Old 04-02-2013, 01:50 PM   #1
plgrmsprgrs
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Default VSTi Violin to Fiddle Tips?

Just wondering if anyone has some tricks to make a vsti violin sound more like a fiddle. Seems most sampled violins lean toward symphonic applications and I wanted to try something more folky/rootsy. I'll probably be using the violin from Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra, something from Sampletank 2, or possibly something that runs in Kontakt Player if I can find it.

Kyle
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:41 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Just wondering if anyone has some tricks to make a vsti violin sound more like a fiddle. Seems most sampled violins lean toward symphonic applications and I wanted to try something more folky/rootsy. I'll probably be using the violin from Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra, something from Sampletank 2, or possibly something that runs in Kontakt Player if I can find it.

Kyle
I thought it was the same instrument, it's a violin when you play orchestral or chamber music and a fiddle when you play folk music! The style decides what the instrument is called. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:00 PM   #3
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Exactly - that's my point. The technique is different from playing the instrument for orchestra. So, I'm asking if anyone has experience successfully mimicking a fiddle player. Seems to me there might be a midi programming trick or two that suggest those characteristics. Maybe not, but it seemed a worthwhile question.

Kyle
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #4
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You need a real player. You aren't going to be able to make double stops sound like anything other than an uptight orchestral player. And you'll be hard pressed to sequence riffs. A lot of 'blue' notes that just aren't there (easily) with a VSTi.

Loops are your best option.

http://www.efiddler.com/

I used some gypsy styled riffs from him and I think it turned out well. I simply manipulated the loops on the timeline.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:20 PM   #5
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I thought it was the same instrument, it's a violin when you play orchestral or chamber music and a fiddle when you play folk music! The style decides what the instrument is called. Maybe I'm wrong.
Yes, they are two completely different things, with completely different approaches as far as how they're played and also recorded.

First of all to get a fiddle sound you need a solo violin, and secondly it needs to be recorded with articulations that are played for a fiddle style.

Fiddle is a lot harder to capture than regular violin. I've still not seen a really good sampled fiddle although there might be some decent ones out there. Even so I'll bet you'd have to keep it pretty simple.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:09 PM   #6
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There is a sampletank expansion called Country and folk rhythms, it has some fiddle style loops and i think they can be striped back to the articulations that make up the parts for the loops, if that makes sense

I have it and remember trying to use it on some songs a few years back when i bought it but i wasn't very sucessfull.
But i didn't really understand midi as well as i do now.

It could be worth a look if nothing better shows upm i've seen it for cheap, like $10 from sounds on demand or esoundz ? somewhere like that .


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Old 04-02-2013, 07:34 PM   #7
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There is a sampletank expansion called Country and folk rhythms, it has some fiddle style loops and i think they can be striped back to the articulations that make up the parts for the loops, if that makes sense

I have it and remember trying to use it on some songs a few years back when i bought it but i wasn't very sucessfull.
But i didn't really understand midi as well as i do now.

It could be worth a look if nothing better shows upm i've seen it for cheap, like $10 from sounds on demand or esoundz ? somewhere like that .


Cheers
I actually have that expansion pack and forgot all about it. I'll have a look and see I can work with those loops. Thanks for reminding me!

Hey - how did that headphone mod work for you?

Kyle
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:53 AM   #8
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Hey - how did that headphone mod work for you?

Kyle
I tried it but i ended up leaving them stock.

I wasn't keen on the M50s at all when i first got them but they grew on me and now I actually like the contrast between the ath M50's and my AKG K271s.

I use the M50s for tracking and the 271s for mix decisions.
I also find the M50s much nicer to just listen to music on.


Let us know if the country and folk pack does the job for you, i'm very interested to find out how it goes.


Cheers
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #9
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Coming off of what JAMES said . . .

Ideally, you would do best to have an actual fiddle VSTi.

However, No. 1 thing is the fiddle BRIDGE is much 'flatter', lessor arch to it. That's what allows for all those easily done, droning double stops he was getting about. Next, you want to learn to mimic a fiddle in other ways. They use a load of guitar techniques/tricks -- pulloff licks, hammerons, slides. Yes, they do play with blue notes a good bit. Quarter tones too. Using a keyboard controller? Fortunately, it ain't Paganini, folks. Fiddle tends to be a good bit simpler, more like '50s guitar leads as opposed to later guitar playing. The trick fiddlers employ is to make things sound like much more than they really are, if you follow.

If you have a truly fine Violin VSTi or samples, you ought to work with your EQ, as fiddles were rarely very expensive instruments, as opposed to pro starter violins, which begin about $5k these days I think and go way up from that price point, thus we don't expect such exquisite tone from a fiddle. I'd 'roughen' it up, try to pull out a touch of raw. If you've ever heard a violinist rip some fiddle licks on a Strad, you'd know immediately the sound was very out of whack.

Good luck with this, sounds a worthy challenge! Cheers!
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #10
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Default Give Gypsy a listen...

I'd seriously give the East West "Gypsy" library a listen. The demos on their website are more of a Flamenco/Gypsy vibe, but go through the demos and just listen to the articulations on their Gypsy fiddle. There are 24 keyswitched articulations and some of them are amazingly "fiddle" like. The samples are recorded close up and not at all like their orchestra violins. There are short up/down bowings with the bow bouncing on the strings type stuff. I personally LOVE the mod-wheel patch where you can play double stops and get some real portmento action happening. Most of the demos there are not what you are looking for style wise, but like I said, just search out the fiddle articulations and ignore the rest. Here's a link >> East West Gypsy
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:57 PM   #11
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Coming off of what JAMES said . . .

Ideally, you would do best to have an actual fiddle VSTi.

However, No. 1 thing is the fiddle BRIDGE is much 'flatter', lessor arch to it. That's what allows for all those easily done, droning double stops he was getting about.
How flat the bridge is is a matter of personal taste for fiddlers or violinists,and has nothing to do with double stops,as playing two strings at once is always possible,no matter how rounded the bridge.

Quote:
Next, you want to learn to mimic a fiddle in other ways. They use a load of guitar techniques/tricks -- pulloff licks, hammerons, slides.
Fiddlers almost never (or very rarely) use "pulloffs" - (left hand pizzicato),and certainly less than classical violinists might.
Hammer-ons are pointless on a fiddle,and I don't think I ever heard anyone attempt them,as next to no volume is possible,so it's not a fiddle technique.
Slides,yeah,but I wouldnt say they're using a "guitar" technique/trick.

Quote:
Using a keyboard controller? Fortunately, it ain't Paganini, folks. Fiddle tends to be a good bit simpler, more like '50s guitar leads as opposed to later guitar playing.
Yeah,basic fiddle playing is a good bit simpler than Paganini.
But there are thousands of talented fiddle players - and many classical players,even soloists,would struggle to get the feel of the rhythm,or imitate the techniques of a good fiddler.

Quote:
The trick fiddlers employ is to make things sound like much more than they really are, if you follow.
You mean they use technique.

Quote:
If you have a truly fine Violin VSTi or samples, you ought to work with your EQ, as fiddles were rarely very expensive instruments, as opposed to pro starter violins, which begin about $5k these days I think and go way up from that price point, thus we don't expect such exquisite tone from a fiddle. I'd 'roughen' it up, try to pull out a touch of raw.
There's truth in this,but it depends how rough and ropey you'd like your fiddle VST to sound.
In a lot of cases,fiddlers do have a thin nasal sound,often due to cheap instruments and basic technique (and sometimes steel strings).
But maybe the biggest reason a fiddle doesn't sound like a violin is also down to the neccessity of fiddle technique - lots of rhythmic and percussive short strokes - and not solely the mellowness of the instrument.

I've heard thousands of violins up close - some of the mellowest (useless as a classical soloist's violin) were reasonably priced "fiddles",and some of the harshest for fiddle style were very responsive "classical violins".That exquisite tone has a lot to do with the long style of note being pulled,and of course the technique.

But Yehudi Menuin playing double stop cajun stuff on his million dollar strad wouldn't sound smoother than a good pro fiddler.

Sorry a lot of this post is slightly OT -
but I just thought I'd defend the fiddling style a bit.

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Old 04-04-2013, 08:05 AM   #12
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Default Its technique..

Been playing and listening to violin / fiddle music for 50 plus years so gotta jump in here.. It's going to be really hard to get an authentic fiddle sound from a vst, period..

A lot of the defining sound of the "fiddle" (its actually just a violin) come from the subtle intonation differences in the notes. A classically trained violinist would not play "out of tune" on single notes or double stops. These notes can be very expressive though, just like the subtle bending of a blues guitar note. Especially in the double stops where one note might be close to perfectly in tune but the other note is actually sliding up into pitch.. Very hard to do this on a vst.. Ever heard a good pedal steel vsti? Probably not, for the same reason. A lot of "fiddlers" also play kinda out of tune anyway. It IS part of the sound. Someone like Mark O'Connor on the other hand, uses great authentic fiddle technique and plays dead nuts in tune. That is the exception though and not the rule.. Gypsy stuff is another thing entirely, and much harder to pull off..

Fiddling is really not my primary style, but if you need a couple tracks done I would be happy to do them for you, if you send my a guide track or small reaper project with backup stems..

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Old 04-04-2013, 08:12 AM   #13
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How flat the bridge is is a matter of personal taste for fiddlers or violinists,and has nothing to do with double stops,as playing two strings at once is always possible,no matter how rounded the bridge.


Fiddlers almost never (or very rarely) use "pulloffs" - (left hand pizzicato),and certainly less than classical violinists might.
Hammer-ons are pointless on a fiddle,and I don't think I ever heard anyone attempt them,as next to no volume is possible,so it's not a fiddle technique.
Slides,yeah,but I wouldnt say they're using a "guitar" technique/trick.


Yeah,basic fiddle playing is a good bit simpler than Paganini.
But there are thousands of talented fiddle players - and many classical players,even soloists,would struggle to get the feel of the rhythm,or imitate the techniques of a good fiddler.


You mean they use technique.


There's truth in this,but it depends how rough and ropey you'd like your fiddle VST to sound.
In a lot of cases,fiddlers do have a thin nasal sound,often due to cheap instruments and basic technique (and sometimes steel strings).
But maybe the biggest reason a fiddle doesn't sound like a violin is also down to the neccessity of fiddle technique - lots of rhythmic and percussive short strokes - and not solely the mellowness of the instrument.

I've heard thousands of violins up close - some of the mellowest (useless as a classical soloist's violin) were reasonably priced "fiddles",and some of the harshest for fiddle style were very responsive "classical violins".That exquisite tone has a lot to do with the long style of note being pulled,and of course the technique.

But Yehudi Menuin playing double stop cajun stuff on his million dollar strad wouldn't sound smoother than a good pro fiddler.

Sorry a lot of this post is slightly OT -
but I just thought I'd defend the fiddling style a bit.
Aye this...go listen to Natalie MacMaster or any of the Cape Breton-tradition fiddlers...simplistic it is not.

Scott
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:28 AM   #14
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Natalie MacMaster - now there's some fiddle playing!
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:48 AM   #15
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It is definitely a matter of playing "in style". I have had some success using the solo violin in Miroslav Philharmonik.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:30 AM   #16
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I got a fiddle (violin) for Christmas and, after trying and trying to make a VST sound like a fiddle, I've come to the conclusion that its a wash. Making a fiddle sound like a fiddle is just as difficult as making a VST sound like one. My neighbors think I'm killing cats.




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Old 04-05-2013, 04:44 AM   #17
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I got a fiddle (violin) for Christmas and, after trying and trying to make a VST sound like a fiddle, I've come to the conclusion that its a wash. Making a fiddle sound like a fiddle is just as difficult as making a VST sound like one. My neighbors think I'm killing cats.
I'm ready to kill some cats to :thumbsup:
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:04 AM   #18
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Fiddling is really not my primary style, but if you need a couple tracks done I would be happy to do them for you, if you send my a guide track or small reaper project with backup stems..

John
That's as good a solution to VSTi limitations as you could hope for... and typical of the generosity of this forum.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:09 AM   #19
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this guy can fiddle.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:41 AM   #20
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Viscofishy, the flatness of the bridge has lots to do with the ease of double stops. Use your brain a minute. In fact, I've watched one or two deaden an adjacent string and do a double stop using the next one over. In rarer cases, they will even play three strings together. Yes, on fiddles, the ability exists to play actual chords.

The rest of your refutation is incorrect also. Look, I don't know where you get your information from, but I've played face-to-face in groups with these people. A GF from years back was violin chair in the Buffalo Symphony Orchestra, and, yes, she had a fiddle too. I've had the whole thing demo'd and explained to me on several occasions. Besides, YouTube is full of this stuff, just look and watch closely sometime -- it's all there.

You also wrote "Yes, fiddle playing is a good bit simpler than Paganini." Here you're parroting me for effect -- your tactics exposed for all to note.

And you respond to my, 'They try to make it sound like more than it really is,' with 'You mean they use technique.' Not exactly. I meant what I said. You then go on taking issue with remarks I haven't even made! You qualify yourself as a non-fiddle or non-violinist. Also, you admit to never having played with any, never having actually known any, yet you claim to have heard thousands of them? Thousands. I don't buy it one bit. Your refutations are nonsense, and you simply don't know what you are talking about. You make a good effort to sound intelligent, though.

What IS your problem? Well, whatever it is, go take it out on someone else. Go on over to KVR or maybe the Les Paul forums where they pull that stuff all the time.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:54 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plgrmsprgrs View Post
Just wondering if anyone has some tricks to make a vsti violin sound more like a fiddle.
Yes there's a great Cajun Section trick I use.
Take a Violin Sample and use 2 or 3 instances.
Now go to the Pitch Bend and use a positve and negative value 1.
Repeat this on the 2nd instance with a value of 2.
Since I use polyphonic and monophonic Legato techniques of LASS Lite, I have the phrasing down but slight PBend movements to taste will get you that
Zydeco/Cajun/Creole sound.
I also use it to do some Jean Luc Ponty Mavavishnu stuff with a Moog 12 Stage Phaser and DSP Expression Pedal Wah-Wah.

Try it on what you use it might work

I have to do Classic Rock Tribute stuff where lots of ELO, Bowie, Crimson, Yes used Melotron and Orchestral Strings, so LASS Lite gets me just about everywhere w/o being a snippety perfectionist. As long as the licks and chops are accurate it works pretty well

Good Luck
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:47 AM   #22
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Viscofishy, the flatness of the bridge has lots to do with the ease of double stops. Use your brain a minute. In fact, I've watched one or two deaden an adjacent string and do a double stop using the next one over. In rarer cases, they will even play three strings together. Yes, on fiddles, the ability exists to play actual chords.
I was responding to your explanation that "the No1 thing is the fiddle BRIDGE is much flatter".As I said,that's not true.Whether some fiddlers play 3 strings at once is besides the point.Some classical players play chords.Ole Bull was famous for it.That doesn't make a flatter bridge the No1 thing for either classical or fiddle style.
In short,it's the kind of myth people who know little or nothing would bother to repeat.

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The rest of your refutation is incorrect also. Look, I don't know where you get your information from, but I've played face-to-face in groups with these people. A GF from years back was violin chair in the Buffalo Symphony Orchestra, and, yes, she had a fiddle too. I've had the whole thing demo'd and explained to me on several occasions. Besides, YouTube is full of this stuff, just look and watch closely sometime -- it's all there.
I get my information from years of interest,and from the fact that I play the fiddle.Also from repairing fiddles and carving bridges,and being some way through making my own fiddle.I've been interested in violin/fiddle construction for years.This is my own fiddle,made by my friend :



Here's my octave violin :



I often spent weekends talking about fiddles with him,and helping on actual fiddles in progress.Another friend made one of Ally Bain's fiddles.
Neither of these guys has ever flattened a bridge because a fiddle player was buying the instrument.

I've read Edward Heron Allen's "Violin Making as it Was and Is" a few times over,along with many other technical books and plans of old makers,and internet sources like the Catgut Acoustical Society,and the work of pioneers like Carleen Hutchins.

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Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
You also wrote "Yes, fiddle playing is a good bit simpler than Paganini." Here you're parroting me for effect -- your tactics exposed for all to note.
There wouldn't be much point in a "tactic" if it wasn't meant to be noticed.
Your tone was clearly to make the fiddle seem to be less worthy than classical violin,or why would you even say "it aint Paganini,folks"?...or say silly things like
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
The trick fiddlers employ is to make things sound like much more than they really are, if you follow.
What if I'd to make the same generalisation about guitars

"Let's face it folks,the electric guitar is hardly Segovia!!The trick electric guitarists employ is to make things sound like much more than they really are....if you follow."

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Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
And you respond to my, 'They try to make it sound like more than it really is,' with 'You mean they use technique.' Not exactly. I meant what I said.
See above ^^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
You then go on taking issue with remarks I haven't even made! You qualify yourself as a non-fiddle or non-violinist. Also, you admit to never having played with any, never having actually known any, yet you claim to have heard thousands of them? Thousands. I don't buy it one bit. Your refutations are nonsense, and you simply don't know what you are talking about. You make a good effort to sound intelligent, though.
Where do I classify myself as a non-fiddle or non violinist?
Where do I admit to never having "played with any"?
You made that up.As for knowing what I'm talking about,see above ^^^^

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What IS your problem? Well, whatever it is, go take it out on someone else. Go on over to KVR or maybe the Les Paul forums where they pull that stuff all the time.
My problem is that someone who knows so little is prepared to say so much.

Last edited by viscofisy; 04-05-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:39 AM   #23
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I'm not playing this game with you.

Lay your average fiddle down. Put a regular violin right next to it. What is/are the obvious difference(s)?

THE BRIDGE.

You want to pick apart my words, twist a little (e.g., I said playing fiddle was not like playing Paganini, but I never said it was all simple), put words in my mouth (I said I've even seen some play 3 strings at once -- you said some classical people have done that also -- that earns you a big F'ing SO WHAT, SHERLOCK?), then you go for it, laddie boy!

But you really do belong over at KVR. Your picking apart every comment alone is exactly their first mode of attack. You'll do well over there, I promise. BTW, no mention AT ALL from you that you are a violin player until just now? Quite curious. You only said you've seen thousands of players. Sorry, it doesn't add up. I'm sure you're full of tales.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:08 PM   #24
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Ole Bull, a famous violinist 1810-1880, from Norway, was known for making his bridge very flat.
And I believed he sometimes played 4 strings at once.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:37 PM   #25
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Hey if I were you I'd put the song up on http://Kompoz.com and ask for someone to play fiddle, Enjoy, Andrew
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