Leap of Faith -- instrumental prog rock/metal WIP

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Intercept

Great Rhythm sounds. You wouldn't happen to mind sharing a simple project with some of your rhythm sounds(even lead, clean, etc ? If I could get something like that I might have a lot of fun with it!

Sure, no problem. You're going to need X50 v2 though, and the same cab impulses I used for the freebies. Maybe I can include them with the project (edit: the cab files that is, not X50!). I'll have a look at it when I get home tonight.

Originally Posted by Intercept

It looks like you are using all free guitar vsts to achieve that sound?!?!?! Wow! How did you figure out that? (One of my biggest problems is achieving that fat rhythm sound that doesn't end up sounding like mush)

Uh, no, I'm using just a single amp sim for each guitar "voice". One for distorted rhythm, one for crunch, one for clean, one for lead. No layering at all except for L/R double tracking of everything but the lead. I've never had much luck with layerying different amp sims or more than two takes, it just adds so many more variables it isn't worth the trouble IMO.

Originally Posted by Intercept

As far as the bass is concerned, you can get some fairly decent bass sounds by layering them and using a sampled bass with proper EQ and the right compression and saturation. Vir2 Basis works well when layering it.

Well, it's not difficult finding a sampled or synthetic bass that sounds reasonably convicing when playing just clearly defined single notes. It's just that none of them can do all those little slides and slurs and
inflections that a real player does when moving between notes. That's why fake bass sucks.

Well, I guess there probably are commercial bass libs that can do this, but it's probably cheaper and less work just getting a five string and playing the damn part myself

Originally Posted by Intercept

Anyways, sounds good! If your going for that DT sound I'd say you've almost nailed it. I only find that sometimes the lead guitar gets buried in spots and some of the synths sound a bit too artificial. Pretty minor stuff though.

Artificial... isn't that what synths are supposed to sound like?

[Mordi]

This sounds excellent! What I think I would look at as for improvement is "driving" it more, in terms of compression. Basically making it louder and more in-your-face.

Anyway, outstanding work!

[cerendir]

Intercept, I've attached the project with everything but the guitar tracks removed. If there's one or more of the plugins you don't have, REAPER will tell you.

As for the IR's, I'm not sure they will be loaded properly as I don't know how NadIR looks for the files on a different system (i.e. if the path is hard-coded it's not going to work). But if that is the case, let me know and I'll tell you which file goes where.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Mordi

This sounds excellent! What I think I would look at as for improvement is "driving" it more, in terms of compression. Basically making it louder and more in-your-face.

Anyway, outstanding work!

You don't have a volume knob?

Just kidding, thanks Mordi There's been no actual "mastering" yet, the track is still far from finished.

[Intercept]

Originally Posted by cerendir

Intercept, I've attached the project with everything but the guitar tracks removed. If there's one or more of the plugins you don't have, REAPER will tell you.

As for the IR's, I'm not sure they will be loaded properly as I don't know how NadIR looks for the files on a different system (i.e. if the path is hard-coded it's not going to work). But if that is the case, let me know and I'll tell you which file goes where.

Awesome!!! Your a gift to humanity!!

As far as the bass is Concerned, usually you have to "add" the extras. Some of the bass libs have things like "Slides", "scratches", etc... Of course you have to "program" them in using keyswitches or whatever. Obviously it would be much easier to just record a real bass

(you probably know all this but just pointing it out in case you don't or for other people)

Thanks again!

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Intercept

As far as the bass is Concerned, usually you have to "add" the extras. Some of the bass libs have things like "Slides", "scratches", etc... Of course you have to "program" them in using keyswitches or whatever. Obviously it would be much easier to just record a real bass

(you probably know all this but just pointing it out in case you don't or for other people)

Yep, I know

I'm starting to think maybe I should put the lower part of a 5 string set on my 4 string bass...

[Intercept]

Wow, checked out your other stuff and it is great! Did you learn all this stuff on your own through experimentation or did you study it? (I mean, trial and error or did you read up tutorials/lessons/etc)

I'd like to get into doing stuff like that if possible. Never really put much effort into it because I could never get samples to sound real and it required to much work to get it descend(all the articulations, key switching, etc...).

I can't detect anything bad/wrong/artificial with what you have done and it sounds very pro(just as good as cinema). Hopefully you are making a good living at it!

Your mixes sound very rich and shimmery. Me likes very much! Maybe one day I can do something comparable

BTW, your stems torrent has 0 seeds, do you mind seeding a bit? I'm curious to what treasures are within!

Also, you have some demos of the SSO, could you post some demo projects(I think you said you used reaper) so I(others) can see what you did?

(I hate asking for all this stuff but your the only guy I've ran across that does such a great job!)

Thanks

[sammydix]

prog lover here and this touched just the right spots. i see it was posted a while ago, and don't know how i missed it, but damn I love what's going on throughout the tune.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Intercept

Wow, checked out your other stuff and it is great! Did you learn all this stuff on your own through experimentation or did you study it? (I mean, trial and error or did you read up tutorials/lessons/etc)

Bit of both. Got into orchestral music at the end of the nineties, did everything wrong, then got serious about it and studied every available resource. While experimenting. So yeah, there was a fair bit of trial and error but also a lot of research into the old arcane arts of orchestral music. But I never went to music conservatory, no. And I still can't read notation.

Originally Posted by Intercept

I'd like to get into doing stuff like that if possible. Never really put much effort into it because I could never get samples to sound real and it required to much work to get it descend(all the articulations, key switching, etc...)

It's easier than you think, but at the same time it's a lot harder than you think. For different reasons. I'd say give it a go, but you're going to need a passion for it, an undying love of that kind of music. It's not something you can do just casually.

Originally Posted by Intercept

Hopefully you are making a good living at it!

HAH! I wish...

Originally Posted by Intercept

BTW, your stems torrent has 0 seeds, do you mind seeding a bit? I'm curious to what treasures are within!

uTorrent is running here now, so get it while you can. Upon release I got three downloads in a month or more, so I just didn't bother seeding anymoe after that.

Originally Posted by sammydix

prog lover here and this touched just the right spots. i see it was posted a while ago, and don't know how i missed it, but damn I love what's going on throughout the tune.

Thanks sammydix!

[cerendir]

I can't believe it's been a year since I was working on this. I had to wait for a new version of TSE X50 as it was crashing every five minutes, and by the time it came out months later I had more or less forgotten about this track.

Leap of Faith

I'm back to working on it again now, we'll see if I can manage to finish it this time around.

[cerendir]

Still a lot of work left with finishing up all the various parts and figuring out what the hell the lead guitar should be doing in places, but I've added an outro and the song is structurally finished now.

[Rick O'Shay]

I LOVE this song. I grew up listening to prog rock and it's still my favorite style of music.

A few comments: The piano that comes in at 2:36 is nice but then something happens to it at 3:00 and it kind of wanders off and stops. The synth part that comes in at 3:23 is (for me) the weak part of the song. Things start to pick up at 3:47 but I still don't care for the thin-sounding snyth. The piano part at 4:34 is a little bland and predictable. All the guitar playing is excellent.

I also wanted to comment on the snare. I don't know if it's the samples used, or how it's processed in the mix, but it seems to have a lot of attack but not much decay. As the mix becomes more dense, it loses most of it's character and in some parts of the song, it's hard to tell if it's even a drum. This is actually one of my big complaints about drum sample libraries. The samples sound wonderful by themselves, but in a mix, they can sometimes start to sound sterile and lifeless.

[cerendir]

Thanks for your comments Rick, I actually just uploaded a new version minutes ago that has the "stopping piano part" fixed

I'll have a look at the things you mention. Definitely know what you mean about the snare.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

I LOVE this song. I grew up listening to prog rock and it's still my favorite style of music.

A few comments: The piano that comes in at 2:36 is nice but then something happens to it at 3:00 and it kind of wanders off and stops. The synth part that comes in at 3:23 is (for me) the weak part of the song. Things start to pick up at 3:47 but I still don't care for the thin-sounding snyth. The piano part at 4:34 is a little bland and predictable. All the guitar playing is excellent.

I also wanted to comment on the snare. I don't know if it's the samples used, or how it's processed in the mix, but it seems to have a lot of attack but not much decay. As the mix becomes more dense, it loses most of it's character and in some parts of the song, it's hard to tell if it's even a drum. This is actually one of my big complaints about drum sample libraries. The samples sound wonderful by themselves, but in a mix, they can sometimes start to sound sterile and lifeless.

[cc85]

I started listening to this with earbuds but quickly switched to my good headphones. I really like the mix. Very clear and enjoyable to listen to. I like the part near the end at 6:22 where it comes back heavy but was hoping to hear a screaming lead at that point, I think it would sound great. Great work and thanks for posting.

[cerendir]

I have uploaded a new version with somewhat less anemic-sounding drums (same link as before, you might have to ctrl+F5 to prevent Soundcloud from playing back a cached version), though they might be a tad too overcompressed right now, especially the kick.

Also using the GK Amplification 2 LE bass amp sim for this version... not sure if it's any better, the bass just feels overly tubby.

Originally Posted by cc85

I started listening to this with earbuds but quickly switched to my good headphones. I really like the mix. Very clear and enjoyable to listen to. I like the part near the end at 6:22 where it comes back heavy but was hoping to hear a screaming lead at that point, I think it would sound great. Great work and thanks for posting.

Thank you cc85!

[Rick O'Shay]

Wow, that was great.

There are a few little things I could comment on, but it's really more about personal preferences - so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. ;-)

Back in the days before iTunes and MP3 sharing, this is the kind of song that would have convinced me to buy the whole album.

[cerendir]

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

Wow, that was great.

Thanks! I have uploaded yet another version, for some reason I tend to do that just minutes after you've just commented on the last one. No huge changes, but more tweaks to the drums and I've returned to the original bass FX chain as the GK amp didn't really do it for me.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

There are a few little things I could comment on, but it's really more about personal preferences - so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. ;-)

Please do tell. I can't promise I will change anything, but it would be interesting to know. I'm going to re-record the guitars this week and after that I'm just going to call it a day, because it's starting to feel like I'm just going back and forth between different mixing desicions completely arbitrarily. Which probably means this is as good as it gets given my present skill.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

Back in the days before iTunes and MP3 sharing, this is the kind of song that would have convinced me to buy the whole album.

Wow. That is no small praise, thank you. It's unlikely there will ever be an album, though. It's been 20 years since I was really into lead guitar playing and these days it feels like a chore and takes too damn much time coming up with interesting things to play. Which is a big reason why this tune is taking so long to finish.

[Rick O'Shay]

When I'm mixing a song and things are pretty well dialed in, it becomes not so much weather a particular decision is right or wrong, rather, does the change take the song where you want it to go? While mixing, I like to ask the client questions about things in the song just to make sure they have thought about them and nothing is being forgotten.

With that being said, if you were my client, here's what I would ask you about the song & this latest mix:

The song uses the bass as a supporting part. The bass mostly plays the root of the chords and also works pretty closely with the kick. Are you happy with this? On the opposite end of the spectrum is what the bass might sound like if a band like Yes played this song. It would be drastically different, and would change the feel of the song a lot. A supporting bass part allows the guitars to command more attention. A more complex bass part would add excitement to the low end at the risk of making the song too busy or taking attention away from the guitars.

Have you tried a lower-pitched beefier sounding snare? It might hold up better as the mix gets more dense.

At :40 you have a synth part the doubles the guitar. Do you want to do this that early in the song or do you think it's better to let the guitar establish itself a little more first?

There is a sustained synth part that comes in and out throughout the song. In a couple spots it is pretty noticeable, particularly starting at :59 and 5:11 and 7:20. It sounds nice, but too much can get it the way of the other things going on. Are you happy with the levels?

At 4:07 the synth harmony part drops out for the last few notes. Is this intentional?

There is an organ that comes in at 4:11. I don't hear any organ throughout the rest of the song so it came across as inconsistent, but not necessarily bad. Are you happy with the organ here?

The rhythm guitars starting at 5:11 are pretty strong compared with the lead. (at least on my system) Do you like this balance?

There is a guitar note at 5:15 that sounds inconsistent with how you play other parts of the song. Did you mean to slide into it like that or is it a mistake?

There is some dissonance at 5:20 - 5:21. I think the guitar and synth are fighting a bit. Are you OK with this?

The synth part at 5:37 lessens the impact of the guitar in this section. Is this what you're going for?

Is there something "off" at 5:47 where the next guitar part comes in?

Guitar vs. synth decay at 6:02?

All of these things are pretty minute and I don't think they take away from the enjoyment of listening to the song. But you asked...

By the way, I really like the way you move from the piano part into the synth at 3:21. Oh, and I like this bass sound a lot more than the sound on your previous mix.


p.s. Here are a few links to some stuff I've recorded & engineered so you can decide for yourself if I have anything valid to say. :-)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...5/everyday.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...55/beloved.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...55/waiting.mp3

[cerendir]

Wow! That is quite some detailed feedback. Big thanks Rick! You raise a lot of good points, let's see...

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

The song uses the bass as a supporting part. The bass mostly plays the root of the chords and also works pretty closely with the kick. Are you happy with this? On the opposite end of the spectrum is what the bass might sound like if a band like Yes played this song. It would be drastically different, and would change the feel of the song a lot. A supporting bass part allows the guitars to command more attention. A more complex bass part would add excitement to the low end at the risk of making the song too busy or taking attention away from the guitars.

Definitely see what you mean here, but... it's midi bass. I'm not saying it couldn't be embellished a bit more in places but going all Chris Squire or Geddy Lee on it would make it even more obvious that the bass is fake IMO. That said, the bass doubles the guitar when the hi gain riffage is going on, but I've tried to make it a bit more interesting during the softer parts. Looks like I could work a bit more on this

I hate playing bass on a keyboard though *argh*

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

Have you tried a lower-pitched beefier sounding snare? It might hold up better as the mix gets more dense.

Good idea, I'm going to dig around and see if I have something more fitting.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

At :40 you have a synth part the doubles the guitar. Do you want to do this that early in the song or do you think it's better to let the guitar establish itself a little more first?

TBH I haven't even thought about that. Good point

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

There is a sustained synth part that comes in and out throughout the song. In a couple spots it is pretty noticeable, particularly starting at :59 and 5:11 and 7:20. It sounds nice, but too much can get it the way of the other things going on. Are you happy with the levels?

If you mean the big, washy pad sound, I don't really hear a problem with it other than that it clashes a bit with the strings in a couple of places. I intend to fix this.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

At 4:07 the synth harmony part drops out for the last few notes. Is this intentional?

Nope! The whole harmony needs to be re-recorded, I just haven't bothered with it yet as I'm thinking of changing the synth solo a bit in places.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

There is an organ that comes in at 4:11. I don't hear any organ throughout the rest of the song so it came across as inconsistent, but not necessarily bad. Are you happy with the organ here?

This is quite intentional as I wanted to start moving away from the spacey, synthy sound of the previous part and make things a little more... well, rock-ish. So the soft pad drops out, an organ comes in, the drums move over to the hi-hat and the guitar solo begins.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

The rhythm guitars starting at 5:11 are pretty strong compared with the lead. (at least on my system) Do you like this balance?

I don't hear this. And there shouldn't be any difference in level whatsoever, it's the same as the previous chorus.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

The synth part at 5:37 lessens the impact of the guitar in this section. Is this what you're going for?

You're right, and nope. I don't really get along with REAPER's automation so I'm saving that all that fun for last :P There's a number of places where levels need to change dynamically, e.g. around the 7 minute mark where the guitar lead comes in and plays a harmony. It's too loud.

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

There is a guitar note at 5:15 that sounds inconsistent with how you play other parts of the song. Did you mean to slide into it like that or is it a mistake?

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

There is some dissonance at 5:20 - 5:21. I think the guitar and synth are fighting a bit. Are you OK with this?

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

Is there something "off" at 5:47 where the next guitar part comes in?

Originally Posted by Rick O'Shay

Guitar vs. synth decay at 6:02?

All these are easily explained: placeholder parts There's a few happy accidents in the leads that I'm going to keep if possible, but other than that, all guitars need to be re-recorded.