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Old 02-29-2016, 08:23 AM   #1
heda
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Default Track's pan law works, but not send's pan law (FIXED)

REAPER 5.15, win7 x64

Example: A reasynth sine wave with a send to a "rec" track to illustrate the problem.

When changing the send's pan law it seems it doesn't affect the output.
Changing the track's pan law works as expected

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Old 02-29-2016, 09:21 AM   #2
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Edit.

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-29-2016 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 11:40 AM   #3
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I've tested some, the issue I see here is: when a track uses a newer balance mode (non-3.x-deprecated), the send pan law is always in "boost" mode...
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:09 PM   #4
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Ok. Just tested via phase inversion test again and it seems to work fine indeed.


See attached project (ReaSynth 1 = track pan law, ReaSynth 2 = send pan law).



But: Justin can you have a look at this project exampe too?

On playback start you can hear a short pop (sound bleed). On all repeating loops it doesn't happen (sound cancels out to -inf fine). Why that? Can this get fixed? FIXED (5.16rc1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-29-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
the send pan law is always in "boost" mode...
So the checkbox should be greyed out/disabled on the send panner!?

FIXED (5.20pre15)

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-05-2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Ok. Just tested via phase inversion test again and it seems to work fine indeed.
See attached project (ReaSynth 1 = track pan law, ReaSynth 2 = send pan law).
But in your project, ReaSynth 2 track pan also has -6.0 in pan law. The thing is if track's pan law is at 0.0 and send's pan law at -6.0 it seems it is acting as 0.0

more tests https://i.imgur.com/0EWxgok.gifv

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
On playback start you can hear a short pop (sound bleed). On all repeating loops it doesn't happen (sound cancels out to -inf fine). Why that? Can this get fixed?
Yes I also hear the pop. It doesn't happen if you move the items a bit to the right and start playing from the beginning. But if you start playing at the beginning o the items there is the small pop too. So it seems there is always a small pop at the beginning of playback.
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I've tested some, the issue I see here is: when a track uses a newer balance mode (non-3.x-deprecated), the send pan law is always in "boost" mode...
even if it is always in boost mode, it should change if you change the value -6.0 to 0.0
and it doesn't.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
But in your project, ReaSynth 2 track pan also has -6.0 in pan law. The thing is if track's pan law is at 0.0 and send's pan law at -6.0 it seems it is acting as 0.0

more tests https://i.imgur.com/0EWxgok.gifv
Oops, you're right. Forgot to set ReaSynth 2 to 0dB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
Yes I also hear the pop. It doesn't happen if you move the items a bit to the right and start playing from the beginning. But if you start playing at the beginning o the items there is the small pop too. So it seems there is always a small pop at the beginning of playback.
Thanks for confirming!

FIXED (5.16rc1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-29-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:01 PM   #9
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example
new balance mode and changing send pan law doesn't affect loudness at all.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:03 PM   #10
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now the same in deprecated mode.

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Old 02-29-2016, 01:14 PM   #11
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Why do the send panners have "boost" enabled by default?

Attached project with "ReaSynth 2" track pan set to boost. Nulls out against the send pan on "ReaSynth 1". But why the default "boost" on the send pan?

FIXED (5.20pre15)

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-05-2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:34 PM   #12
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@heda: do you really need touch the send pan law setting at all?

I think we're maybe just confused about it. Personally I'm setting it at track level and the send is following fine. So I just forget about the send panner. I guess there is a good reason why it's implemented this way.


The playback start pop is more interesting to me. FIXED (5.16rc1)

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-29-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
example
new balance mode and changing send pan law doesn't affect loudness at all.
Because it has boost pans enabled by default as Justin said and you're actally not moving the send pan fader (it is fixed at center, thus no change in sound because of the boost default) but the track pan fader.
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Because it has boost pans enabled by default as Justin said and you're actally not moving the send pan fader (it is fixed at center, thus no change in sound because of the boost default) but the track pan fader.
even if boost is always there, the shape of how the volume changes across the panning should change. Boost only adds to all range of the panning a constant value. the loudness curve should be parallel and higher but the shape should change. being horizontal at -3.0. Or at least that's how I understand it.

Well. I agree I am not very concerned because I've never used different pan law for sends. I'll just use the track's pan law. But if the functionality of having different pan law for each send is there and it should work. I don't know an example for using it. Maybe useful in surround projects? I don't know.
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
even if boost is always there, the shape of how the volume changes across the panning should change.
"Boost" doesn't give any change in level with the fader at center. And in your examle the Send panner is at center. You're moving the Track panner (envelope), not the Send panner (envelope).


Still not understanding myself why the send panner is in boost mode by default at all.


FIXED (5.20pre15)

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-05-2016 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
"Boost" doesn't give any change in level with the fader at center. And in your examle the Send panner is at center. You're moving the Track panner (envelope), not the Send panner (envelope).


Still not understanding myself why the send panner is in boost mode by default at all.
ah. that's the key... so the send's pan law affects only to send's pan. ok. I was confused because the send says "Post-fader (post pan)"

But the boost thing.. yes.. I think it should not always boost it. But I'm afraid this won't change because it would break compatibility with all previous saved projects.

ok.. thank you for everything.
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Still not understanding myself why the send panner is in boost mode by default at all.
It's a bug in the newer pan modes, which is likely from the initial 4.0 release where the pan modes were added.

It is trivial to fix, however fixing it will break old projects, so we have to fix it very carefully (converting old projects, and saving new projects that have boost disabled in such a way that old versions of REAPER warn).
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Old 02-29-2016, 02:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
ah. that's the key... so the send's pan law affects only to send's pan. ok. I was confused because the send says "Post-fader (post pan)"
Yep, the controls are not the same. Separate faders/envelopes.
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
It's a bug in the newer pan modes, which is likely from the initial 4.0 release where the pan modes were added.

It is trivial to fix, however fixing it will break old projects, so we have to fix it very carefully (converting old projects, and saving new projects that have boost disabled in such a way that old versions of REAPER warn).
Ok, thanks for fixing!


Btw: Would be nice if "Gain Compensation (boost pans)" checkbox could get disabled/greyed out when selecting 0dB to avoid additional confusion. Thanks!
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
On playback start you can hear a short pop (sound bleed). On all repeating loops it doesn't happen (sound cancels out to -inf fine). Why that? Can this get fixed?
Looking in to this, thanks!
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:16 PM   #21
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Cool, thank you too!
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:44 PM   #22
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The start-of-playback glitch will be fixed for 5.16, and the newer-pan-mode-send always having boost enabled will be fixed for 5.20.
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:50 PM   #23
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Great, thank you!
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:59 PM   #24
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I didn't want to make you discover indirectly two bugs like that... heh but thank you And sorry for the trouble
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
I didn't want to make you discover indirectly two bugs like that... heh but thank you And sorry for the trouble
Thanks for spotting these (and thank you dstruct too
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Old 02-29-2016, 04:35 PM   #26
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No problem! Engine just getting better and better, nice
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Old 03-01-2016, 02:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Btw: Would be nice if "Gain Compensation (boost pans)" checkbox could get disabled/greyed out when selecting 0dB to avoid additional confusion. Thanks!
Or maybe this one would be even better:

Make "Gain Compensation (boost pans)" also checkable with 0dB setting in Project settings as default.

Overriding default track pan then would have it checked by default too (no need to enable it for each track).
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:46 PM   #28
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FIXED (5.20pre15)
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