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Old 11-17-2015, 02:50 PM   #41
Lawrence
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My comments should probably be framed in their correct context since it's getting mixed up.

A guy you don't really know hands you a song to mix. If there is no discussion about alternate arrangements don't do one. The simple act of doing one (unsolicited) implies that you think something is wrong with the other one and that yours is "better". At that point you are "judging" the musical value of something you were hired to mix, without being asked.

If you thought the arrangement was great you'd not be doing that... right? Unless your other job was a dance music producer and you did a dance remix on spec.

Not talking about friends and family and good aquanitances or the teen garage band down the road but strangers, contextually.

Your job is to make whatever they give you sound as good as you can, period, Along the way if you have issues you communicate that.... "Hey, I'm really struggling with the drums, is it ok to do some drum replacement or are you locked into the drum sounds?"

Otoh, I have done alternate arrangements of some stuff for fun but nobody involved ever knows. I think we all have at some point.

I would just say, be careful doing that if you're in business. Unless you are really - great - at it, and everyone - thinks - they are obviously , it could be viewed badly, and some artists will take offense to you altering their music.

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Old 11-17-2015, 02:54 PM   #42
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Want to be successful? Don't be afraid to do what everyone else says you can't do and... do it better. Want to be mediocre? Always follow the crowd while ignoring any opportunity that goes against the grain. Know when to do which. That's one of the first things I learned, do what everyone else does, you have to compete with everyone else, do it differently and do it well, compete with no one and also stand out from the 'crowd'. It's very comfortable to move within the heard, not so much to stray and make a real difference.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:06 PM   #43
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No, there is a right answer. Mixers should be mixers and producers producers. Don't be mucking up a system that works just fine when people who know their jobs do what they are hired to do.

You chaps who want to fudge things don't have enough real studio experience. Some places you'll be fired, go before peer review, and things even worse. If you haven't spent a few career years in this business, you just don't know how it is done. You start learning the pecking order the first day of your brand new coffee fetcher, tape-head cleaner job.

You want to go rogue? Do it in your freakin' basement studio, with your best bud, Mikey and your sis, and maybe your mum helping out. But NOT in RIAA or SPARS-affiliated studios. Those people will have their hands on your neck quick about bad protocol like this. Don't believe me? Look it up before you spout off on being "a mixer who does production".
If i get paid to be many things how many fucks do you give?

Keep the cheap shots for another day it fogs up any salient points you might me making.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:07 PM   #44
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I never implied you can't, only pointing out the other side of what might happen if you do.

Being successful doesn't mean assuming that everything you do will be well received just because you go against the grain. It's all, imo, pretty silly, the discussion, when all you ever have to do is just ask? If you're afraid to ask something that's so easy to ask, that maybe says a lot about the relationship you have with the client. Just ask.

Not to mention you can potentially save some time not doing something they might have no interest in and (legally) ask you to fully erase / delete it from everywhere it is.

Just ask. I don't see what the problem is. Ask the net but - not - the client?
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:18 PM   #45
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Being successful doesn't mean assuming that everything you do will be well received just because you go against the grain
That isn't what I said or intended rather. The big picture is this thread is a silly place to find this answer. A person either has a feel for making things work or they don't and need to learn to, that's it. For every rule someone here gives me, I'll break it and find another path. Most of those who make a real difference in this world do just that, I'm not at that scale by any means, I'm just some schmuck, don't mind me but the mentality stands. Or, it's just fine to follow the advice of others, be like others and blend in like others. All good either way.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:22 PM   #46
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Lawrence clear this up for me squire.

Why you go on about asking? And do you aim this in my direction?

3 times now I made it clear (post 20 for starters) that permission and an understanding of the role and relationship is fundamental and taken as read and doing stuff not briefed to do is v risky.

-----
Anyway.

Fact is I am pleased when i listen to prev work and hear that little suggestions or ideas added value to the overall output. Also first to admit if I got it wrong or some tweak was unnecessary or wished we'd done something differently.

Am more brutal with my own material, I don't go off crying cos I binned an hours worth of basslines I decided were shit. That's the way it goes. And 10seconds of it might be gold.

Personally if i were to entrust my music in some way to a professional i would understand i would lose 'total ownership ' ( in a non legal way) and it is like a Child you have dropped off at college.

Might come back a bit different.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:24 PM   #47
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Yeah. I understood your comment.

I was trying to give the perpective of a negative experience where someone - didn't ask - in the context of having a professional relationship with a client. Some artists are really touchy so why not just ask?

Will it sound better if you don't get permission first?

I get that they might like yours better and be happy, cool. I just don't understand what's so hard about being polite and asking first except for the possibility that the person might say "no" and the other person is so convinced his will be so much better that he's determined to do it anyway?

I didn't say... "Don't do it." I said why not respect the person and ask permission. I suppose that's a radical idea. It never even occurs to anyone that your version might be so much better that it might actually piss the person off because they want to be fully responsible for their own art?
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:29 PM   #48
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Ok but Don't keeping tell me re asking ! Tell this person that obviously wound you up!
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:33 PM   #49
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Not wound up, I just maybe see too much of that and it kinda irks me.

Do whatever you think is best, always, in all cases, but still be aware of any and all possible consequences. My comments are not a rule, more an experience.

There are no rules. Whatever makes people happy is good.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:39 PM   #50
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understandable.

anyway studio has warmed up and i should prob edit down the intro of someones stuff that i didn't touch as it 'wasn't my department' which then they brought up...
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:39 PM   #51
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Go for it. I'm sure they'll love it.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:43 PM   #52
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Go for it. I'm sure they'll love it.
but i'm too amazing for these lowly scissor jobs, i'm going to add reverse harmonicas!!*

*nah.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:47 PM   #53
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Shifting subject matter....

My most difficult discussion with local home recording clients is re-recording. I would get these songs to mix and (more often than not) the vocals (the recordings) would be horrible, but they can't hear it. I'd try to convince them to let me re-record all of the vocals and all they really hear is me trying to pad the bill.

It's the "after first evaluation" conversation, and it's hard on really low budget home projects because if you don't re-track the vocals you spend the next 4-5 hours mixing thinking about what it - probably should - sound like, which is really depressing.

You have this really nice R&B song or whatever, with VI's doing the music, everthing is great, and the vocal recordings sound like shit.

/Off Topic

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Old 11-17-2015, 03:50 PM   #54
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Want to be successful? Don't be afraid to do what everyone else says you can't do and...
Want to be fired? Do crap you're not really supposed to be doing...


Lawrence was hinting at it but that, too, went right in one ear and out the other for the peanut gallery here. Yeah, you're so savvy at reading ego, personality, touchy feely stuff, that you know when to step in immediately and suggest this and that, offer 'improvements'.

BenK-masochist, nobody cares. Only thing I'm interested in is how many mixer jobs you been fired from for stepping on your bosses toes. Yeah, your studios all warmed up now, better go, huh ... right. It's the bedroom to the left of the bathroom, benny.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:56 PM   #55
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Want to be fired? Do crap you're not really supposed to be doing...


Lawrence was hinting at it but that, too, went right in one ear and out the other for the peanut gallery here. Yeah, you're so savvy at reading ego, personality, touchy feely stuff, that you know when to step in immediately and suggest this and that, offer 'improvements'.

BenK-masochist, nobody cares. Only thing I'm interested in is how many mixer jobs you been fired from for stepping on your bosses toes. Yeah, your studios all warmed up now, better go, huh ... right. It's the bedroom to the left of the bathroom, benny.
Did you run out of meds again?? You go through these weird stretches when you are a complete a-hole. And I'm not talking about "telling it like it is", or sharing the "brutal truth" about audio stuff...I am talking about the antagonizing, know-it-all blow-hard that seems to have all of the answers and gives them as if you are some kind of gift to us all. Oh yeah, throw in that "F-you" attitude, and that sums it up. These are phases (lunar, perhaps??) because I have also read plenty of your positive and helpful responses.... If you are having hard times and can't afford your meds, maybe we here at the forum can run a kick-started campaign to fund some..... Relax and play nice.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:11 PM   #56
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Want to be fired? Do crap you're not really supposed to be doing...


Lawrence was hinting at it but that, too, went right in one ear and out the other for the peanut gallery here. Yeah, you're so savvy at reading ego, personality, touchy feely stuff, that you know when to step in immediately and suggest this and that, offer 'improvements'.

BenK-masochist, nobody cares. Only thing I'm interested in is how many mixer jobs you been fired from for stepping on your bosses toes. Yeah, your studios all warmed up now, better go, huh ... right. It's the bedroom to the left of the bathroom, benny.
Bite me Dino.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:35 PM   #57
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Want to be fired? Do crap you're not really supposed to be doing...
Well that's a little late because I already did it for decades without getting fired but let's keep it in context, we are talking about a mixer presenting an idea to a band, not the kid making coffee in Lady Gaga's studio sneaking in an remixing her album - although he might do a great job and get famous, stranger things have happened.

Within 'context' of this thread.... Anyone with intelligence, good demeanor, who pays attention and has good communications skills will absolutely know when and when not to do whatever and there is no other answer than that. Most should be able to tell/know when it's a good idea; if not, then follow the rules, that's why they exist, to save you when can't figure out what to do.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:43 PM   #58
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I spose it depends on the circumstances, type of project, the artistic integrity of the musicians.

As an engineer you might feel you're improving things when you may just be reinforcing the kind of sad clichés which led to you spending your time being an "engineer" rather than an artist/musician in the first place.
Well said.

I would fire a recording engineer that changes anything on my music without me asking for it. A recording engineer should help with technical, not artistic, challenges.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:48 PM   #59
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I would fire a recording engineer that changes anything on my music without me asking for it.
And I would sense that about you with in 15 minutes (maybe 15 seconds) of meeting you and not do it. I don't need some rule posted on the interwebz decide for me. I also think Insub will be able to do the same thing at some point.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:54 PM   #60
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Karbo is a guy who's lived on the planet for quite a few decades and has gained the experience necessary to judge some of those things better. That doesn't mean every guy with a daw can get away with it with no consequences.

So we only said, "be careful, be aware of the potential pitfalls", if you aren't sure... and if you're asking the Internet, you obviously aren't sure.

The safest way is to just ask.

Maybe do it in a humble way... "Hey, you guys are great and I couldn't do any better but I'm really tempted to play with your musical arrangement just to see what comes of it. Is that ok?"

"Sure. Just don't share it with anybody or let anyone else but me hear it."

... Or ...

"I appreciate the compliment, thanks, but I'd rather you not do that."

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Old 11-17-2015, 04:55 PM   #61
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Some artists are really touchy so why not just ask?
Sorry I missed this. Of course I'd ask but that would be after I had already done so in a copy of the project in private to make sure what I'm consdiering stands on it's own. If so and the opportunity presents itself, I might bring it up, it's all about having a good sense of what to do, good timing and as I said, paying attention. There is just as much a chance the band never knows I did it.

Nothing I said was about not asking and f'ing up someone's arrangement and has everything to do with not following some rule that says I shouldn't even ask or I should do 'what all the cool engineers' do. I'd make a good decision based on the situation at hand, which is always going to be different, which makes rule-based advice here pretty much worthless. No offense to anyone of course.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:56 PM   #62
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Within 'context' of this thread.... Anyone with intelligence, good demeanor, who pays attention and has good communications skills will absolutely know when and when not to do whatever and there is no other answer than that.
I think you're probably flattering most people's artistic objectivity.
Quite a few would probably insist on a bit of supersaw and some glitch beatz on Howlin Wolf if he walked into their studio as an unknown newcomer.
Not to mention autotune, removing string squeak, and run it through the granular resynthesis.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:01 PM   #63
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I think you're probably flattering most people's artistic objectivity.
Quite a few would probably insist on a bit of supersaw and some glitch beatz on Howlin Wolf if he walked into their studio as an unknown newcomer.
Not to mention autotune, removing string squeak, and run it through the granular resynthesis.
LOL!!
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:04 PM   #64
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And I would sense that about you with in 15 minutes (maybe 15 seconds) of meeting you and not do it. I don't need some rule posted on the interwebz decide for me. I also think Insub will be able to do the same thing at some point.
A mixing engineer should just mix to the best of his ability and only do more than that if specifically asked to do so. Most clients would be offended when presented with unsolicited "alternative arrangements". It would look weird, at the very least.

As Lawrence has said: why not ask first?
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:10 PM   #65
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Sorry I missed this.
No problem.

Yeah, if you (not you K, OP guy) hear something and do something, ask (at least after the fact), and maybe if they do say it's ok don't make it obvious that you'd actually done it - before - you asked.

Again, some musical artists have huge egos and the risk is offending the ego and losing money. Why even risk it, if the purpose is to make money.

Aside from that, and I think Karbo and Tele will confirm this... as you build good working relationships with clients they'll always start to ask you what you think anyway. All you have to do is wait.

"So what do you think?"

"I like it, but I think the arrangement could be a little better. (with real technical details, "the strings are clashing with the pads", whatever, not "I am great, I'll find something") I can give it a shot if it's ok with you."
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:11 PM   #66
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i'll regail one small exmaple from some years back.

an EP i worked on - basically rerecording an artist's demos to a (hopefully) better standard - it was known i would assist where i could so there no worry about 'permission'

anyway one track i wasn't very sure about the bassline -
albeit the track had no vocal yet so it highlighted the bassline.. but it thought perhaps it is not contributing enough? i wasn't sure.

niggled in my mind for while, then i toyed with a variation, off my own bat. previous suggestions hadn't been so musically significant as a 'bassline' so was wary.
i thought that was ok which gave me enough confidence to mention to artist, who'm i might add was cool about some previous ideas - and he liked the original bassline...

i still made my case, probed a bit - but then he said 'actually the bass was my fave bit of the song, was kinda proud of that bassline' -
which immediately saw me back off and be 'that is absolutely cool'.

if had he had responded 'yeh.. i know what you mean' we could have done something about it, but it was a key musical idea to the artist so i understood where the line was and we carried on.

as it was with the vocal and other decor in place it bounced along nicely.

other ideas i had went down ok some others def didnt - i didn't get upset (least don't think so!)

the point was there was no preciousness about who had the idea where it came from, whether it came to you in a dream, your mum emailed it to you, there was no 'i have a great idea aren't i better than you', or you are shit because i've made a suggestion; ego nonsense. if it worked it was in. total focus on the value of the output.

granted not all working relationships work out that way but you can make them work if careful and honest and not prone to curling up in a ball if someone disagrees with you.

if either one of you is a nutter or bullshit merchant as has been known, then issues ensue. thats life.

this whole 'getting permission' asking thing doesn't even become that necessary as it develops naturally as trust is gained over time, artist knows your capabilities a bit more, happily asks for input, you know the artist is ok with you pointing out things as they are sure you are not on a ego trip.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:16 PM   #67
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There is always the very real risk that what the recording engineer feels (because it's just a feeling, right?) is an "improvement" turns out to be a "butchering" of the project, at least in the artist's mind. Caution is best when dealing with artistic (therefore subjective) matters.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:22 PM   #68
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suck it and see. no harm done

you're making a record right? to be heard by other people who aren't you?


this guy who you clearly trust and chose to engineer your stuff for a reason who's done it a zillion time thinks the first verse is too long.

do you cry? sack the f*cker? no you snip it out, have a listen. decide. move on.

imo time for preciousness is over when you've handed it to someone else for the purposes of being in the public domain.

and remember it remain in that form FOREVER. when you are 80 you can listen to it, unchanged.. and you will think 'first verse is too long'...
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:27 PM   #69
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Yeah. These discussions can easily go off the rails because nobody has realy defined what they mean by "arranging", it's maybe a little vague.

It could mean anything from adding a few musical sweeteners or adding some percussive parts to help drive the beat, to making major changes to the original musical vision, tempo, key, new parts that didn't exist, removing parts that did, etc, etc.

Maybe one of you guys who have done that should link to an example of both, the original and your new arrangement of it, so we can see what you mean or did exactly?
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:37 PM   #70
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No, there is a right answer. Mixers should be mixers and producers producers. Don't be mucking up a system that works just fine when people who know their jobs do what they are hired to do.
At the budget level, most bands don't have producers and they often lean extremely heavily on the engineer to make drastic artistic decisions. Turning the EQ a certain way, or even turning it ON, IS an artistic decision. So it all depends. If you think you got a good idea, show it to the band, IF you can without cutting into their time, and if it seems like the type of situation where the band would welcome such a suggestion.

If you are really lucky, there's a visionary in the band that kind of hears the finished product in his mind already, and usually you don't have to do much besides plug mics in

In the real world, life is usually someplace far from either of the two extremes and you need to make a lot of judgement calls. Hopefully guided by what the band sees as their end goal.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:41 PM   #71
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As Lawrence has said: why not ask first?
See my clarification to Lawrence above... I'd surely ask but I wouldn't not ask due to this thread's advice of 'you should only be the mixer and mind your business without using your brain' - that's silly because no one has the slightest idea about those people in that session. The right answer is dynamic in that regard.

Secondly, I agree that too often some engineer himself will be too tied to the rules and what's hot in a different way where he is used to and will very likely be trying to push onto the band whatever the latest, overdone thing is and if it's any band I'd respect, they'd already be out in front of that game and doing the same thing I supported earlier... going against the comfortable grain in order to do something actually creative and fresh.

Anything fresh and creative isn't going to be understood by that type of mix engineer so I get it but I'm not really offering anything other than don't apply rules to any of this other than asking because the answer will be different for every single project. Useth das braineth.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:55 PM   #72
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richie: "Did you run out of meds again?? You go through these weird stretches when you are a complete a-hole."

Almost missed that one, richie, 'cause lately you specialise in the personal attacks and meanwhile act constantly offended.

You really don't want to do the personal attacks, like your immature, "You off your meds ..." thing and similar. Why? Cause I'm ten times better at it. But worst for you, I don't get all crybaby and stamp my feet and post obscenities and threaten to put you on Ignore. If you don't like what I say, then don't read my posts. Same with Mr Dirtymouth Benny and his imaginary studio in the bedroom. Just read Lawrence; he's saying essentially the same thing I am. He just tippy toes 'round you babies. I don't play that game. Ever.

Or why don't you just do the wussy, sissy thing that some of you total punters do and just put me on Ignore (and then have to click back every 5 minutes to make sure you didn't miss something important).

Yeah, here you are again peeing in your knickers again,'cause you don't like or don't agree with another member's OPINION. Mine. You're having a tantrum over someone's OPINION. Boy, that's really F'ing adult behaviour. Having a fit 'cause someone dares disagree with you.

Lately, a few of you have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny, offended, sissies. Oooh, put him on ignore. Like anyone adult could freaking care. Oh, you don't like the WAY I disagree with something? Tough. Get used to it. What a sorry bunch of babies.
I'm the one who should be offended. I have to admit that I associate with this small handful of babies. You know, it's not the DAW Reaper that isn't professional enough; it's this tiny handful of make-believe musicians and that word someone here coined that I love: a few of the pretengineers here. Reaper's not the problem. This tiny bunch of sissy MEN here are.


I'll say it again and shorter this time: Unless it's your best mate who booked studio time where you or benny claim you are a Mixer, and your mate asks you how to make it sound better? Then answer him, if you know. Otherwise, the protocol, the Best Practice, the very best thing (and the smartest of the mixer lot do it) when some talent doesn't know, doesn't understand that you are a just the Mixer staff, and asks you what you would do, you simply look straight at him with the practised, blank "WTF is he asking me for" stare. Uh, and maybe POINT in the direction of the producer or your talent's handler(s). DUH.

I total wish the F that I could say more about my own particulars, 'cause then you total punters would suddenly find some manners, but A.) I don't think that would be playing fair; B.) I try to maintain and enjoy what little privacy I have left anymore; C.) my bio is none of your Fing business anyway; and D.) if you can't discern the ring of truth in hat I and others have said in various threads and on various topics, then you are hopeless and will never learn beyond the sorry little worlds you live in now.

I put up with you because there are some here I really care to share with all the things I've learned the hard way. And you couldn't possibly offend me, tho how hard you do try. I must say I find your little hen party clutch very entertaining at times. Wish so much I could really say more.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:17 PM   #73
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My comments earlier in this thread were made simply informed by my own experiences (in my meagre 2 1/2 years as someone scraping a living out of this - although it's ended up being generally better than I expected). The folks who start going down that route of asking me about the arrangement/instrumentation/guitar tone etc. etc. are usually the same folks who ask me for discounts or send me badly recorded/prepared music to work with. It may be an unfair association but it's one that's led to a decision that's ultimately helped me attract clients that are A) easier to work with and B) don't start quibbling over the price I charge. If someone has serious misgivings about their own arrangement in their own music I find it, at the very least, a bit odd that they ask me, the mix engineer, for my opinion and not any amount of other people they might be involved with. It can be the start of a stressful relationship with that client as they run every single change they make by you for some sort of opinion/approval. My very first client as a pro still does this to me now - I've kind of made an exception for him as he was the first person to trust me with his music and we've ended up becoming good friends but generally I know now not to start happily accepting that I have to spend time listening to and assessing music all day that I'm not paid to do.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:36 PM   #74
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richie: "Did you run out of meds again?? You go through these weird stretches when you are a complete a-hole."

Almost missed that one, richie, 'cause lately you specialise in the personal attacks and meanwhile act constantly offended.

You really don't want to do the personal attacks, like your immature, "You off your meds ..." thing and similar. Why? Cause I'm ten times better at it. But worst for you, I don't get all crybaby and stamp my feet and post obscenities and threaten to put you on Ignore. If you don't like what I say, then don't read my posts. Same with Mr Dirtymouth Benny and his imaginary studio in the bedroom. Just read Lawrence; he's saying essentially the same thing I am. He just tippy toes 'round you babies. I don't play that game. Ever.

Or why don't you just do the wussy, sissy thing that some of you total punters do and just put me on Ignore (and then have to click back every 5 minutes to make sure you didn't miss something important).

Yeah, here you are again peeing in your knickers again,'cause you don't like or don't agree with another member's OPINION. Mine. You're having a tantrum over someone's OPINION. Boy, that's really F'ing adult behaviour. Having a fit 'cause someone dares disagree with you.

Lately, a few of you have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny, offended, sissies. Oooh, put him on ignore. Like anyone adult could freaking care. Oh, you don't like the WAY I disagree with something? Tough. Get used to it. What a sorry bunch of babies.
I'm the one who should be offended. I have to admit that I associate with this small handful of babies. You know, it's not the DAW Reaper that isn't professional enough; it's this tiny handful of make-believe musicians and that word someone here coined that I love: a few of the pretengineers here. Reaper's not the problem. This tiny bunch of sissy MEN here are.


I'll say it again and shorter this time: Unless it's your best mate who booked studio time where you or benny claim you are a Mixer, and your mate asks you how to make it sound better? Then answer him, if you know. Otherwise, the protocol, the Best Practice, the very best thing (and the smartest of the mixer lot do it) when some talent doesn't know, doesn't understand that you are a just the Mixer staff, and asks you what you would do, you simply look straight at him with the practised, blank "WTF is he asking me for" stare. Uh, and maybe POINT in the direction of the producer or your talent's handler(s). DUH.

I total wish the F that I could say more about my own particulars, 'cause then you total punters would suddenly find some manners, but A.) I don't think that would be playing fair; B.) I try to maintain and enjoy what little privacy I have left anymore; C.) my bio is none of your Fing business anyway; and D.) if you can't discern the ring of truth in hat I and others have said in various threads and on various topics, then you are hopeless and will never learn beyond the sorry little worlds you live in now.

I put up with you because there are some here I really care to share with all the things I've learned the hard way. And you couldn't possibly offend me, tho how hard you do try. I must say I find your little hen party clutch very entertaining at times. Wish so much I could really say more.
Um your point is squire?
I asked how much you care whether I get paid performing more than one role. Doesn't affect you, so why get arsy if thats what i do?

You can still be the fantastic ruler of the universe, I can make a few quid doing what I am passionate about and if you like I'll constantly remind myself how much more amazing you are than me, if it helps keep your permanently hole-riddled ego reach a level hovering around flaccid.

I rarely get into flame wars, you can check my history, but beleive me i can invoke word bombs as well as any sod I have encountered so before you talk about whiny babies, maybe just sit back down and work on your whiny girl vocals.

Goodnight.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:40 PM   #75
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There is another pitfall: it takes time to deal with alternative arrangements. Either the studio loses money or the client loses money.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:42 PM   #76
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See my clarification to Lawrence above... I'd surely ask but I wouldn't not ask due to this thread's advice of 'you should only be the mixer and mind your business without using your brain' - that's silly because no one has the slightest idea about those people in that session. The right answer is dynamic in that regard.

Secondly, I agree that too often some engineer himself will be too tied to the rules and what's hot in a different way where he is used to and will very likely be trying to push onto the band whatever the latest, overdone thing is and if it's any band I'd respect, they'd already be out in front of that game and doing the same thing I supported earlier... going against the comfortable grain in order to do something actually creative and fresh.

Anything fresh and creative isn't going to be understood by that type of mix engineer so I get it but I'm not really offering anything other than don't apply rules to any of this other than asking because the answer will be different for every single project. Useth das braineth.
You seem awfully attached to your own rule of never following rules....lol...sometimes rules are ok, believe it or not.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:46 PM   #77
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You seem awfully attached to your own rule of never following rules....lol...sometimes rules are ok, believe it or not.
Nah, it's just the normal problem of the interwebz where fifty different people have fifty different interpretations of intention and whatever is left is trying to find a counterpoint for the sake of finding a counterpoint. But yea, often those who make big differences in this world, do things everyone else thought was bs. And no, I don't really mind challenging people's thoughts with the risk of them not liking me or not liking what I say, that is impossible to escape so...
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:58 PM   #78
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I think people that flow together just flow together, in real time. Like Pipeline says, it happens. That's not quite the same thing as taking someones musical property and altering it outside of their precence without their permission.

And mmv on this, but I wouldn't call EQ'ing anything artistic unless it was way, way outside the norm for musical effect. I'd call it technical. Somewhere along the line audio engineers began to think of themselves as "artists", as or more important than the musical artist, which is part of the problem.

We're not artists in that role, we just have technical skills we trained for that the client doesn't have. Nobody pays money to see an engineer turn knobs (well, except maybe those trying to learn the trade), no audio engineer has an art show, we are facilitators, not artists. Would you call a master electrician or electrical engineer an "artist"? Probably not... except as complimentary slang.

That artist's great song could have only come from that artist who created it, it's his experience as musical art (the best songs) but there are 10,000 guys who can mix it.

Otoh, if you are both an engineer and a musical artist, sure, when things start to flow you can very often become just another musical collaborator, contributing to the art, for sure. I know enginneers who do that, where the client knows they play guitar or whatever and will say... "Hey, lay something down on the chorus, whatever you feel."

But that's not really creating a brand new arrangment.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-17-2015 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:03 PM   #79
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Nah, it's just the normal problem of the interwebz where fifty different people have fifty different interpretations of intention and whatever is left is trying to find a counterpoint for the sake of finding a counterpoint. But yea, often those who make big differences in this world, do things everyone else thought was bs. And no, I don't really mind challenging people's thoughts with the risk of them not liking me or not liking what I say, that is impossible to escape so...
Rebel without a cause, but if the method works for you, then you're doing the right thing for yourself. I have no problem with that.

And yes, a lot of the people who make a difference often think outside the box. But it's also true that a lot of those who think outside the box are just fools trying to be different. There are no rules for thinking, inside or outside the box, you know?
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Old 11-17-2015, 07:36 PM   #80
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It's a results game, fortunately. The Output. Does it work?

Unlike maths class you don't get marked on the working out. How you got the answer is of no concern and is rarely consistent.
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