Subgroup Questions

[Jogon]

Hey guys! So I have two specific questions I really hope someone can answer! I’ve kind of posted on this elsewhere just a little recently, but I think this might be the best place to ask these questions.


Ok so I’ve recently read a few blogs on subgroups, and seen a few videos online including Homestudiocorner/Recording Revolution. Now I do bus my guitars/vox etc. But, what I wasn’t doing was using a bus before the Aux to meter the clipping as done in their videos. I think that’s great. When you raise the faders of individual channels, the bus could be clipping, but the bus meter won’t show the clipping since its post fader (If you have compression etc. on the bus lowering the signal (meter) so by applying the FX on the Aux like buss compression etc., you can use the Bus to meter clipping. I hope this is making sense, I’m pretty sure most of you know what I’m talking about, if not feel free to watch the videos on YouTube, or reading up on it, they’re relatively short.

Thus comes my two…possibly three questions for the reaper users of the world.

Question One- I see that on every video I have seen the method is always the same. (Granted I’ve only seen pro tools users do this so the system might be different) They send the tracks to a bus (I think it’s the output of the tracks) and dump that track into an Aux (I’m again assuming they’re putting the output of the bus to the Aux)

This in fact is my first question, because in reaper I can just put all the tracks I want in a folder and that’s it. I don’t put the output or send it to a bus, by putting it in the folder (I’m assuming) the output is set and that’s it. After that it would just be a matter of sending that bus to a stereo aux and making sure it’s not also sent to the master also duplicating the audio by clicking the option off.

So my first question is, is that the right method? Please elaborate!

Question Two - Could I not just put the bus folder of all my tracks into another folder (2nd bus I guess) and use the first to monitor clipping and the second to apply my FX? I honestly don’t see why I could not just do it that way. In fact I did a few experiments this way and not only was it easier but I did in fact see the first bus clipping but the second one, (the bus folder placed into another folder) was not. I’m asking this because maybe there is something I am not considering.

My last question which is slightly redundant is- If most people send their tracks to a bus then an aux so the bus could monitor clipping as they raise the faders of individual channels, do most people also as they raise the individual channels bypass the FX on that channel to also see if that channel is clipping but the meter is not showing it because it might have compression/limiting etc? Again silly as it may be I’m asking because I just really want to be informed, and know what is practical, and what is common practice regarding subgroups, specifically in reaper.

Thanks again guys! I know it’s a bit long of a post but I’m hoping experienced reaper users could chime in and give some insight on this!

[ashcat_lt]

IDK if ProTools has something stupid going on that would make it different, but in most DAWS today you can't actually clip the internal mix engine at any point. Call a track a bus or a subgroup or an aux or whatever, it's still not going to clip. Maybe the signal will be a bit high to work with, which might affect the way non-linear FX you insert respond, but it's not going to clip. Period. So most of what you're talking about is kind of moot.

If for whatever reason you really want to see the level at the beginning (or any point, really) of an FX chain, you could just as easily drop in a VST meter plugin, or even as simple as stick in JS Volume. Then you'd have a meter and a fader to do something about it.

But yes, you can use either of the methods you mentioned if you really want to, and it'll work fine, except that if you're using anything other than 0db pan law, each successive track that you run the signal through will attenuate it to some extent, and you may end up having to compensate for that.

[Jogon]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

IDK if ProTools has something stupid going on that would make it different, but in most DAWS today you can't actually clip the internal mix engine at any point. Call a track a bus or a subgroup or an aux or whatever, it's still not going to clip. Maybe the signal will be a bit high to work with, which might affect the way non-linear FX you insert respond, but it's not going to clip. Period. So most of what you're talking about is kind of moot.

If for whatever reason you really want to see the level at the beginning (or any point, really) of an FX chain, you could just as easily drop in a VST meter plugin, or even as simple as stick in JS Volume. Then you'd have a meter and a fader to do something about it.

But yes, you can use either of the methods you mentioned if you really want to, and it'll work fine, except that if you're using anything other than 0db pan law, each successive track that you run the signal through will attenuate it to some extent, and you may end up having to compensate for that.

I don't a whole lot about analog consoles and maybe you're saying it's not possibly to truly clip like a console but I'm talking about this:

(copy and pasting here)

Clipping is a form of distortion where the amplitude of the waveform is attempting to be so large it runs out of room and pushes against the extreme edges of available sampling space (referred to in digital audio terms as '0dB'). Because it has nowhere to go the waveform is flattened out at the peak of the amplitude in a hard line until the amplitude lowers again and resumes its normal curve (see the two waveform diagrams below). Both the hard line and the fact that there is a tight little corner bent into the shape of the waveform contribute to audible distortion. The sharper that bend and the longer that line is straight the harsher the sound of the distortion. If you'd like to know more about the technical background to clipping and distortion.

So anyone that has any insight on my my thread topic, if i should do it any other way would be much appreciated!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Jogon

So anyone that has any insight on my my thread topic, if i should do it any other way would be much appreciated!

Hi Jogon, and welcome to Reaper.

Personally I don't use folders but that's just me and I'm an old fart. I much prefer working with sub-buses.

Generally in my projects I will have several sub-buses. These sub-buses could be for anything, a Vox (vocal) sub-bus for 2 or more regular Vox tracks, BGV (BackGroundVocals) tracks, Rhythm Guitar tracks, so on and so forth. I'll also have sub-buses for different reverbs. I'll also have sub-buses for the drums and any other VSTis I think would benefit from them.

Then I will have a MASTER sub-bus and usually a Sub-Master bus. Basically, all other sub-buses or single tracks without sub-buses will be routed to the Sub-Master bus, which in turn is routed to the MASTER sub-bus.

The MASTER sub-bus will usually only have a limiter on it, although I may also have a spectrum analyzer on it as well. The Sub-Master will have all my other mastering FX on it.

There are some who will say this is not a good way to do it because of the Panning Laws, but I have never had any problems with that. My mixes turn out just the way I intend them to and this works very well for me.

Regarding the clipping, I think what ashcat_lt is talking about is that you don't need to be too concerned about tracks that indicate they are clipping as long as Reapers MASTER isn't clipping.

On the other hand, if you have an audio file that was clipped while recording it, then that's a different matter and you indeed have a bad audio file, and that will be clearly indicated by the flat line you are talking about. The point here is to be careful when ever you record an audio track, that it doesn't clip. That includes recording the outputs of a track.

At any rate this is the way I do it and it works very well for me.

[ashcat_lt]

0dbfs is essentially an external ceiling. It is as loud as your converters can get, and as loud as a fixed bit file can be rendered. The mix engine in Reaper, though, runs on floating point math. It still has a ceiling, but it's at least 6 billion times as loud as 0dbfs. No, that's not an exaggeration. You can take 16 tracks, all hitting 0dbfs, and mix them together on a bus track and it will hit +24dbfs. It won't clip at 0, it'll just happily go on hitting 24. If you try to play it back, it will clip your converter and sound distorted. If you try to render it to 24 bit .wav, it'll get clipped and distorted, but if you turn down the bus track fader 24db, it'll just barely touch 0, and won't actually be clipped at all.

That's not a good reason to go nuts with levels. Eventually you will have to play it through a DAC or render it to a file. It does, however, mean that you have a lot more headroom than many people seem to think.

[Jogon]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi Jogon, and welcome to Reaper.

Personally I don't use folders but that's just me and I'm an old fart. I much prefer working with sub-buses.

Generally in my projects I will have several sub-buses. These sub-buses could be for anything, a Vox (vocal) sub-bus for 2 or more regular Vox tracks, BGV (BackGroundVocals) tracks, Rhythm Guitar tracks, so on and so forth. I'll also have sub-buses for different reverbs. I'll also have sub-buses for the drums and any other VSTis I think would benefit from them.

Then I will have a MASTER sub-bus and usually a Sub-Master bus. Basically, all other sub-buses or single tracks without sub-buses will be routed to the Sub-Master bus, which in turn is routed to the MASTER sub-bus.

The MASTER sub-bus will usually only have a limiter on it, although I may also have a spectrum analyzer on it as well. The Sub-Master will have all my other mastering FX on it.

There are some who will say this is not a good way to do it because of the Panning Laws, but I have never had any problems with that. My mixes turn out just the way I intend them to and this works very well for me.

Regarding the clipping, I think what ashcat_lt is talking about is that you don't need to be too concerned about tracks that indicate they are clipping as long as Reapers MASTER isn't clipping.

On the other hand, if you have an audio file that was clipped while recording it, then that's a different matter and you indeed have a bad audio file, and that will be clearly indicated by the flat line you are talking about. The point here is to be careful when ever you record an audio track, that it doesn't clip. That includes recording the outputs of a track.

At any rate this is the way I do it and it works very well for me.

Hey thanks for the warm welcome!!! Ok so why not just put a sub master (with your limiter) and on your master fader put your mastering fx etc.? I'm asking cause I know in pro tools there was a problem where the master fader is post fader in metering so most people would send their tracks to a submix and that to a submaster and leave their master fader alone. In reaper though there is an option for pre fader automation on the actual master fader, so I can track clipping on my submix and apply fx on the master without worrying about moving the fader because of it's option, and affecting lets say the matser bus compression and they way it's affected.

ashcat_lt wow I never knew that, yeah I don't really know too much about clipping, lol wish I did just trying to wrap my head around this whole sub-grouping fiasco

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Jogon

Hey thanks for the warm welcome!!! Ok so why not just put a sub master (with your limiter) and on your master fader put your mastering fx etc.? I'm asking cause I know in pro tools there was a problem where the master fader is post fader in metering so most people would send their tracks to a submix and that to a submaster and leave their master fader alone. In reaper though there is an option for pre fader automation on the actual master fader, so I can track clipping on my submix and apply fx on the master without worrying about moving the fader because of it's option, and affecting lets say the matser bus compression and they way it's affected.

Hi again Jogon, There is a reason for what I do, and I prefer not to put anything on my actual Reaper MASTER.

Many times I'll have a track or two for comparison with what I'm mixing and I like to run them through the main MASTER too. That's why I prefer not to have any FX on the MASTER or change it in any way.

The reason for two Sub-Masters (sort of a Sub-Master & a Sub-Sub-Master)is that I can then push the limiter as much or as little as I want.

[ashcat_lt]

I guess I had two main points:

1) You don't have to worry about the busses themselves clipping because they pretty much can't. The concern raised in the OP is a vestige from the days of fixed-bit mix busses and analog headroom limits before that. We have evolved past such concerns.

B) There all kinds of ways to meter your signal at any point in the chain, and adding a bus just for that would be about the last thing I would reach for. Hell, you could just split the stereo signal to a second pair of channels on the bus track before any fx and see the pre a post levels side by side!

There are good reasons to watch your levels, and to use busses, but the ones outlined in the OP don't really sound like the best of them.

[Judders]

Originally Posted by Jogon

Question Two - Could I not just put the bus folder of all my tracks into another folder (2nd bus I guess) and use the first to monitor clipping and the second to apply my FX? I honestly don’t see why I could not just do it that way. In fact I did a few experiments this way and not only was it easier but I did in fact see the first bus clipping but the second one, (the bus folder placed into another folder) was not. I’m asking this because maybe there is something I am not considering.

My last question which is slightly redundant is- If most people send their tracks to a bus then an aux so the bus could monitor clipping as they raise the faders of individual channels, do most people also as they raise the individual channels bypass the FX on that channel to also see if that channel is clipping but the meter is not showing it because it might have compression/limiting etc? Again silly as it may be I’m asking because I just really want to be informed, and know what is practical, and what is common practice regarding subgroups, specifically in reaper.

Thanks again guys! I know it’s a bit long of a post but I’m hoping experienced reaper users could chime in and give some insight on this!

Yes, you can use folders (or universal tracks as subgroups), or you can use sends. There is no right or wrong, just what suits you.

I don't bother with pre-fx metering. If I really need to check gain staging I'll bypass inserts, but it's very rare that I do (even less now so few plugins are fixed-point).

Think of busses as wires. All they do is pass signal unaffected to other channels (whether pre/post inserts/fader/pan).

It might also be a good idea to read up on fixed and floating point bit depth in digital audio.

Here's a good general primer, though not REAPER specific: http://www.centerforlydteknik.dk/dow...ital-audio.pdf