Online transcriptions suck

[yep]

Like, I imagine, a great many musicians, I often like to just sit and listen to the radio or a random playlist or TV/movie soundtrack and play/noodle along by ear, usually on a bass or guitar. Frequently, I'll hit a passage or a change that is hard to identify, especially with "big" or diffuse piano chords or sparse passages where the rhythm instruments drop out.

On these occasions I will sometimes try to google the chords or "tab" for the song, especially when I don't care enough to capture or purchase a recording to loop and study. And it seems like 7 times out of 10, the online transcriptions are either obviously outright wrong, or else so poorly formatted or transcribed that it is nigh-impossible to make sense of them.

Now, it's possible that the stuff I'm looking up tends to be the kind of material that is intrinsically harder or more ambiguous to fit into typical chord charts, but I mean some of this stuff is really just outright wrong, like calling an obvious E7 chord Dm or something. Sometimes the whole thing is entirely in the wrong key. A lot of times, the chord changes seem to be sort of randomized interpretations of the various riffs from the different instruments, like if the chord is C and the bass or piano plays a little fifth-third fill, then the transcription lists a change to Em. Moreover, the formatting over the lyrics *sucks*-- you can't even tell what these people meant.

And let's not even get started on actual note-for-note transcriptions of solos, fills, etc. There is so much wrongness it's not even funny.

The most disturbing thing is that you can go to a site like, say, Ultimate-guitar.com, and there might be six or ten versions of a song, and three highly-rated tabs, that are not only all completely wrong, but they are all completely different! Who is writing these things, and who is voting on them?!? It seems like the way to get a highly-rated tab is not accuracy, but readability and including "all the parts," even if they are completely wrong!

I can understand how amateurs might have a hard time transcribing recordings, but I am amazed by how confidently and completely wrong they can be! This guy is a perfect example, he is totally, hilariously wrong, appears to have no ear whatsoever for how bad/incorrect he is, yet he clearly thinks he is not only helpful but pretty awesome at it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib62L...eature=related

FWIW, here is a terrible recording/video of the *actual* parts to Stayin' Alive, if you need a reminder (at least this rather grimly determined fellow isn't pretending to give lessons, even though he's technically got the parts right):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlD_J...eature=related

What makes these people post such atrocious transcriptions and lessons? The vastness of their ineptitude is staggering...

[Brad]

Tabs have always been hilarious. I personally can't stand tabs even when they're right.

YouTube is amazing. I too, marvel at just how many play a song clearly wrong and are oblivious to the fact even when the actual recording artist may have a vid that shows quite clearly where his hands are.

When I was learning "Hey Hey" from Clapton Unplugged it was depressing that absolutely nobody got it right.

I find you have to cut and paste. One guy might have the intro down...another the verse etc. A lot of work.

I wish users could delete the bad ones as we find them!

Perhaps they need a link to my signature quote!

[bullshark]

What do you expect from free stuff anyway? Gotta remember that even the original artist often don't play their own song the same way twice. Just listen to Flea bassline live for example, never the same(but always awesome).

What irks me is when I actually pay money for transcription and they are wrong. I remember purchasing a Beatles album songbook from Hal Leonard, was supposed to be as played on the album and two song in it were in the wrong effing key! The whole book was unusable, I got more usable transcription from free website.

I've got 75 000 Guitar Pro files on my HD; most of them are wrong in one way or another, but still useful to glean ideas from, especially when I'm stumped.

The youtube thing is a whole other thing. It's true that people post all kind of crap there, but you do find a jewel here and there on occasion, amongst the tons upon tons of barely digested defecation. What I find immensely funny is when some kid play along a song while obviously using a tab ,and not realizing that the tab is in the wrong key; obviously sound completely awful, what is funny is how they could not see how awful it sounds, even watching what they've done after the fact, to the point of posting the result publicly. Some people are completely shameless.

[arbogast]

It must be a variation of the 'I post, therefore I am' syndrome.

Or maybe it's like my first time playing w a tape recorder (as a kid). The fact that my voice was recorded was impressive in itself, to me, that is.

I often find, after having copied/pasted from diff tabs & checking w the original, that I'd have saved time transcribing the whole thing myself.

[Petimar]

Transcribing is one of the best ear training methods there is. Just do it, you needn't depend on anyone else!

[karbomusic]

but I mean some of this stuff is really just outright wrong, like calling an obvious E7 chord Dm or something.

Amen... It's not even funny how off they can be. I just picked up an acoustic gig in addition to my electric gig. Being that I need to refresh/learn 125 additional tunes this month, a quick chord search can save me major time. However, 75% of the transcriptions are horrible. Luckily I come from the day where ears only was pretty much the only method and I have transcribed by ear for many years. Sometimes downloading a shitty chord chart and correcting it by ear is faster than just using my ear; mostly because I can use corrected verson for future reference if I forget an arrangement at a later date.

The worst are charts where you see things like D# which really should be notated as Eb. Some are very good but most are a complete massacre of the actual progression. It's a real hoot when someone introduces version 2, comments how much more accurate it is when in fact it is even worse than version 1. :-) This practice must be diluting the number people gaining good listening skills..

Karbo

[Fabian]

For not too complex material ReaTune can do the chord transcription for you. Just have to fiddle a bit with the window and overlap (what does the overlap affect, really?). Easily much better than most of the available online transcriptions.

EDIT: Oh.. and lo-pass works wonders to get ReaTune to recognize the chord. I lo-pass around 400Hz

[arbogast]

OT: Nothing beats having lots of books w lead sheets on gigs.
I treasure my fakebooks!

[carbon]

Speaking of transcriptions

http://www.kaspartorn.eu/tabs.html


I'm afraid already that somebody here will find a huge music theory violation.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

It's a real hoot when someone introduces version 2, comments how much more accurate it is when in fact it is even worse than version 1. :-)
Karbo

The real hoot is when version #1 was correct to start with!

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Brad

The real hoot is when version #1 was correct to start with!

It wasn't

[yep]

Originally Posted by Brad

...I find you have to cut and paste. One guy might have the intro down...another the verse etc. A lot of work...

In that case, though, why not just figure it out yourself? I mean, given that we are talking about someone who has the skill to hear what's right and what's wrong, and presumably has access to the recorded song to do the A/B comparison, what's the point of cobbling together bad transcriptions?

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by yep

In that case, though, why not just transcribe it yourself? I mean, given that we are talking about someone who has the skill to hear what's right and what's wrong, and presumably has access to the recorded song to do the A/B comparison, what's the point of cobbling together bad transcriptions?

Hm, leg work? Copy/paste is way faster than entering note per note, especially if one is using a stupid program like GuitarPro, like I do . Not to mention having the rest of the arrangement done for me; if I'm transcribing bass, having the rest of the arrangement there is a plus, it doesn't even have to sound exactly like the original, close enough is often good enough for practice purpose.

[yep]

Originally Posted by Petimar

Transcribing is one of the best ear training methods there is. Just do it, you needn't depend on anyone else!

I agree with this 1000 percent. 99% of the time, though, when I'm accessing an online tab, it's because I was noodling along with a song on the radio or on TV that has come and gone, and there was a chord or transition that I didn't get in the three repetitions or whatever... it's not like I'm going to go out and buy the CD or the iTunes.

What's infuriating is how many kids/beginners must be out there using these things and actually having it work like a sort of reverse ear training. It's also maddening how, even on sites that have a rating system, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to the ratings. I suspect they are mostly based on how many friends you get to vote for your transcription...

[yep]

Originally Posted by bullshark

Hm, leg work? Copy/paste is way faster than entering note per note, especially if one is using a stupid program like GuitarPro, like I do . Not to mention having the rest of the arrangement done for me; if I'm transcribing bass, having the rest of the arrangement there is a plus, it doesn't even have to sound exactly like the original, close enough is often good enough for practice purpose.

Sorry, "transcription" was the wrong word. I meant if you just wanted to learn the song.

But by all means, if you do go to the trouble of actually transcribing popular music recreationally, whether through cut and paste or anything else, *please* start posting it to improve the atrocious quality of online transcriptions!

[Brad]

Originally Posted by yep

In that case, though, why not just figure it out yourself? I mean, given that we are talking about someone who has the skill to hear what's right and what's wrong, and presumably has access to the recorded song to do the A/B comparison, what's the point of cobbling together bad transcriptions?

Maybe you were taking what I said too literally!

Some of the songs I want to learn today in my old age are too hard for me to transcribe from a record. Mainly Delta Blues and various Fingerstyles.

When I said "cut and paste" I was referring to YouTube vids. I'll demo several of a particular song and rarely does each person play the whole song correctly, so I'll save the vids and learn portions of each that are correct. Sometimes the incorrect stuff is a bonus as it might be more interesting. The work is in demoing them.

Sorry I was being lazy and not more clear.

If I was going to tab like Bullshark I think I'd get one of the old Casio digital guitars off e-bay and play it into the tabbing software.

BTW...I learned Signe (Clapton unplugged) directly from the CD and correctly I might add!!!

[yep]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

...The worst are charts where you see things like D# which really should be notated as Eb...

See, that kind of stuff I'd actually be okay with. I have well-regarded fake books that make those kinds of mistakes, and it doesn't much diminish their usefulness.

And it's not like I'm griping about failure to get a note-perfect transcription of a Bangles song or whatever, especially for free and from hobbyists. Hell, even just accurate root notes would be a useful start. In fact, a rough chord chart is probably the best way to do most pop music, especially since people who actually care about and truly want to "learn" the song will probably own a recording, and spend some effort on it.

Originally Posted by bullshark

What do you expect from free stuff anyway? Gotta remember that even the original artist often don't play their own song the same way twice. Just listen to Flea bassline live for example, never the same(but always awesome).

Maybe I phrased it badly, but that's really not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about outright *wrong* structural transcriptions, like where a ii-V-I turnaround is listed as V-I-IV, or worse. Stuff where a Bsus4 chord is called Em (or for that matter G, or God knows what).

I'm not talking about complex solos where a passing diminished seventh is mistakenly listed as a natural seventh, or even the mistaken listing of a first inversion G chord as Bm. I'm talking about stuff that is just outright and substantively wrong, and it's RAMPANT.

I don't think my 70% figure is an exaggeration, and again, I'm not talking little mistakes or technical inaccuracies, I'm talking about listing outright wrong chords in the main progressions of the song. I would link to some examples, but that would be like linking to pictures to prove that punk rock bands rarely wear business suits. It's just everywhere.

Ironically, but perhaps not surprisingly, the transcriptions for more sophisticated stuff with "jazz chords" and the like is often much better than simple pop songs and single-note or power-chord rock riffs.

[schwa]

My high school had a top notch jazz band. For the advanced class the teacher had us each transcribe every note of every instrument on Kind of Blue. We were given all year to do it. That was an amazing learning experience, both for music theory and ear training. There's no substitute for hearing something over and over until you know you have it right.

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by schwa

My high school had a top notch jazz band. For the advanced class the teacher had us each transcribe every note of every instrument on Kind of Blue. We were given all year to do it. That was an amazing learning experience, both for music theory and ear training. There's no substitute for hearing something over and over until you know you have it right.

that's a good album to have to listen to thousands of times, too.

although i find it funny you had to transcribe what were mostly improvisations

[yep]

Originally Posted by dub3000

that's a good album to have to listen to thousands of times, too.

although i find it funny you had to transcribe what were mostly improvisations

That's not only a good album to have to listen to, it's a really good album to have to transcribe. The arrangements are fairly sparse and measured, which makes hearing the parts fairly easy, but the playing is often extremely unconventional and counter-intuitive, which makes it outstanding ear-training. I wish I had been made to perform such a task at a young age.

[matic]

Originally Posted by yep

I wish I had been made to perform such a task at a young age.

If you had, you probably wouldn't be trolling YouTube for BeeGees covers...

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by matic

If you had, you probably wouldn't be trolling YouTube for BeeGees covers...

Man that's low. I'm sure our friend yep stumbled upon that by accident while looking for something else

Or mouse slippage maybe?

[kelldammit]

you just make it sound so....dirty!

[yep]

Originally Posted by bullshark

Man that's low. I'm sure our friend yep stumbled upon that by accident while looking for something else

Or mouse slippage maybe?

Oh, no. Our friend yep was absolutely looking for beegees covers.

I heard "stayin alive" at a bar, and noticed the cool bassline, but had no way to record or learn it at the time.

I came home and typed "Staying Alive bassline" into the Google, and the very first result was that bobble-headed idiot saying "nice..." after playing something completely wrong.

Undoubtedly matic, having transcribed the entire "Kind of Blue" album at a young age, would have memorized and transcribed the entire song mentally at the bar, but unfortunately I'm not that good. I ultimately had to listen to the song on my Rhapsody subscription and figure it out by ear, and I'll confess it took a couple of passes.

[LCipher]

Originally Posted by yep

And it's not like I'm griping about failure to get a note-perfect transcription of a Bangles song or whatever, especially for free and from hobbyists. Hell, even just accurate root notes would be a useful start. In fact, a rough chord chart is probably the best way to do most pop music, especially since people who actually care about and truly want to "learn" the song will probably own a recording, and spend some effort on it.

I find that this appies to a LOT of info in general on the internet - little to no thought, and very little accuracy. Stunningly *bad* and outright wrong. But I share your specific distain for how bad the tabs are.

Originally Posted by yep

I'm not talking about complex solos where a passing diminished seventh is mistakenly listed as a natural seventh, or even the mistaken listing of a first inversion G chord as Bm. I'm talking about stuff that is just outright and substantively wrong, and it's RAMPANT.

Yeah - I mean, get the f-ing key right, give me the progression, and a general idea of where the solo goes and its great. But then again, I can mostly do that - it's just as you describe, most of the times I'm just messing around and want a general quickie overview.

I've often wished that the bands themselves would put out simple chord charts (or more) for their fans. What better way to connect with some of the more "serious" fans interested in their music? What would it take? How much time to just put out a basic chart or ??


Oh - and if you need help on those Bangles ( )songs: just use a capo on the second fret., Solos are mainly in Emin. Oh, and mainly play the solos on the second string, kinda sloppy. And the bass player rocks - good luck keeping up with her.

[matic]

Originally Posted by yep

Undoubtedly matic, having transcribed the entire "Kind of Blue" album at a young age, would have memorized and transcribed the entire song mentally at the bar

Lol, I'd be lucky to be able to transcribe "Smoke on the Water" correctly here in middle age

[Diogenes]

Believe me... I am NOT very good at transcribing. I just don't practice it often enough I guess. What I DO notice about some guys I know that do transcribe, especially for guitar, they have a tendency to find the absolute hardest way to play a part!? It's like they listen to the part and then try to play the entire part on one string only. There are five others on a "standard" guitar...

Dude comes to practice one night and says he has the hook riff figured out for this new tune we were supposed to learn. I watched him contort his left hand into some kind of arthritic inducing nightmare while he played it a couple of times (badly)... So I looked at the notes and said "Here man... make a standard "F" shape, slide into the third fret while picking the "D" string and you'll hear the rest..." It took a couple tries but he had it. Easiest riff... EVER...

I think a crap load of errors on TABS and transcriptions you find online come from mistakes like those. They look/listen for the notes but due to inexperience or laziness, they find them in the wrong places. (or not? Meh... that's close enough...)

D

EDIT: I take it back... the easiest riff thing... The easiest riff ever: Eminence Front - The Who... and Roger Daltrey thought he looked d@#n cool playing it...

[Petersko]

If they're available, pony up the dough and buy the printed books. In my experience they're almost always accurate.

Yes, online tabs suck pretty bad. Somebody needs to institute a tab site with a system so people can downgrade the crappy transcripts until they fall off the site.

[shemp]

Originally Posted by Petersko

If they're available, pony up the dough and buy the printed books. In my experience they're almost always accurate.

Hmm, maybe but I think it's hit or miss. I have had a few and some are seriously wrong. I had a Led Zep book that shows the Rain Song in standard tuning. I also had an Allman Brothers book that shows 7th chords where 9ths were played in some songs. Close, but no cigar.

I have seen some pretty good transcriptions in Guitar Player magazine over the years.

Originally Posted by Petersko

Yes, online tabs suck pretty bad. Somebody needs to institute a tab site with a system so people can downgrade the crappy transcripts until they fall off the site.

this is a good idea

[LCipher]

Well... transcription is one thing I use REAPER for a *lot*. It's the easiest thing to use: throw in an MP3, loop a section, sometimes adjust the rate.

That is one of the main reasons I would love to have some way to put some kind of chord markers or something in a lane next to the wav so I can transcribe (no the current text, image stuff doesnt cut it).

Believe me... I am NOT very good at transcribing. I just don't practice it often enough I guess. What I DO notice about some guys I know that do transcribe, especially for guitar, they have a tendency to find the absolute hardest way to play a part!? It's like they listen to the part and then try to play the entire part on one string only. There are five others on a "standard" guitar...

I find that with people who usually only know the 5 and 6th string notes. They get confused trying to move around. Or they get stuck in some pattern.

Best thing I ever did to help with that was learn to read music and be able to apply it to the guitar. It's a totally different brain process on knowing where to play.

[yep]

Originally Posted by Petersko

If they're available, pony up the dough and buy the printed books. In my experience they're almost always accurate.

Yes, online tabs suck pretty bad. Somebody needs to institute a tab site with a system so people can downgrade the crappy transcripts until they fall off the site.

I certainly agree that published books that cost money should be and usually more accurate. And honestly, I really don't have any right to *complain* that free tabs suck. My intent was not griping so much as incredulity.

With that in mind, the worst part is that there *ARE* voting systems on some of these sites, and they are horrible. The voters are as bad as the transcribers-- they seem to upvote anything with performance notes and solos (no matter how bad or inaccurate), and downvote anything partial or incomplete (granted, most of that stuff is also bad).

But places like UltimateGuitar.com will show 5-star tabs with 25 reviews that are just totally wrong. Not like incidental passing tones wrong, nor calling a D7sus4 a Dm7 wrong, or whatever, I mean stuff that's really just outright wrong and bad.

I genuinely think this is hurting music. I seem to hear an increasing number of legitimately talented and motivated musicians who have severely imperfect songs. Like obviously unintended key-changes or "out" chords because they don't know what to play and they don't think it matters, like each song is just one riff or one chord at a time.

[brownte]

On the few occassions I've browsed for free tabs online, I've often found myself wondering, "Has this guy even heard this song before?"

A friend of mine once told me he tried to learn the intro to AC/DC "Thunderstruck." He owns a guitar and admits that is about the extent of his connection to musical talent. So he went to find tabs instead of doing it by ear.

I think anyone who has played that song knows it is all pull-offs on the B-string. But the tab he found had him skipping around over no less than three different strings with NO pull-offs. WTF?!?!?

The bad tabs out there are WAYYY more of a hindrance to new players than help.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by yep

I certainly agree that published books that cost money should be and usually more accurate. And honestly, I really don't have any right to *complain* that free tabs suck. My intent was not griping so much as incredulity.

With that in mind, the worst part is that there *ARE* voting systems on some of these sites, and they are horrible. The voters are as bad as the transcribers-- they seem to upvote anything with performance notes and solos (no matter how bad or inaccurate), and downvote anything partial or incomplete (granted, most of that stuff is also bad).

But places like UltimateGuitar.com will show 5-star tabs with 25 reviews that are just totally wrong. Not like incidental passing tones wrong, nor calling a D7sus4 a Dm7 wrong, or whatever, I mean stuff that's really just outright wrong and bad.

I genuinely think this is hurting music. I seem to hear an increasing number of legitimately talented and motivated musicians who have severely imperfect songs. Like obviously unintended key-changes or "out" chords because they don't know what to play and they don't think it matters, like each song is just one riff or one chord at a time.

i haven't been on a tab site in a long time. do any of those sites provide space for comments? seems like it would be helpful for all involved.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by brownte

On the few occassions I've browsed for free tabs online, I've often found myself wondering, "Has this guy even heard this song before?"

A friend of mine once told me he tried to learn the intro to AC/DC "Thunderstruck." He owns a guitar and admits that is about the extent of his connection to musical talent. So he went to find tabs instead of doing it by ear.

I think anyone who has played that song knows it is all pull-offs on the B-string. But the tab he found had him skipping around over no less than three different strings with NO pull-offs. WTF?!?!?

The bad tabs out there are WAYYY more of a hindrance to new players than help.

How can someone need a tab for an AC/DC song... Wouldn't that rip a hole in the universe or something? Just kidding :-)

[credit.crunch]

Actually, the first video is correct.

It is a demo of the bass part to Stayin' Alive. The second video has a PIP of the bass part, (played pretty closely to the way the first video's bass part was played). The second video also has a PIP of the GUITAR part on Stayin' Alive, and a PIP of a (sometimes rushed) drum part.

The thing that surprised me is that when I watched the first video for the first time, I was expecting to hear a groovy/funky signature riff from a groovy funky '70s song. Instead, I got a comparatively boring, and what seemed like ill-fitting part that, frankly, I never payed attention to for all these years!

I had to watch each video a few times to "get it." What is missing that I think would have helped the first video's presentation was some sort of reference click track or some means of helping me know "where 1 is."

Just goes to show you that I learn something new every day!

And, I agree that most free internet stuff sucks, but I keep coming back like the pathetic hooked junkie that I am.

[brownte]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

How can someone need a tab for an AC/DC song...

I can understand needing a tab as a new player. But being AC/DC, you'd only need one tab. You just change the title of the song at the top of the page. LOL

[Lokasenna]

I have at least two of the official Metallica guitar tab books with really obvious mistakes in them. The clean harmony guitars at the beginning of "Battery" are so wrong it's not funny, and I think there was some really easy bit on the Black Album that was in the wrong key and scale.

[the all new rob]

Online prescriptions suck too.

You can wolf down five bottles of those pills and your pecker ain't gettin' any bigger....

[pipelineaudio]

I remember the joy of finding a tab on the net to a song I had always wished had been tabbed.

I was thrilled

I was ecstatic!!!

The beginning of the song has a very simple four note riff. In fact the first four notes I ever learned. Anyone with a guitar could hear it and know how to play it, even if they had never played before

But after that was a killer set of leads

So imagine my pissedoffitude when the tabber said " I only did the first four notes, I dont feel like transcribing the rest but it shouldnt take you long"

Or something stupid like that

If I sucked so bad that I couldnt figure out the easy ass chords how the hell could I transcribe a shred lead?

[JimboJones]

Go here

http://www.tablibrary.com/



^^ successor to powertabs.net



Post back how you make out.