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Old 02-16-2014, 11:13 PM   #1
lxm
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Default Large Session Very Laggy GUI

Just wondering what causes this and how to fix it. Editing drums and there is a 2 second lag every time I make a split on group drum tracks. Another 2 second lag to slide the transients over. On and on. So incredibly aggravating.

Im freezing alot of tracks(VSTI). CPU is only about 30% however. Lots of RAM free.

The files im slip editing are a takes. Is the HD catching up? If I slip edit in a session thats smaller there is no problems.

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Old 02-17-2014, 03:56 AM   #2
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I've had this once or twice recently too and I'm thinking it's some how related to peak files but I might be wrong. I'm on a crazy fast new rig too with over powered GPU. It doesn't seem obvious either what is doing it.

Hiding video track helps me here but I don't think you have one right?
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:24 AM   #3
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lxm: Are you using ReaVerb on any tracks?
If so, have you checked the ZL and/or LL buttons at the bottom of the GUI? (Zero latency and low latency, respectively).

This has remedied or improved the lag situation for many of us.

EDIT: I have also had problems with other convolution 'verbs that are not zero latency- Cakewalk's Perfect Sound and the Computer Music version of Liquid Sonic's Reverberate.

Last edited by dug dog; 02-17-2014 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:41 AM   #4
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You could try changing Preferences->Appearance->UI Updates to 'Fast always'.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:53 AM   #5
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This may not be on target at all, but in the past I've seen Reaper slow down when I've mistakenly worked on an imported project that was recorded at a different sample rate than my setup. Reaper does the sample rate conversion on the fly, meaning that there is a lot of calculation going on before playback can happen. This could be one explanation...
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:31 PM   #6
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Thanks for the responses guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
I've had this once or twice recently too and I'm thinking it's some how related to peak files but I might be wrong. I'm on a crazy fast new rig too with over powered GPU. It doesn't seem obvious either what is doing it.

Hiding video track helps me here but I don't think you have one right?
No video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dug dog View Post
lxm: Are you using ReaVerb on any tracks?
If so, have you checked the ZL and/or LL buttons at the bottom of the GUI? (Zero latency and low latency, respectively).

This has remedied or improved the lag situation for many of us.

EDIT: I have also had problems with other convolution 'verbs that are not zero latency- Cakewalk's Perfect Sound and the Computer Music version of Liquid Sonic's Reverberate.
No Reaverb. Just using Valhalla stuff on this project atm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
You could try changing Preferences->Appearance->UI Updates to 'Fast always'.
Will try this.

EDIT: I already had that setting implemented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigearz View Post
This may not be on target at all, but in the past I've seen Reaper slow down when I've mistakenly worked on an imported project that was recorded at a different sample rate than my setup. Reaper does the sample rate conversion on the fly, meaning that there is a lot of calculation going on before playback can happen. This could be one explanation...
Everything has stayed at 48k

Last edited by lxm; 02-18-2014 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:50 PM   #7
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lxm... are there by chance or accident any rate changes?

that will REALLY bring it to a crawl... IF there are such that are intentional, then use Glue on the item to eliminate the extra load on reaper... but I think you know this.

so I'm just suggesting that rate changes can happen accidentally...
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
lxm... are there by chance or accident any rate changes?

that will REALLY bring it to a crawl... IF there are such that are intentional, then use Glue on the item to eliminate the extra load on reaper... but I think you know this.

so I'm just suggesting that rate changes can happen accidentally...
Tried to glue one section to see if that would help. At least then I would know what the problem is. It didnt help.

Only thing that may have changed is buffer sizes. Defiantly not the sample rate.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:33 AM   #9
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One or more plug-ins might just need lots of buffering on seek - turn them offline, starting on the master track, then one half of the tracks, then the other half to narrow that down.
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
One or more plug-ins might just need lots of buffering on seek - turn them offline, starting on the master track, then one half of the tracks, then the other half to narrow that down.
All tracks(minus already frozen ones) offline. Same behavior.
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:32 AM   #11
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wow... really strange... how many tracks do you have?
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:46 AM   #12
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Quote:
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wow... really strange... how many tracks do you have?
110...
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:09 AM   #13
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so are you saying they play OK but the gui is way slow?

or do I not understand that right?

IF that is right, what happens if you minimize the track size as much as possible...

I don't have near that many tracks but I do notice what I would call screen draw issues with reaper...
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:49 AM   #14
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If freezing didn't help, it doesn't seem like it's live sample rate converting causing you problems.
BUT IF IT IS... you should be able to see a turkis boks with the letter "i" on every sample clip. Mousing over it should say "Resampled from…"

Sometimes i've had sessions where this happened by accident. I think it's because Reaper projects by default inherit whatever sample rate your audio interface is on when opening a session. Ticking the Project sample rate box in Project Settings and choosing the right one solves this.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
so are you saying they play OK but the gui is way slow?

or do I not understand that right?

IF that is right, what happens if you minimize the track size as much as possible...

I don't have near that many tracks but I do notice what I would call screen draw issues with reaper...
Everything is kinda chugging along. Sometime takes a few seconds to start when tracks are recording. Entire session is laggy but editing audio is ridiculously slow. Its an i7 950 OC'd to 4.2/12 gigs of RAM. Nat a powerhouse anymore I realize but it should be doing this.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:48 PM   #16
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well I have a similar system and I'd say you certainly do have a powerhouse pc... it should handle things easily....

ummm no mention of the video card side of things... mine is only semi powerful and is likely the least powerful part of my system...

I 'think' but am not certain that reaper is sometimes affected by this... but on the other hand I do a lot of intensive photoshop work and I see no sign of drawing issues there... even with very big files...

I know and have mentioned before that there IS something odd about how reaper draws to the screen... mostly what I see happen is with plugn GUI's... and the arrange window that does not refresh nicely behind them...

so you really have me curious here...
I don't have any projects near that big...and I can imagine it is a lot of zeros and ones to redraw to the screen when making changes... still I'd expect it work OK.

I think perhaps the DEV's need to chime in on this one.

PS just thinking but don't really know exactly how reaper handles freezing... but thinking that since it has to keep a lot of info ready to unfreeze if asked, that might be part of the problem.

I guess I would do the PITA test of making a copy of the project and just unlocking the wav's and copy that to new track and then delete the frozen version... until I end up with nothing but wav files [or not yet frozen midi and vsti] and see if that starts to change the game.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:16 PM   #17
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Just tossing some beans to see if anyone farts but i wonder if (just to test) switching to a more basic theme like 1.x will make any difference in UI reaponse.

I'd also ask if there is any time stretching going on with any of the files, any kind of real time operation like that which might be slowing things down.

I'd also do a system reboot and see if it still happens after that.

And maybe also check that you aren't using a ton of ram for undo steps.

That's all I got.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:11 PM   #18
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Thanks for all the ideas. Will give these a go. I also wondered about the video card. Its nothing special but I think its a GIG. Should be more than enough. I also think it is something to do with the freezing. Its getting unusable to I hope I can figure it out soon.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:36 PM   #19
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I think what Lawrence and hopi are thinking may lead somewhere...

my guess is the freeze and it's need to keep an undo condition, when multiplied many times are the cause...

a gig video card should be OK, I'd think... not spectacular but adequate .... anyway, even if it's not just slow screen draws but really slow functioning as you mention... I'll bet on those many freezes...
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:23 PM   #20
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What has likely happened is that some of your tracks have increased their channel count from 2 to more, and that's eating up a lot of resources.

In large projects you should consider running mono tracks through one channel only, using the pin mapping on the top right of the FX window.
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:33 PM   #21
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Of late I've also had this problem. Mine's not a large session though.

And I'm thinking it has to do with some plugin because I don't update Reaper unless something's broken. With the same version of Reaper things used to fly before (100 tracks with video, yes).

Hmm...
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:49 PM   #22
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I'm also having this problem with small projects. Ticking the latency buttons in ReaVerb improved the situation but does not alleviate it completely. However, if plug in latency can affect the GUI, then maybe some other plugs are slowing things down. For example, I often have a linear phase multi-band comp on the master buss and it has a fairly high latency. More investigation is required.

I'm running XP on an older machine but my system is not overly taxed according to Windows Task Manager.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:03 PM   #23
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I got it the other day again but there didn't seem to be a reason for it..

I was in a rush and I can't recall what I did to sort it out but will do next time!
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:21 PM   #24
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1. big file in the clipboard (copy and paste)?
2. difference between SSD and HDD?
3. close and reload reaper solves the problem?
4. clear undo history if not to important to keep it
5. ram overheated? overclocking? restart computer and try again
6. system fan filled with dust? system too hot? hotter then normal? above 60°C?
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:32 PM   #25
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Still driving me absolutely batshit. Everyday I kinda go crazy..(literally) but work through it.

Tried setting to a basic theme no help. I have numerous screensets I use. Could that be it?

Cut the undo RAM in half from default to 128. No help.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm View Post
Still driving me absolutely batshit. Everyday I kinda go crazy..(literally) but work through it.

Tried setting to a basic theme no help. I have numerous screensets I use. Could that be it?

Cut the undo RAM in half from default to 128. No help.
defragment harddrive, on windows better use the integrated defragmentation program.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
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defragment harddrive, on windows better use the integrated defragmentation program.
Tried this too
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm View Post
Tried this too
then you are as good as dead.
either blow yourself up or get a better computer.

cheers!
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Old 02-20-2014, 07:04 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmm View Post
then you are as good as dead.
either blow yourself up or get a better computer.

cheers!
Kinda agree with all of those things. I think its a REAPER thing tho. Seems im not the only one...
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:51 AM   #30
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Did you check the track channel counts? That is what's been causing the same exact thing in my projects before.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventh View Post
Did you check the track channel counts? That is what's been causing the same exact thing in my projects before.
Im a little confused by what you mean exactly/how to do it. Ill certainly try it however! Thanks. REAPER devs? Help?
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm View Post
Im a little confused by what you mean exactly/how to do it. Ill certainly try it however! Thanks. REAPER devs? Help?
it is just the number of tracks, no matter if they are freezed or not.
you must bounce/render groups into one track then remove the groups and only use the rendered track. but i guess thats no real solution.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:33 PM   #33
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Quote:
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it is just the number of tracks, no matter if they are freezed or not.
you must bounce/render groups into one track then remove the groups and only use the rendered track. but i guess thats no real solution.
If thats indeed the suggestion than no... not at all. Im trying to cycle through takes and going to the next or previous take = pauses of 4 or so seconds in between. Impossible to work this way! :screaming:

Once again, when I drag the 12 drum track and put them in a new project tab... all is well. Obviously this is not an ideal way of working however.

Last edited by lxm; 02-21-2014 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:30 PM   #34
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Sorry to hear nothing has worked so far. I have nothing new to suggest but am interested, did this large session ever work well as is? Or have you arrived at this point of lagging GUI little by little while the project kept growing?
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:39 PM   #35
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Sorry to hear nothing has worked so far. I have nothing new to suggest but am interested, did this large session ever work well as is? Or have you arrived at this point of lagging GUI little by little while the project kept growing?
I'm curious about this as well. And: does the lagging start immediately when turning on the computer and opening the project, or does it ever work normally even for a short period?

Do you have projects of comparable size and complexity that work fine? How about if you stick the same "troublesome" drum tracks in them?

What if you export the project into a newly-created RPP? (I think there's an action for this?)
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:49 PM   #36
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Sorry to hear nothing has worked so far. I have nothing new to suggest but am interested, did this large session ever work well as is? Or have you arrived at this point of lagging GUI little by little while the project kept growing?
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I'm curious about this as well. And: does the lagging start immediately when turning on the computer and opening the project, or does it ever work normally even for a short period?

Do you have projects of comparable size and complexity that work fine? How about if you stick the same "troublesome" drum tracks in them?

What if you export the project into a newly-created RPP? (I think there's an action for this?)
Its just so freaking frustrating. Right off the hop when I open this or ANY other large session.... the entire thing just lags horribly. Seems its trying to constantly catch up or something. When im tracking its annoying but not the end of the world I guess. When editing anything it would make any of us wanna pull our hair out.

Like I was saying... if I open up the 12 drum tracks(with lets say 20 takes) in a new project tab there is absolutely no issues. Everything flies. The fact I bypassed all the effects(other than frozen ones) makes me think it might be an issue with how REAPER freezes tracks. Im going to try opening this session and kill all the effects incl the frozen stuff and see IF thats any better.

I would be happy to upload the RPP to REAPER devs but its quite large with numerous plugins that they may or may not have.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm View Post
Its just so freaking frustrating. Right off the hop when I open this or ANY other large session.... the entire thing just lags horribly. Seems its trying to constantly catch up or something. When im tracking its annoying but not the end of the world I guess. When editing anything it would make any of us wanna pull our hair out.

Like I was saying... if I open up the 12 drum tracks(with lets say 20 takes) in a new project tab there is absolutely no issues. Everything flies. The fact I bypassed all the effects(other than frozen ones) makes me think it might be an issue with how REAPER freezes tracks. Im going to try opening this session and kill all the effects incl the frozen stuff and see IF thats any better.

I would be happy to upload the RPP to REAPER devs but its quite large with numerous plugins that they may or may not have.
dont forget to make a backup copy of the project
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Like I was saying... if I open up the 12 drum tracks(with lets say 20 takes) in a new project tab there is absolutely no issues. Everything flies. The fact I bypassed all the effects(other than frozen ones) makes me think it might be an issue with how REAPER freezes tracks. Im going to try opening this session and kill all the effects incl the frozen stuff and see IF thats any better.
That's what I would do: go through it methodically and find out which aspect has the strongest impact on performance: reducing track count, reducing plugins, reducing media items in play, reducing freezes, etc., one category at a time. If there's an obvious culprit, see if you can make a virginal demo project that exhibits the lag with only the minimal complexity needed, and post in the bug reports forum. E.g. if, hypothetically, you make 150 identical tracks with a copy of the same media item and one FX and freeze them and demonstrate that editing is impractically slow, and others confirm it, that's a lot easier for the devs to approach.

(Shot in the dark: you're overclocking; are you good at it? :-) I ask in case there is some CPU throttling happening from overheating or something along those lines, though it doesn't sound like it, really. Where exactly did you get the "30% CPU" figure? Are you keeping track of temps and fan speeds and so forth?)
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:24 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxm View Post
If thats indeed the suggestion
No. The channel count of tracks themselves.
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:22 AM   #40
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Late to the party, and just throwing in two cents - did you try doing a portable install, with all the default reaper settings?

Also, is it a gradual slowdown, i. e., is it better at 109 tracks and better still at 100 tracks? Or is there a threshold somewhere that's triggering this behavior ?
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