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Old 03-17-2015, 07:54 PM   #1
Breeder
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Default Previewing notes in MIDI editor doesn't do MIDI chase

Steps to replicate:
  • Open the supplied project (it has Mod wheel data controling volume with JS volume FX): https://stash.reaper.fm/v/23664/midi%...iew%20test.RPP
  • Playback the project to hear the events in that MIDI item - volume should appear normal
  • Try moving the events around to preview them - they will be MUCH quieter!

Expected behavior:

Besides sending the selected note data to preview, REAPER should also send one CC event for each CC control that is right before (or exactly at) previewed note's position for each CC control (MIDI chase). It would also be great to have the option to send all the data that's currently under the previewing note events

Why is this problematic:
One of the most irritating things about is that if the instrument supports some kind of volume control, for example via Mod wheel - it will not get respected so the loudness of previewing note won't match the loudness of playback.

In my case the instrument thought that during the preview, Mod wheel was set at value zero, whilst during playback it was set to 127 - so I got HUGE jumps in loudness...
The only way around this is to probably disable "Reset CC on play/stop" in Preferences

Vote here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=5539

Last edited by Breeder; 03-17-2015 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 07-27-2015, 10:17 AM   #2
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Hate to bump bug report, but isn't anyone else bothered by this?
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Old 07-27-2015, 02:37 PM   #3
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Probably most people are like me - wouldnt ever control volume of a plug using this method, so I honestly dont know if I should care or not.
Not helpful but unfortunately probably truthful.
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Old 07-27-2015, 03:32 PM   #4
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Weird, I like to use CC for expression and volume - it's easier to see where events are in regards to the notes and you don't have to check arrange constantly for some kind of envelope.
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Old 07-27-2015, 05:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
In my case the instrument thought that during the preview, Mod wheel was set at value zero, whilst during playback it was set to 127 - so I got HUGE jumps in loudness...
The only way around this is to probably disable "Reset CC on play/stop" in Preferences.
Hi Breeder, I ran across this way back when I started with Reaper. However, once I unchecked "Reset CC on play/stop", I never really had any more problems.

Is there a particular reason why you don't want to uncheck "Reset CC on play/stop"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
Weird, I like to use CC for expression and volume - it's easier to see where events are in regards to the notes and you don't have to check arrange constantly for some kind of envelope.
Me too, and I can't imagine trying to do it any other way. I've got instruments in Kontakt that have up to 25 and more controllers. The position of these controllers is extremely important, and has to be done in the Midi Editor where you really have intimate positioning and level control of CCs with the midi notes.
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Old 07-27-2015, 05:23 PM   #6
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the problem is that REAPER never chase any event in stop or pause mode.
So if you have, for example, different PC messages and preview or inserts notes
at different positions, you never hear the correct sound after moving the edit cursor, insert notes, preview
etc pp... you always have to do a short play start and stop/pause at the edit position, before you can edit with the correct sound- if there was a different PC message or some other #CCs or simular before the new edit/insert position and after the last stop or pause position.

Thatīs an absolute bullshit!

Thats so easy if i move the edit cursor REAPER has to chase....

But we have the MIDI - a summary of important pending things thread that include this.
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Last edited by ELP; 07-27-2015 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 07-27-2015, 06:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
the problem is that REAPER never chase any event in stop or pause mode.
Thanks ELP, I'm still not sure I understand, if you stop play, the play cursor goes back to the edit cursor. If you pause, play stops and the edit cursor moves to the play cursor. Are you saying the prior values of the CC events are not picked up when you hit play?

Now it's entirely possible that I might have unconsciously created work a-rounds for this without realizing it. I work in the Midi Editor so much, I just go at it without thinking about it. However, for the most part, I think prior CC levels are being picked up from my cursor position.

I should add, I always use full length midi items.

Quote:
So if you have, for example, different PC messages and preview or inserts notes
at different positions, you never hear the correct sound after moving the edit cursor, insert notes, preview
etc pp... you always have to do a short play start and stop/pause at the edit position, before you can edit with the correct sound- if there was a different PC message or some other #CCs or simular before the new edit/insert position and after the last stop or pause position.
Okay, I can understand this is happening with Program Change messages. Back in the old days I used PC messages a lot when all I had was my outboard midi keyboards and modules, but I've never used them with Kontakt or the few other VSTis I've used for the last several years.

Quote:
Thatīs an absolute bullshit!

Thats so easy if i move the edit cursor REAPER has to chase....
Well I'm definitely going to pay a little closer attention from now on, and take note of exactly what I am doing and why, maybe I'm working around it without realizing it.

Quote:
But we have the MIDI - a summary of important pending things thread that include this.
Yes, and I've got things that aren't even there.
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:01 AM   #8
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it happen with all midi events, not only Pr.C. Tod.

Let me better explain.
If you edit in the Midi Editor and the Play and maybe Edit Cursor is at for example 2.0.0
and you simple insert or prev. notes after that position(without playing )
and there are other MIDI messages like #CCs or Program Change etc. pp messages after 2.0.0,
than you never hear the correct sounding if you not first start playing in that area >2.0.
Because REAPER only chase events
at and before the last play cursor position but not at and before the Edit Cursor if you move it.

But that means, you always have to do a short start until you reach the area with the new #CCs,PC etc.pp.

Thatīs not the way the/one EDIT Cursor should work.

REAPER must chase at and before the EDIT Cursor if i move it!
And not only chase if i press also play after moving the edit cursor-
so that the Play Cursor is at the new Edit Cursor position.

So itīs not a good idea to simple edit/insert MIDI messages in stop or pause mode like STEP insert or simular.

Insert #CCs messages over maybe 5 beats and after that insert notes over the same 5 beats...
and you know what i mean.
The #CCs not chase at the Edit Cursor, insert/prev positions.
Only if i always press play after moving the edit cursor.
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Last edited by ELP; 07-28-2015 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Let me better explain.
If you edit in the Midi Editor and the Play and maybe Edit Cursor is at for example 2.0.0
and you simple insert or prev. notes after that position(without playing )
and there are other MIDI messages like #CCs or Program Change etc. pp messages after 2.0.0,
than you never hear the correct sounding if you not first start playing in that area >2.0.
I'm sorry ELP, I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you're saying here. So, keeping it simple, let's just use midi notes and CC1 as a volume controller. In essence, is this what you're saying?

>Lets say we have a half note on both bar 2.1.0 and bar 4.1.0.

>Further lets say there is a CC1 event on both Bar 1.3.0 (Val=127) and bar 3.3.0 (Val=low).

>Play is idle, and the edit & play cursor is at 1.4.0.

Like this picture:


Are you saying, if you click on the C3 to preview it (assuming the edit cursor doesn't move), then hit play and play the D3, it will play at a low CC1 volume?

If so, that isn't the case here.

Quote:
Because REAPER only chase events
at and before the last play cursor position but not at and before the Edit Cursor if you move it.
Of course the play cursor will always be where the edit cursor is unless play is activated, right?

I've also set up a Reaper RPP file for this by just using Breeders RPP. I can find no problems with chasing events with this.

http://stash-new.reaper.fm/24732/mid...0%28Tod%29.RPP

Maybe you could set up this RPP to show exactly what you mean ELP.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:33 AM   #10
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The more I think about this ELP, I just don't think I understand what you're trying to say, maybe my English skills aren't as good as yours.

The only way I can make sense of what you're trying to say, is to reverse what I thought you were saying.

Using the same picture in my prior post, if I play the D3 and then stop play before it gets to bar 3, then click on C3 to preview it, it will play at a high volume of 127 instead of the low volume one should expect.

Vice versa, if I place the cursor on bar 3.4 and play the C3, it will play at a low volume. However, if I click on the D3 to preview it, it will also play at the low volume instead of the desired 127 volume.

Now that makes sense, that is correct and yes, this can be serious, especially for Program Changes.

I think a persons work flow is the biggest factor with a problem like this. Since I don't us PCs any more and seldom preview a note, this is not so critical for me. However, I'm definitely going to give this a positive vote.
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Old 07-29-2015, 01:00 AM   #11
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The problem is really,Tod, that REAPER dont chase after the Editcursor is moving.
REAPER only chase after moving the E-Cursor "and/plus hitting the playbutton".

And that is not the way one EDIT Cursor should work.
Particularly in MIDI Editors.

-
Otherwise itīs not an EDIT Cursor it should named as Playstartmarker Cursor.
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Last edited by ELP; 07-29-2015 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 07-29-2015, 04:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
The problem is really,Tod, that REAPER dont chase after the Editcursor is moving.
REAPER only chase after moving the E-Cursor "and/plus hitting the playbutton".

And that is not the way one EDIT Cursor should work.
Particularly in MIDI Editors.

-
Otherwise itīs not an EDIT Cursor it should named as Playstartmarker Cursor.
Oookay, gotchya, I give up.
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Old 07-29-2015, 04:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
that REAPER dont chase after the Editcursor is moving.
REAPER only chase after moving the E-Cursor "and/plus hittig the playbutton".

And that is not the way one EDIT Cursor should work.
Particularly in MIDI Editors.

-
Otherwise itīs not an EDIT Cursor it should named as Playstartmarker Cursor.
Agreed, but we should also have an option that previewed events chase and preview CC events at their position. Not to mention how awesome would be to have the same for automation.
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:44 AM   #14
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+1 for chasing MIDI CCs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder View Post
Agreed, but we should also have an option that previewed events chase and preview CC events at their position. Not to mention how awesome would be to have the same for automation.
Reaper does chase automation or did I miss something? I'm moving the edit cursor in stopped mode and automated plugin parameters change accordingly.

Last edited by Reaktor:[Dave]; 08-01-2015 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Reaktor:[Dave
'Reaper does chase automation or did I miss something? I'm moving the edit cursor in stopped mode and automated plugin parameters change accordingly.
Actually it don't Dave, if you're just previewing notes with the mouse. It continues to use the CC levels that were last played.
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Old 07-31-2015, 12:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
+1



Reaper does chase automation or did I miss something? I'm moving the edit cursor in stopped mode and automated plugin parameters change accordingly.
As Tod already explained, It's not about chasing while changing edit cursor position, but while previewing new or existing MIDI events.
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Old 08-01-2015, 04:02 AM   #17
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So when previewing a MIDI note, Reaper should not only chase CC events but also plugin automation parameters, shouldn't it?
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
So when previewing a MIDI note, Reaper should not only chase CC events but also plugin automation parameters, shouldn't it?
Yup, the point of preview is to hear how something sounds like in a given context, not isolated from the rest of the project.
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:25 AM   #19
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That would make it perfect!
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:10 AM   #20
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+1 for chasing MIDI CCs when previewing with mouse click.

Hardly a preview otherwise, CC values are what you want to preview most of the time.

Thanks,
D.
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