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Old 04-05-2015, 03:17 PM   #121
Lawrence
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Anywho, back on topic...

I would very much like to do what I've done in every daw audio editor I've ever used full time, edit automation envelopes across multiple tracks. After trying many different things over the last 8 years I still don't see it as being possible here so maybe I'm just too dumb to use Reaper.

It's easy in Cubase, PT, & Studio One, the other 3 workstations I have experience with. If someone can tell me the workaround or custom action for that, much appreciated. Help a ReaTard.

How do I grab automation envelopes across 5-10+ tracks and edit their values all at once (a common edit task actually)? Thanks.

P.S. I'd also like to randomly split midi in arrange and not ever split the notes, which changes the musical performance. Thanks.
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:21 PM   #122
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Anywho, back on topic...

I would very much like to do what I've done in every daw audio editor I've ever used full time, edit automation envelopes across multiple tracks. After trying many different things over the last 8 years I still don't see it as being possible here so maybe I'm just too dumb to use Reaper.

It's easy in Cubase, PT, & Studio One, the other 3 workstations I have experience with. If someone can tell me the workaround or custom action for that, much appreciated. Help a ReaTard.

How do I grab automation envelopes across 5-10+ tracks and edit their values all at once (a common edit task actually)? Thanks.
To give you a workaround, you need to tell me what you need to do that for.

I mean, doesn't it sound redundant to do the same thing to many tracks?
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:23 PM   #123
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To give you a workaround, you need to tell me what you need to do that for.

I mean, doesn't it sound redundant to do the same thing to many tracks?
No. I might be mixing tons of audio tracks where not only is there bus automation for the groups but individual automation on the child tracks. It's very often the case that I'll select envelopes for multiple (random) child tracks and trim or gain them all at once, directly with the mouse, pre-bus.

If nobody actually needed to do that it wouldn't be possible anywhere.
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:28 PM   #124
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No. I might be mixing tons of audio tracks where not only is there bus automation for the groups but individual automation on the child tracks. It's very often the case that I'll select envelopes for multiple (random) child tracks and trim or gain them all at once, directly with the mouse, pre-bus.
Couldn't you use a VCA for that?
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:30 PM   #125
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Couldn't you use a VCA for that?
In some cases, sure, not all. What does that have to do with the inability to edit multiple automation envelopes on the timeline at the same time?

Do I have to list every single possible use case for that so you can try to explain case by case why I should be doing it another way? Or can we just agree that most major daws simply allow grabbing multiple envelopes and moving them, like any other selected objects, clip gain, whatever?

Is that an unreasonable request? (just asking)

Example:

Me: I would really love to have something like Reaper's snapshots in Studio One, Reaper's snapshots are great.
Guy: Can't you just use "Versions" for that?
Me: Sure, but snapshots are way better. Is that ok with you? If you don't want them, ignore the conversation?

I'm not "unhappy", but snapshots would make my mixing life a bit easier... since I've already had them for the last 15 years on my digital console.

I guess we don't need PT's Trim automation mode either (something you asked for IIRC) since we can just work around it.

At any rate, apologies for my part in helping take this down the toilet.

Last edited by Lawrence; 04-05-2015 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:08 PM   #126
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The constructive path is the non-emotional & objective path. If a user says... "I would really like for Reaper to do X and because it's not currently possible, and/or the workaround is a hassle, it can be mildly frustrating...", that doesn't actually mean he or she is unhappy. It's more often just projected that way by others.
Each time I mention guy B you start talking about guy A. They both exist (sometimes en masse), there is no score card that can be reliably judged to lean it one way or the other; it's all emotion and being anecdotal. There are...

Whiners
Constructive criticizers
Fanboys
Constructive do gooders

I see many get immediately frustrated the moment someone gives them a workaround, seemingly offended that all they got was a workaround and annoyed that the person helping doesn't see it or understand it immediately. I'm sure I can scroll up and find that in this thread very quickly.

I mean for example, Kenny asked you a simple sincere question:

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Couldn't you use a VCA for that?
Which resulted in:

Quote:
Do I have to list every single possible use case for that so you can try to explain case by case why I should be doing it another way? Or can we just agree that most major daws simply allow grabbing multiple envelopes and moving them, like any other selected objects, clip gain, whatever?

Is that an unreasonable request? (just asking)
I see an annoyance there simply by his asking that question while trying to help. YMMV.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:12 PM   #127
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Lawrence ...

Apart from the thankfully small minority of people who are aggressive, intemperate, deliberately provocative in their language and just plain rude (of course I don't include you in that group ) I suspect that a fair few of these issues arise because of misunderstanding rather than ill intent.

I've seen this happen more than a few times:

Person A makes a suggestion that they would like to see such and such a feature in REAPER that is in some other DAW.

Person B replies with a suggested workaround or best alternative method, not to decry or belittle that person's request but to help them, in the absence of that feature, get by without it.

Person C jumps in and accuses Person B of being a fanboy.

Then it's all downhill from there ...
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:24 PM   #128
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I see many get immediately frustrated the moment someone gives them a workaround, seemingly offended that all they got was a workaround and annoyed that the person helping doesn't see it or understand it immediately. I'm sure I can scroll up and find that in this thread very quickly.
Sure. I don't mind workarounds that work, but yes, it can be a little frustrating to get workarounds that don't actually really solve the entire problem.

Like Kenny correctly suggested, *some* of those cases can be solved with VCA's, but some of them can't, so it's a half measure. It results in having to explain - every single potential use case - so the person attempting to demonstrate that it can already be done another way can give you workarounds for every single use case... instead of the person just simply saying...

"Yes. It would be nice to be able to move all selected envelopes like every other major daw." Is that really so hard to say? Did I even imply it was a major issue for me?

Remember, that FR is 9 years old. VCA's are about 3 months old and not even officially released yet.

Say "yes" to a reasonable request and *then* (if you know how) also tell me how to deal with it in the interim? Don't just always start with the latter while completely ignoring the potential value of the former?

And you know me well enough to know that I actually can see "me". I know I have some fault here (guilty as charged). But for anyone trying to help me with that (and thanks a lot for that) did a single one of them even admit to or even agree with the potential value of the other thing?

And for balance, I don't like that (not being able to do that) about Vegas either. It just happens to be one of those things Reaper took from Vegas that's not in line with the rest of the modern daw world, that's all.

Last edited by Lawrence; 04-05-2015 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:37 PM   #129
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But for anyone trying to help me with that (and thanks a lot for that) did a single one of them even admit to the potential value of the other thing?
I understand, but that just doesn't sound like fanboyism to me. I think that it honestly has far more to do with people's feelings than it does anything else. The people helping want to feel like the time they took to respond was valued and the people providing the criticism want to feel like they made the product better. For the genuine posters that is, for the actual fanboys and whiners... they can just suck it.

Everything else is just forum infighting the more I think about it.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:42 PM   #130
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I understand, but that just doesn't sound like fanboyism to me. I think that it honestly has far more to do with people's feelings than it does anything else. The people helping want to feel like the time they took to respond was valued and the person providing the criticism wants to feel like they made the product better. For the genuine posters that is, the actual fanboys and whiners can suck it.

Everything else is just forum infighting the more I think about it.
Maybe. It (maybe incorrectly perceived on my part, granted) seems to me that the tendency is to try to prove Reaper can do something even if it really can't, not so much to just support reasonable requests.

Again, my first inclination as a power user of anything would be to say...

"Yes, that would be really great to have, Voted. In the interim, maybe try this workaround to ease some of the discomfort of not having it."

I can obviously get by without it in Reaper having already done so for over 8 years. I'd prefer not to, but (of course) we users don't get to make those decisions.

Last edited by Lawrence; 04-05-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:48 PM   #131
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is to try to prove Reaper can do something even if it really can't
Obviously I can only speak for myself but each time I've given someone a workaround I've done it with the idea of wanting to show it can fit the requested need, otherwise, I'd never have responded. It would be silly of me to give someone half a workaround with the intent it is a full one if I knew that up front.

When I already know it isn't a full workaround, I try to include such in my reply... "This won't get you exactly what you need but there is this..." And I do that because I want the person to explore it anyway (if they haven't yet) because many times it leads to... "Your idea wasn't what I wanted but it gave me an idea..."

^I see that happen all time and am a little taken back that some get so annoyed at people genuinely trying to help them.
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:53 PM   #132
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Obviously I can only speak for me
Well, you obviously don't fall into the category I was speaking about.

Among the Reaper "power users" who have been around a really, really long time... the only two regular always objective (and accurate) critics are Airon and ED. They are two of it's biggest fans or supporters and also two of it's most vocal critics when criticism is deserved.

As it should be. Those two guys (along with MBN of course who is probably the best Reaper beta tester ever ) are probably the most constructive user voices on the entire forum... because their love for it doesn't ever mute their (accurate) criticisms.

I am obviously not a Reaper power user.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:34 PM   #133
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Wow. Don't know how I became a Reaper fanboi.

My point is simply that there are workarounds. And when you come from other DAWs , you don't want workarounds. You want the same thing.

And I hate to be so blunt but that's simply your problem.

Reaper (as far as I can tell) was not created to imitate other DAWs. It has a very different aesthetic. And I've struggled with it along the way and I still do.

Finding the right action can be a bitch when you don't know the right wording they used. Did they say "remove, delete or clear" for example. But when you find the option you were looking for. The one you didn't even know existed. You then have that "aha" moment. And you begin to understand why it was done that way and NOT the way other DAWs did.

As I said, it's not perfect. Some things are better in other DAWs. But I can gaurantee you haven't tried every different workaround or method of achieving your goal. And only then can you say that DAW X does it better. And still it might only be better for you. Not definitively better for everyone.

As I've said many times, REAPER struggles to find it's way because most people have come here from other DAWs. So they want REAPER to follow rather than lead. Or they just don't want to take the time to re-learn what they already know. And that's 100% understandable. It's not fun to find workarounds when you already know what you want.

But ask yourself this question. Would a user who has NEVER used another DAW want this feature? Most times the answer would be no.

And to get back this idea that my workaround doen't work in all cases. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe VCAs will only work sometimes and other times you can use a folder and other times you would use a bus. How does that make REAPER inferior?

Let's turn it around. Pro Tools and many other DAWs don't have folders. So if you want that functionality, you would need a workaround. And that workaround won't be the same in all cases.

We all do many different things. Is it bad that Folders don't do everything?

I'm also perplexed at why anyone cares what other people's motivations are. You're insulted because I didn't first "praise" your FR before offering you a solution?

My only motivation is to help people use REAPER to it's full potential. Which is almost impossible when you consider the options. I really don't know what other motivation you'd think I have.
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:45 PM   #134
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The fact that those two are still around is surprising, there have been a lot of power users gone the way of the dodo because it is actually very hard to say "that isnt right" round here without being jumped on, its sad.
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:57 PM   #135
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There have been a lot of power users gone the way of the dodo because it is actually very hard to say "that isnt right" round here without being jumped on, its sad.
Yeah. That isn't right.
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:40 PM   #136
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Come on now, gpunk. It's hard to get away with saying anything negative, in any internet forum, until you've made a couple thousand posts. That seems to be human nature. And even after a couple thousand posts you're going to get pressure for a negative comment.

Nevertheless, you've been fearless from the very start bringing forward your version of Reaper's weaknesses. On an equivalent forum representing (some) competitor's software, you'd have been attacked mercilessly.

I think here, the problem of suppressing dissenters is less, but certainly not absent.

I appreciate Kenny's involvement in Reaper. It seems like he's getting more and more into it. But he's no fanboi.

A yankee, yes. A fanboi, no.
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:43 PM   #137
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I appreciate Kenny's involvement in Reaper. It seems like he's getting more and more into it. But he's no fanboi.
Exactly .... I could say that it seems at times that you daren't risk saying anything positive about Reaper without running the risk of being called a fanboi.

For pity's sake, can we have some balance?
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:17 PM   #138
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I think (I hope) the general feel is that when people like me give other options or workarounds that the development team would feel no need to add the feature that is requested.

Obviously, none of us knows what makes them choose a feature to develop.

And it's certainly NOT my intention for anyone to have their FR ignored.

The more the better.

But I do feel (and it has nothing to do with any suggestions in this thread) that people are quick to ask for something without figuring out how it can be done in REAPER already.

When I first started using REAPER, I had hundreds of ways to make it better. I probably can think of 3 that would really be needed by me today.

Thanks
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:08 PM   #139
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Anywho, back on topic...

I would very much like to do what I've done in every daw audio editor I've ever used full time, edit automation envelopes across multiple tracks. After trying many different things over the last 8 years I still don't see it as being possible here so maybe I'm just too dumb to use Reaper.

It's easy in Cubase, PT, & Studio One, the other 3 workstations I have experience with. If someone can tell me the workaround or custom action for that, much appreciated. Help a ReaTard.

How do I grab automation envelopes across 5-10+ tracks and edit their values all at once (a common edit task actually)? Thanks.
Now that I think about it, this is the most glaring omission in Reaper for me too. I had to write a script. So far just for volume envelopes. It lets me select the multiple tracks and scroll the volume envelopes (preserving the relative levels between them) up and down with shift-scrollwheel in the current time selection. Looks like I'll have to write a similar one for every type of envelope I'd want to do this with. It would be nice if Reaper caught up with this first though!
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:01 AM   #140
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Now that I think about it, this is the most glaring omission in Reaper for me too. I had to write a script. So far just for volume envelopes. It lets me select the multiple tracks and scroll the volume envelopes (preserving the relative levels between them) up and down with shift-scrollwheel in the current time selection. Looks like I'll have to write a similar one for every type of envelope I'd want to do this with. It would be nice if Reaper caught up with this first though!
Yes. It's not a major deal, none of it. People are making great albums in Reaper without it.

But some of those things actually do slow down your workflow a little bit so it would be nice [not mandatory, but nice, useful, better] to change some of it, like the automation lanes not physically moving or re-arranging at all? I'm pretty sure there is no workaround for that.
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:09 AM   #141
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Exactly .... I could say that it seems at times that you daren't risk saying anything positive about Reaper without running the risk of being called a fanboi.

For pity's sake, can we have some balance?
Kenny's not a fanboi imo.

Otoh, I'm not so sure he sequences a lot of midi in Reaper either so I'm not sure of his view that looking hard often finds a solution. He seems to be more of an audio guy.

But of course, I don't personally know Kenny so I might be wrong about that... but anyone [not him, but anyone] who actually thinks Reaper can accomplish the same midi editing tasks as Cubase or similar with actions and scripts is delusional. Reaper is a modern audio workstation doing both midi and audio and video so if a person is mostly doing audio they maybe shouldn't apply what might be more true for audio to everything else.

Cubase (and similar, Logic, whatever) are the standards for professional midi and of course everything else will try to duplicate some of their functionality because they are the standards for professional midi. The only reason not to do that is to do something better. PT and similar are the standards for pro audio editing so the same applies there in some cases.
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:49 PM   #142
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Exactly .... I could say that it seems at times that you daren't risk saying anything positive about Reaper without running the risk of being called a fanboi.

For pity's sake, can we have some balance?
You are kidding right ?
Have you not seen the amount of Reaper love threads that pop up every few days, people only get called fanboy when they act like one.
if Reaper cant do something you are a whiner or lazy because you dont know how to use the API, you really want balance for that nonsense ?

Lets be fair here, mention another DAW round here (you know the other bits of software that all came before Reaper and where most of its ideas come from) and you are some kind of pariah,you Really want balance for that haha

For the record, Reaper is mh main host, i have used all the others, i doubt i will ever go back, however i see no need to confess my love for Reaper and if something is poor in Reaper i have no problem stating it, that does not make me a whiner or lazy, it makes me honest (oh and when it comes to workarounds i invented a bunch of em haha, it has nothing to do with not using workarounds either)

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Old 04-06-2015, 02:15 PM   #143
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You are kidding right ?
Lets be fair here, mention another DAW round here (you know the other bits of software that all came before Reaper and where most of its ideas come from) and you are some kind of pariah
Emphasis mine

I think perhaps you exaggerate.
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Old 04-06-2015, 02:25 PM   #144
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Emphasis mine

I think perhaps you exaggerate.
I'm just glad this is some people's "Biggest Frustration with REAPER".

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Old 04-06-2015, 02:26 PM   #145
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I'm just glad this is some people's "Biggest Frustration with REAPER".

Fanboi!!!
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:36 PM   #146
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For the record, Reaper is mh main host, i have used all the others, i doubt i will ever go back, however i see no need to confess my love for Reaper and if something is poor in Reaper i have no problem stating it, that does not make me a whiner or lazy, it makes me honest (oh and when it comes to workarounds i invented a bunch of em haha, it has nothing to do with not using workarounds either)
Heh heh, I'm sorry gpunk, but this almost sounds like if you're sitting in the midst of a few people, and you say you like Reaper, they're all going to frown at you and your going to be embarrassed.

Don't get me wrong gpunk, I do like you and trust in what you have to say, I do have a great deal of respect for you. It's just that you continue to hammer and hammer at the same thing, that Reaper sucks in one way or another, and eventually it gets very old.

I know you say you are just being honest and your are, almost everything you say is pretty much right on. But you have a tendency to be so negative, which in itself is okay, but it's usually also pretty callus.

My thinking on all this is that I wish there was a way for for all the serious users, the ones that understand Reaper and use it every day, maybe in a professional way, maybe not, could somehow get together and discuss it all in a positive constructive way without the negative chatter. Believe me I do have my own thoughts on all that.

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Old 04-06-2015, 04:14 PM   #147
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Ok, so after 4 pages I think we figured out the top frustrations:

1) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated
2) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated
3) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated
4) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated about being not frustrated
5) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustrated with their frustrations
6) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustr... ah hell I give up.

Justin, this should be easy to code...
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:36 PM   #148
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Ok, so after 4 pages I think we figured out the top frustrations:

1) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated
2) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated
3) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated
4) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated about being not frustrated
5) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustrated with their frustrations
6) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustr... ah hell I give up.

Justin, this should be easy to code...
I think you pretty much nailed it.
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:47 PM   #149
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Heh heh, I'm sorry gpunk, but this almost sounds like if you're sitting in the midst of a few people, and you say you like Reaper, they're all going to frown at you and your going to be embarrassed.

Don't get me wrong gpunk, I do like you and trust in what you have to say, I do have a great deal of respect for you. It's just that you continue to hammer and hammer at the same thing, that Reaper sucks in one way or another, and eventually it gets very old.

I know you say you are just being honest and your are, almost everything you say is pretty much right on. But you have a tendency to be so negative, which in itself is okay, but it's usually also pretty callus.

My thinking on all this is that I wish there was a way for for all the serious users, the ones that understand Reaper and use it every day, maybe in a professional way, maybe not, could somehow get together and discuss it all in a positive constructive way without the negative chatter. Believe me I do have my own thoughts on all that.
And here we go again, point out an issue and you are being negative or whiney, and oh please do point out where i ever said Reaper sucks ?

Now who is exagerating Nicholas ?
Oh but hey your comment about every positive thing said about Reaper makes you worry about being called a fanboy, that wasnt exaggeration either right ?

This is how it stands here right now, where is the balance you wanted
I love Reaper = that user is fine
Reaper has this issue = That user said Reaper sucks (Ahem, check above quote)

By the way this is not a slight at Tod or Nicholas its just a discussion (obvious respect for what they do for the community)
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:52 PM   #150
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... but anyone [not him, but anyone] who actually thinks Reaper can accomplish the same midi editing tasks as Cubase or similar with actions and scripts is delusional.
Could you be specific about this, because I am trying to think of MIDI editing tasks in Cubase that cannot be accomplished with ReaScript and am drawing a blank?
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:41 PM   #151
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Actually fanboys

I'm a fanboy


Does that make me bad?
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Old 04-06-2015, 06:16 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
This is how it stands here right now, where is the balance you wanted
I love Reaper = that user is fine
Reaper has this issue = That user said Reaper sucks
Love it! I think I'm being verballed!

Maybe just old age, but I don't recall saying that. It most certainly isn't what I think. FWIW I would like to see more balance on all sides, not just one.

I have always believed that we should all respect the point of view of others, be polite, reasoned and temperate in discussion, that there is no place for name calling or inflammatory or provocative language and that we should conduct ourselves with dignity at all times. Apart from anything else, to do otherwise detracts from, rather than adds to, the force of the argument.

You may or may not agree with me, indeed you may or may not believe me, that's up to you, it is after all a free country (well, sort of ).
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Last edited by nicholas; 04-07-2015 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 04-06-2015, 06:21 PM   #153
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Automation lanes/points editing (copy/paste/select points across lanes) and the lack of Area Selection.
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Old 04-06-2015, 06:26 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
Ok, so after 4 pages I think we figured out the top frustrations:

1) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated
2) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated
3) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated
4) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated about being not frustrated
5) Users are frustrated that other users are frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustrated with their frustrations
6) Users are frustrated that other users aren't frustrated that they're frustrated about being frustr... ah hell I give up.

Justin, this should be easy to code...
That's a bingo!!!!
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Old 04-16-2015, 11:15 AM   #155
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Personally, I don't know about comms between the support+dev team and the forums.

From impressions, future requests seems like a wishlist, and that's fair enough.

I wonder if there aren't wins to be had all round by revising the features and development 'platform' between (I assume) admiring users and the Reaper custodians.

The most popular requests can then be focused on. Developers can keep parties informed about progress/feasibility...

I'm working on the assumption that currently there's a thread to users are invited to contribute to, and good ideas can be supported... and that's it.

just thinkin aloud
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