use any pipe organ soundfonts or plugins?
Nope, not a single one actually. Never been much for pipe organs I'm afraid.


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Originally Posted by mucknog View Post
This is especially interesting to me, cause I'm working towards creating orchestral music by myself. Your other article on positioning is very nice, too. Thank you for the great reads.
Thanks mucknog, I'm planning on writing more articles so let me know if there's some particular topic you'd like to see covered!
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Old 04-18-2015, 05:55 AM   #11
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Interesting Mathias, thanks for sharing. I'd never even heard of soundfont ... how does that work, don't you plug in Kontakt / Play / Omnisphere directly into the FX insert on a track?

And do you still have only 8 GB of RAM?
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Old 04-18-2015, 06:13 AM   #12
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Soundfonts are a very old file format for sampled instruments, dating back to 90s and SoundBlaster soundcards. No relation to any of the major sampler format/s of today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundFont


As Matthias mentions in his blog post, Kontakt etc. are out of his price range (but I do think he should take a look on sales NI periodically has, and perhaps even snag Komplete instead ).
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Old 04-18-2015, 06:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by cerinder:

Not sure I get what you mean here. No SSO where?
Well, I guess I should have posed my question differently, since SSO is an entire collection of samples. I'll try again.

Just curious - Are any of the samples, listed in your template, samples which are included in SSO?
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
Interesting Mathias, thanks for sharing. I'd never even heard of soundfont ... how does that work, don't you plug in Kontakt / Play / Omnisphere directly into the FX insert on a track?
It works same as with any sampler VSTi, I load sfz+ as a channel insert, then load the soundfonts into sfz+.

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And do you still have only 8 GB of RAM?
Yes, three days later I still have 8GB RAM


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Soundfonts are a very old file format for sampled instruments, dating back to 90s and SoundBlaster soundcards. No relation to any of the major sampler format/s of today.
Not entirely true. The sfz format was created (by the developer of sfz+ actually) as a non-monolithic, open and more powerful version of the soundfont format.


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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
As Matthias mentions in his blog post, Kontakt etc. are out of his price range (but I do think he should take a look on sales NI periodically has, and perhaps even snag Komplete instead ).
Yes, I have a feeling I will end up with Kontakt sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
Well, I guess I should have posed my question differently, since SSO is an entire collection of samples. I'll try again.

Just curious - Are any of the samples, listed in your template, samples which are included in SSO?
Yes, a few. The UoI samples were used in SSO, as well as the solo violin I'm using (which I noticed now I forgot to list), plus a couple of other public domain/CC-licensed percussion samples IIRC.
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerendir View Post
Not entirely true. The sfz format was created (by the developer of sfz+ actually) as a non-monolithic, open and more powerful version of the soundfont format.
Yep, I know that, but the question was about SoundFont in particular.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-18-2015 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yep, I know that, but the question was about SoundFont in particular.
My point was that sf2's ARE related to at least one modern sample format, but nevermind

So ED, what kind of prices do Kontakt usually go for during these sales?
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:14 AM   #17
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Usually 50% off. The way I got Kontakt was by first purchasing the cheapest Kontakt Player library there is (Sonic Reality Infinite Player, $49), then crossgrade from that (there was one sale when they had 50% off on upgrades and crossgrades, I took that one, crossgrade was something like $119 if I vaguely remember). From there, I took a Spring special sale for crossgrade to Komplete 8. Simples. (Note: if you have the free Sennheiser Drum'mica library, you can crossgrade to full Kontakt from it, as well!)

My next upgrade is probably going to be Komplete 11 Ultimate, provided it offers Reaktor 6 and Kontakt 6 at least.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:26 AM   #18
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Wow, that is indeed cheap! Good to know. It'll probably be a while, as I assume I'm going to have to upgrade my machine to get the most out of Kontakt.

It feels sort of inevitable though. While my current setup still works fine for my needs, I'm going to need something more future-proof sooner or later.
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:33 PM   #19
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Well, Matthias, I have to say that I am very impressed. Your music is beautiful, and with the limited system and resources you have, you squeeze the most out of it. I wish I could say the same thing for myself.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:06 AM   #20
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Thank you Peter! How 'bout letting us know about your system and samples?
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:18 AM   #21
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Thanks for your post Cerendir.

I did an entire album in 1996, with a SoundBlaster AWE32 with 2 MB of RAM for soundfonts It was great I used 1MB for a piano soundfont, and the other MB for the rest of the sounds, like strings, and percussion, etc. Then there was a small program to tweak/hack the reverbs to be able to customize the reverb. There was also a program called AWEVBank that allowed you to load a single program from the soundfont into the memory without having to load the entire soundfont. Amazing times
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:53 AM   #22
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Great to hear from you and I too followed up the music.
My reaction is one of gratitude really in the sense that in former days we would not have been able to have your musical "vision" realized ad we would all be the poorer. The fact that it was all done with REAPER is quite amazing and with fairly easily accessible resources more amazing still.

My second thought is that if you were to do a tutorial about how to achieve your sound, that would be fantastic...
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:54 AM   #23
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Thanks for posting, Matthias. I found your rundown page very informative and your music very creative.

A fine example of using those tools that you have to their best advantage!
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Old 04-19-2015, 02:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Thank you Peter! How 'bout letting us know about your system and samples?
Sure. Below are two pictures I took last night of my studio (it was a beautiful sunset, usually I keep the heavy curtains closed to keep out the sunlight and to avoid direct reflections.





It's a bit difficult to make out in the dark, but I have two DAW computers, a custom built laptop on the left (with external 24" monitor to its left) and another custom built, rack mounted 4U PC to the right.

The laptop was custom built back in 2009 by PC Audiolabs, since then I upgraded it a couple of times. It now has a Core i7 processor, 24 GB of RAM, 3 hard drives, one boot drive and two Raid O sample drives, with most of the samples stored externally on a G Raid drive connected through eSata. Windows 7 64 bit professional. The samples I use are most everything by Eastwest (the complete Hollywood series Diamond edition, Symphonic Orchestra, RA, Gypsy, SD 2 and 3, and so on), Komplete 5 and 6 and a couple of the more recently released libraries by NI, Omnisphere, Xsample chamber orchestra and some more stuff. The sequencer is Reaper but I also have Sibelius 7.5 and Notion 3 installed (as well as Pro Tools 10 and 11, but I use that on the other computer). Two midi controllers: Akai MPK25 and a Roland Juno G synth. The soundcard / controller is a Projectmix I/0 (in the middle) which I plan to expand with a Behringer sound card to get 6 physical outputs for 5.1 surround.

The rack mounted computer is my primary Pro Tools computer, and backup in case my laptop goes kaputt for whatever reason. It is also Windows 7 64 bit, 16 GB of RAM, quad core processor, with an SSD 1 TB boot drive, a 3 TB documents drive and two sample drives. This is my primary Pro Tools computer, with PT 10 (plus the complete production toolkit) and 11, and lots of plugins by Waves (Gold, 360, etc). The controller is a new iCon Qcon Pro (aluminium unit), soundcard M Audio profire 2626. I could expand the controller with two more expander units but I don't really need that many controls, and I want to keep some room on the table for scores, note paper, an orchestration chart with instrument ranges, etc.

I'm now working on a short film (post production sound and music), the master session is in Pro Tools 10, but the music is written in Sibelius (piano music) and Reaper (most everything else). It's a short ballet drama, so for temp music for the dancing scenes they used a lot of classical piano music that is popular for ballet practice, including the famous Chopin Waltz in C# minor. I'm a terrible piano player so I really have to write out the notes by hand in Sibelius, sync the tempo to the temp track and then take it from there. A lot of work but imo the best way to do justice to the beautiful original by Chopin. The projectmix has 4 physical outputs so I can create cues in quadrophonic format now (5.1 hopefully soon, but for music that's not really a biggie to be honest), and import those one by one into Pro Tools, neatly lined up in color coded and labeled music tracks.

That is not too dissimilar to the way Hans Zimmer works (several computer streaming into one PT session), though obviously on a much much smaller scale. It's overkill probably for a project this size but PT is the benchmark still in post production and I learned from several "big boys" that (a) in sound post you need some solid PT skills and (b) the ability to deliver a PT session is a great plus if not a requirement if you want to collaborate on bigger projects where there may be separate people doing just the sound post, maybe even split up into dialogue mixing, SFX, etc.
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:26 AM   #25
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Holy crap, now I really feel like an amateur

Very impressive! And looks like a nice apartment too, must be an inspiring environment to work in.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:16 AM   #26
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With an imdb credit, no less.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:49 AM   #27
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With an imdb credit, no less.
Actually, I have one too. Though I have no idea what that project is, they must have used one of my CC-BY tracks.
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:21 AM   #28
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Thanks for the detailed post, cerendir. I'd like to add a few quick tips & recommendations:

- When making an orchestral template, write it down either on paper or type it out in a text document. Draw out the signal paths for the MIDI signals as well as the audio signals. This makes it much easier to conceptualize the template as a whole.

- Consider using less tracks in REAPER (or whatever sequencer) and use Bank/Program Change entries to switch between articulations.
Less tracks means less CPU, and that's important when you want low audio buffers (ASIO, etc.)

- Color your tracks differently, then in the MIDI Editor, color Notes & CCs by track so you can tell what MIDI events are on what track. This is extremely useful with more complex orchestrations.

I made a REAPER color template centered around orchestral instruments if anyone is interested:
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/8345/REAPER...20-%20EDIT.RPP
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Old 04-20-2015, 02:55 PM   #29
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Hey mikeroephonics, thanks for your tips!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
- When making an orchestral template, write it down either on paper or type it out in a text document. Draw out the signal paths for the MIDI signals as well as the audio signals. This makes it much easier to conceptualize the template as a whole.
Actually, I did. At least when I started setting up this template. Since then, a lot of things have been added and in terms of routing it *is* a bit confusing in places. So good call there, I would definitely need to sit down and update that document.

Quote:
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- Consider using less tracks in REAPER (or whatever sequencer) and use Bank/Program Change entries to switch between articulations.
Less tracks means less CPU, and that's important when you want low audio buffers (ASIO, etc.)
Well, I'm not a fan of keyswitching as was mentioned in my post. Definitely good advice generally speaking I guess, but I've never noticed that midi tracks in REAPER amount to any significant amount of extra CPU load. With 360 tracks in this project, most of them midi, I only go above 55% CPU during those big moments when there's a lot of stuff playing. And this on an ageing AMD quad core. So I guess it depends a lot on what sampler/samples you're using.

Quote:
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- Color your tracks differently, then in the MIDI Editor, color Notes & CCs by track so you can tell what MIDI events are on what track. This is extremely useful with more complex orchestrations.
I wasn't even aware you could do that Great tip, I'll look into it!
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:32 PM   #30
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Holy crap, now I really feel like an amateur

Very impressive! And looks like a nice apartment too, must be an inspiring environment to work in.
LOL, thanks. It's nice but not really high end by any measure, e.g., it's not even properly treated acoustically, although that said, in a room this big (1,400 square feet, 15' high ceilings) it's not really an issue. There's a huge bass buildup if you walk up the staircase to my mezzanine level where I have my bed, but then again, who cares, I don't mix in my bedroom, I mix in the sweet spot.

And there are also acoustical issues, notably sound coming from the outside (it's right across from a freeway, the double pane glass is very effective but there's a constant low noise which emits from the walls). And the floors are beautiful hardwood, over 100 years old (this used to be an old Cotton Mill) which is noisy by nature. So no band practice anywhere, no drums, no electric guitars ... but that's ok with me, and I live on the top floor. Before moving in I actually put in heavy vinyl sound proofing material, and a laminated floor on top of that. Shit load of work, hopefully it pays off in reducing noise for my neighbors below (never did an A/B test, frankly, and never had any complaints from anyone).

This is the building, by the way, the Cotton Mill Studios in Oakland. Used to be the largest cotton mill in the Western United States (west of Mississippi), converted to artist lofts in the 2000s. My neighbors are painters, photographers, jewelry makers, carpenters. They organize regular art shows too, totally cool place to live. And one of the few affordable placed in the Bay Area. San Francisco is now officially the most expensive city on earth to rent an apartment.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/cotton-mill-...-lofts-oakland
https://www.facebook.com/f3cottonmill
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:31 PM   #31
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Thank you Cerendir, the article is really interesting and very inspiring, and I love your work! Thank you for this post

(Also, thanks for the follow on soundcloud, it's very appreciated!)
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:15 PM   #32
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Thank you Cerendir, the article is really interesting and very inspiring, and I love your work! Thank you for this post

(Also, thanks for the follow on soundcloud, it's very appreciated!)
Thanks Rufus
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:20 PM   #33
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On a semi-related note, I have created a new skin for sfz+. I figured that if I'm going to keep staring at that thing, it would be nice if it looked a little nicer and more modern.



Still in need of some tweaks, but almost done.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:34 PM   #34
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IS SFZ+ even available anymore? I can't seem to find a functioning link.
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:59 PM   #35
cerendir
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Originally Posted by ReaperMadness View Post
IS SFZ+ even available anymore? I can't seem to find a functioning link.
I don't know, isn't it still available from Cakewalk?

Edit: ah, I see now that CW have revamped their store, and my login credentials aren't working anymore. Searching the store doesn't turn anything up :/
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Last edited by cerendir; 04-24-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:21 PM   #36
ReaperMadness
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Too bad for me.

Mattias - You'll like this. While searching in vain for SFZ+, I came across this quote:

"I'm not sure if many people still use soundfonts but I still have some unfininshed songs that use soundfonts."


It's dated June, 2007.
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