Selecting envelope points across multiple lanes

[visa tapani]

Vote on ticket at issue tracker here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4137
Some previous discussion: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=73435

Reaper seems to employ an unusual and IMO a very convoluted automation paradigm where you need to have an envelope lane selected in order to select or modify its envelope points - and you can only have one lane selected at a time. I see no advantages in this workflow, only severe disadvantages.

This means, for example, that you cannot select points on several lanes in order to do some common operation to all of them - most commonly delete or move. In Reaper you're in big trouble If you have, say, 20 synchronized automation lanes and you need to move all of the points while keeping them in sync - a very common need. If you want to move points on all of the lanes, you can use "envelope points move with media items" (and add empty media items if there are none, which is another unnecessary workaround). But obviously this doesn't work if 1.) you want to do something else to them than move or 2.) if you want to move points on several, but not all lanes.

When you have to do a common operation on envelope segments on several lines, you have to go through all of them one by one, which is obviously a ridiculous proposition in a project with tens of automation envelopes. You can't even do "reduce number of points" on all the lanes simultaneously, but have to do it one by one.

Strangely I didn't find exactly this feature request being done before, even though it seems absolutely elementary to me. All the other hosts I know allow for lassoing envelope points on any number of lanes and then moving/deleting/readjusting/copying these. For some inexplicable reason Reaper seems to lack this basic feature. This relates to a previous feature request of selecting more than one envelope track, although that ticket didn't touch on what I think are the biggest issues here.

Here's a gif-animation of operating on points across multiple envelopes in Cubase 5:

This is from an older version of Cubase before the automation improvements in v6; also I forgot to do some basic operations in the video like move and copy. However, it still illustrates the point, I think.

[danfuerth]

I agree 100% this needs to be fixed.

[chopstickkk]

You da man/woman.

[sdog]

And for anyone interested, here is why it has to be fixed:

Extremely Common Scenario: Complex feature film project with 100s of tracks. Dozens of envelope lanes. Envelope automation everywhere. Some envelopes nowhere near an item (in parent folders or other routed tracks). Some envelope points nowhere near an item, even when the envelope is attached to a track with items (the envelope points occur before and after items such that item #a gets value #1 and item #b gets value #2). They are relevant to the track, not the item).

As we all know, the "final cut" of a film is never the "final" cut. So now the director has lopped off 10 seconds here, 106 frames there, and the audio project needs to be adjusted to match the new picture cut.

So what do we want to do? An EXTREMELY common and conceptually simple edit called a "cut". We've lopped out the little bit of audio we're no longer interested in. Now we want to:

1. Select EVERYTHING after time x (including items and ALL automation points) and
2. Nudge it left a specific amount (10 seconds or 106 frames or what have you) to close the gap.

When we are making this extremely common edit in our audio program, whether it is film audio, music or anything else, this simple two step process is what we want to do almost every time without fail. Sure, if we're just shuffling things around in time on some tracks, but not others, we might want to choose more carefully which items and automation points move. But clipping a little snippet of time out of an entire audio program is so common I can't believe we missed it. In this case, it's hard to imagine NOT wanting to select and shift EVERYTHING to the right of our cut.

What we don't want to do is select each of our dozens of envelope lanes one-by-one, run "Envelope: Select points in time selection", open it up wide enough to grab a point, guess at how far we are moving the selected points since we don't have a proper nudge dialog for envelope points, and then, to add insult to injury, still take a couple more moves, separate from this envelope moving process, to shift all the items.

Did I somehow miss an easier way to do this or am I describing the process accurately?

[visa tapani]

Originally Posted by sdog

Did I somehow miss an easier way to do this or am I describing the process accurately?

Actually yes - in that particular scenario I believe you could just use "ripple editing all tracks" and move an event (create a dummy even if there isn't one in the right place) to move everything. Although it might not work exactly as wanted, not sure...

[semiquaver]

Yes this is very important and all arguments above make perfect sense

I would suggest though that the FR is perhaps a little wordy and also argumentative, which I don't think is helpful.

How about:

" ability to select automation points on multiple lanes "

Currently REAPER requires a lane to be selected to select points on it.

in addition to the ability to select points on multiple lanes, actions and mouse modifiers to select points are needed:

1 a mouse modifier which would permit marquee selection of visible points.

2 An action to select all points on all lanes of selected track (in time selection)

3 an action to select first lane (next lane / all lanes / all visible lanes) of selected track.

does that make sense? have I forgotten anything?

[airon]

That marquee method is exceptionally error-prone when selecting across multiple lanes. This is one of the big reasons I favor something that works and looks like area selection.

This is actually already in place for one lane, just not for multiple. It depends on the "Track" left-drag context being at its default.

[visa tapani]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

I would suggest though that the FR is perhaps a little wordy and also argumentative, which I don't think is helpful.

Ok true, I agree, I've now edited the FR to be shorter, more to the point and less snarky. I didn't put the actions and mouse modifiers in there, though, in order to not complicate the issue further. I think these actions would be useful, but they aren't possible at all before the whole behaviour is changed, which needs to be the main feature request first.

I also added an example GIF-animation about editing points on multiple lanes in Cubase 5 to the FR. Cubase 5's automation wasn't great either (it was improved in 6), and I forgot to do some basic things in the video like move and copy. However, maybe it still illustrates something about the limitations of Reaper's method.

[ZoeB]

Voted yes.

I was working on a track last week, editing it down to a shorter version. I removed the beginning, then tried to move everything remaining over to the left... but only the first of two channels of envelopes moved along with all the recordings.

Being able to Select All and move everything back and forth is really an essential feature!

Thanks!

[X-Raym]

@ZoeB
In your case, set the opton to move envelope points with items and set ripple eiditing to all or per track active. This way if you delete items envelope points move also.

Also there is an action to remove content of time selection, which moves further content back.

Choose what fit your case the best !

[NinaMaya]

Tried to vote yes. Got 500 error.

The lack of this actually makes me search for alternative DAWs. For me, this is actually almost as important like having a scrollwheel or having a right mouse button. It's ESSENTIAL for me. This stands in the way of a really creative workflow, because you avoid to create many envelopes for one track because you know you won't be able to properly handle them afterwards.

I often have situations like in my screenshot: multiple envelopes, somewhat grouped, so it would be REALLY nice to just move portions of that around, not every lane on its own.

[Bri1]

I often have situations like in my screenshot: multiple envelopes, somewhat grouped, so it would be REALLY nice to just move portions of that around, not every lane on its own.

Regions + selections takes care of that in it's own way.
Oh-forgot--- you can wrap regions within regions to group them=trick.

[vanhaze]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Regions + selections takes care of that in it's own way.
Oh-forgot--- you can wrap regions within regions to group them=trick.

????

My experience:
Creating a Region and then duplicate that Region will still duplicate ALL visible envelope points (on different lanes) that fall into the original Region, although you maybe had selected envelope points on only 1 lane, before creating the Region.

So no selective duplication of envelope points in different envelope lanes possible by first making a Region and then duplicate that Region:

Here's a gif showing what i mean:
http://imgur.com/IyVwC8v

[deeb]

Originally Posted by NinaMaya

Tried to vote yes. Got 500 error.

For me, this is actually almost as important like having a scrollwheel or having a right mouse button. It's ESSENTIAL for me. This stands in the way of a really creative workflow, because you avoid to create many envelopes for one track because you know you won't be able to properly handle them afterwards.

exactly!

Area selection / Range Selection is the way to go!
Other then this, reaper is not far from perfect tho!