Ripples?

Lawrence · 07-02-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Starting July 1st, 2009, when you purchase SONAR 8 Studio or SONAR 8 Producer at select music and sound retailers, you will be eligible to download the next paid update to SONAR for free.

Now this is the first actual pricing policy that I've seen that has a good chance of being a direct result of the ripple effect of Reaper. I think there's a strong chance it's directly related. Is this more than an extended grace period? How old is Sonar 8?

I also think that among the more historically popular-with-home-users native daws (Sonar/Cake, Cubase, Logic, PTLE) Sonar is currently the most vulnerable and may be losing the most market share (new users) as a result of Reaper's rapid movement.

Interesting development no?

If Steinberg does this within the next year or so I think we can say... yeah... this is a "Reaper ripple".

I'd be shocked - and happy - if they did though.

Bod · 07-02-2009, 07:31 AM

Damn. I thought you said nipples..

Yes, very interesting. I wonder if any other manufacturers will respond.

Diogenes · 07-02-2009, 07:43 AM

This is interesting for sure. I wonder if Cake were still Cake and not Roland/Edirol if this would have happened? Under a BIG corporate umbrella there are many, many more eyes on the P&L statement...

D

norbury brook · 07-02-2009, 07:49 AM

As I pointed out in another thread, if you're a commercial user and the updates keep happening at this rate,I would have spent well over $1000 on Reaper in the time I've used Nuendo.In this respect reaper isn't in any way undercutting the big boys.

MC

schwa · 07-02-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

As I pointed out in another thread, if you're a commercial user and the updates keep happening at this rate,I would have spent well over $1000 on Reaper in the time I've used Nuendo.In this respect reaper isn't in any way undercutting the big boys.

That doesn't make any sense. If you had bought a commercial license during 1.x for $200, it would have been good until 3.0 was released a month ago, at which time you would have needed to buy another one for $225. Though we gave expiring 3.0 licenses that are good until August 1, so actually you'd still be legit for the original $200.

norbury brook · 07-02-2009, 08:05 AM

Schwa, my take on it is if updates come as they are doing, that has meant in under 2 years I will have bought two commercial licenses (I bought my first at 1.8 which was 20 months ago)so mutiply that by 5 to get the ten yeas I've had nuendo, makes $1000.

I appologise if I'm wrong on this, I've only just come back to reaper recently so was a bit confused about the upgrade to version 3.

MC

Lawrence · 07-02-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bod

Damn. I thought you said nipples..

Yes, very interesting. I wonder if any other manufacturers will respond.

If Reaper had nipples it would be even more popular.

How much are the commercial license updates for Reaper? If you bought version 2 you're good through 3 up to 4 but when you buy version 4 how much is it? Do you have to pay the entire $225 license fee in full again or is there update pricing?

OTOH 60-70 bucks every two years or so for "under $25k" (which I suspect is most people) isn't too bad.

yep · 07-02-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

As I pointed out in another thread, if you're a commercial user and the updates keep happening at this rate,I would have spent well over $1000 on Reaper in the time I've used Nuendo.In this respect reaper isn't in any way undercutting the big boys.

MC

Uh, Nuendo was released in 2000 for about $1,000, IIRC, and is now on version 4. If each upgrade is $250, and you upgraded every time, you'd have spent $1750 on keeping up with Nuendo over the last nine years. And I *think* that represents the least expensive possible upgrade path that includes every version of Nuendo.

If you were to use Reaper for 9 years, and pay for a commercial license every two years @ $225 each x 9/2, you'd spend $1,012.50.

PS I think the best aspect of the leapfrogging update charges (ala Reaper and now Sonar) is that it hedges against obsolescence. All the DAW makers seem to release their upgrades at a certain price, and then some time later, they start cutting the upgrade price and/or throwing in freebies, which usually signals that a new (paid) version is imminent. This in turn always burns a few people, who either bought the upgrade just before the price cut, or who bought the upgrade just before the new version is announced.

The brilliance of simply always including the next version for free is that neither the seller nor the customer has to worry about "timing" purchases or gimmicky pricing. Nobody gets burned, and the seller doesn't get that "dead" period between announcement and release of the new version, when nobody bothers to buy the current one.

Last but not least, the option of simply not upgrading tends to get overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Lots of artistically and commercially successful records were made and are still being made on older versions of software, and I don't think anyone has ever made a hit record that would not have been a hit if they had used similar previous-generation software.

Most of us WANT to always have the latest and greatest, but that doesn't mean that software licenses are sold as a subscription, even though that may be how we think of them and how we choose to buy them.

norbury brook · 07-02-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yep

Uh, Nuendo was released in 2000 for about $1,000, IIRC, and is now on version 4. If each upgrade is $250, and you upgraded every time, you'd have spent $1750 on keeping up with Nuendo over the last nine years. And I *think* that represents the least expensive possible upgrade path that includes every version of Nuendo.

If you were to use Reaper for 9 years, and pay for a commercial license every two years @ $225 each x 9/2, you'd spend $1,012.50.

PS I think the best aspect of the leapfrogging update charges (ala Reaper and now Sonar) is that it hedges against obsolescence. All the DAW makers seem to release their upgrades at a certain price, and then some time later, they start cutting the upgrade price and/or throwing in freebies, which usually signals that a new (paid) version is imminent. This in turn always burns a few people, who either bought the upgrade just before the price cut, or who bought the upgrade just before the new version is announced.

The brilliance of simply always including the next version for free is that neither the seller nor the customer has to worry about "timing" purchases or gimmicky pricing. Nobody gets burned, and the seller doesn't get that "dead" period between announcement and release of the new version, when nobody bothers to buy the current one.

Last but not least, the option of simply not upgrading tends to get overlooked in these kinds of discussions. Lots of artistically and commercially successful records were made and are still being made on older versions of software, and I don't think anyone has ever made a hit record that would not have been a hit if they had used similar previous-generation software.

Most of us WANT to always have the latest and greatest, but that doesn't mean that software licenses are sold as a subscription, even though that may be how we think of them and how we choose to buy them.

Ok I don't think the updates were that expensive,and if we're going to be picky then I should said Cubase instead which is a better comparison which is less than 1/3 the price of nuendo.

As regards to not updating,there are a lot of things in V3 that weren't in V2.x which stopped me from using Reaper.
So to come back to the fold

I have to buy Reaper again as there is no upgrade,you have to keep buying it every 2 years,which is fine if a little unusual,but my point is/was it makes reaper on par with every other regular DAW on cost alone like this :-)

MC

sstillwell · 07-02-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

but my point is/was it makes reaper on par with every other regular DAW on cost alone like this :-)

Only IF you are a commercial user in the Cockos sense of the term. For all the other people that are using Cubase or Nuendo in homes or in studios, a personal license and associated repurchases blow the comparison right out of the water.

Just sayin'...

Scott

Amberience · 07-02-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

Schwa, my take on it is if updates come as they are doing, that has meant in under 2 years I will have bought two commercial licenses (I bought my first at 1.8 which was 20 months ago)so mutiply that by 5 to get the ten yeas I've had nuendo, makes $1000.

I appologise if I'm wrong on this, I've only just come back to reaper recently so was a bit confused about the upgrade to version 3.

MC

So you'd rather them slow down so you can get more bang for your buck?

UncleAge · 07-02-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Now this is the first actual pricing policy that I've seen that has a good chance of being a direct result of the ripple effect of Reaper. I think there's a strong chance it's directly related. Is this more than an extended grace period? How old is Sonar 8?

I also think that among the more historically popular-with-home-users native daws (Sonar/Cake, Cubase, Logic, PTLE) Sonar is currently the most vulnerable and may be losing the most market share (new users) as a result of Reaper's rapid movement.

If I remember correctly the bakers do this every year. However, I don't remember them starting as early as July 1st in the past. This could be an indication of just how deep the recession is cutting folks in all markets. The growth of the Reaper community is of no help to them I'm sure.

But you know, I've seen some really decent deals roll out in the last few months from a number of companies. For instance, MF has Komplete 5 for $399 ($334 with the MINE code). That thing is usually about a grand or so. I know they throw those discounts out every year before the next version rolls out but I don't recall that discount being as deep in the past.

All I'm saying is that it may be more than the just competition changing the playing field.

yep · 07-02-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

...if we're going to be picky then I should said Cubase...

If we're going to be picky and say Cubase, then the versions since 1999 have been (if memory serves):

Cubase VST4
Cubase VST5
Cubase SX
Cubase SX2
Cubase SX3
Cubase 4
Cubase 5

I count one $500 initial purchase (I actually think it was more like $700 retail when I bought Cubase VST5, but whatever), plus 6 additional upgrades at average $200 apiece, unless you went with the cheaper $100 studio version in the last couple releases. Still between $1500~1700. And now we are comparing the lower-tier Steinberg product with the Reaper "commercial" license.

This is kind of a stupid argument to be having, but even if you MUST have every release of the most expensive version of REAPER, it'll still take awhile to catch up to the cost of the premium versions of Cubase, Sonar, etc.

norbury brook · 07-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstillwell

Only IF you are a commercial user in the Cockos sense of the term. For all the other people that are using Cubase or Nuendo in homes or in studios, a personal license and associated repurchases blow the comparison right out of the water.

Just sayin'...

Scott

Thats true, I suppose it seems like I'm in a minority here then that bought a commercial license.I actually only did one project with Reaper, but as it was commercial I did the right thing and bought a commercial license,which I was happy to do to support the cause....I was just a little surprised that to come back and get on board with V3 I had to buy Reaper again as opposed to an upgrade fee.

MC

yep · 07-02-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbury brook

...I actually only did one project with Reaper, but as it was commercial I did the right thing and bought a commercial license,which I was happy to do to support the cause...

Um, I suppose, in a sense, you could consider a for-profit piece of commercial software a "cause" worth supporting, and in that sense Kudos. But unless that was a fairly lucrative single project I don't think you are actually obligated to buy the commercial license:

Quote:

You may use the discounted license if any of the following is true:

* You are an individual, using REAPER only for personal use.
* You are an individual or business, using REAPER for commercial use, and the yearly gross revenue does not exceed USD $20,000.
* You are an educational or non-profit organization.

If the gross revenue from your single use of REAPER was in excess of $20k, then I'd say you probably got your money's worth. In any case, it's still cheaper than keeping an always-updated version of Cubase.

norbury brook · 07-02-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yep

Um, I suppose, in a sense, you could consider a for-profit piece of commercial software a "cause" worth supporting, and in that sense Kudos. But unless that was a fairly lucrative single project I don't think you are actually obligated to buy the commercial license:

Well at the time v 1.8x there was no other definition of commercial other than, if you make ANY money from your recording then that classed as commercial.The actual project has returned me so far a LOT less than $20,000 but I don't mind that,or buying a license ,I was just surprised there wasn't an upgrade.

If I decide to use reaper again on my next project then I'll happily buy another license, at least this time if it's only one small project I can legaly buy a non commercial one and upgrade if things go well,which i hope they will

Quote:

. In any case, it's still cheaper than keeping an always-updated version of Cubase.

well not actually in my case, but I don't want to go into that for obvious reasons on this forum :-)

MC

Marah Mag · 07-03-2009, 07:28 PM

Note that the Sonar offer is for the "next paid" version, which they refer to in the offer, interchangeably, as both an update and an upgrade. There is no mention of 'Sonar 9' or any other specific version.

The details of the deal are complicated (see links below.) But my analysis is that this isn't a 2-for-1 or "next version free" deal comparable to Reaper's. Instead, it's a way of motivating late-cycle upgrades and new purchases to Sonar 8 such that it will bridge the second half of the year, and that the "next paid" update/upgrade will not be the equivalent of 'Sonar 9' (as the offer suggests but never actually says), but will be a relatively minor point upgrade to, say, 8.5.

A few things to note: Though Sonar 8 was first released in (roughly) October 2008, it wasn't really until the end of February of this year that the 'final' and fixed and 'real' version was released; after issuing a couple of hotfixes, specified 8.01 and 8.02, the Feb release was named Sonar 8.3 (not 8.03.)

I believe that if this two-stage release of 8.0/8.3 didn't directly cause a reset of Sonar's established annual release cycle, it nevertheless effectively marked its coming out. (Whether or not the two stage release was planned... not sure what I think.)

The free offer for the "next paid" upgrade/update runs through March 1, 2010, exactly, one year since the 8.3 release.

The free offer is also only for a download version, with a hard copy available for a "nominal fee." (To some extent, especially based on CW precedent, this suggests a limit on the size of the upgrade/update package, thus suggesting that it is not in fact a full-fledged "new" version, but rather an relatively minor point upgrade.)

The offer applies to purchases made post-July 1, and thus leaves entirely unaddressed how those who bought or upgraded to Sonar 8 between last October and this week will get the "next paid" version or what if anything they will pay for it.

Anything's possible. Maybe CW will give those early adopters of 8 a happy surprise. My guess at the moment is that they will be able to upgrade for the same "nominal fee" that downloaders will pay for a hard copy.

I think it's extremely unlikely that what they're calling the "next paid" update/upgrade will be 'Sonar 9' -- unless that's what they happen to call it; but it would not be a equivalent of a full-point "new" version.

My speculation for the last year has been that CW/Roland need to develop a post-Sonar platform, with a new more efficient codebase, an interface with faster "action," and the the kind of "amenities" (both practical and of the luxury kind) expected in modern software.

I think this product and business transition has been in the works for some time (that's what Roland is about) and I think this the latest sign of this transition.

I don't think that Reaper has *caused* these changes, but I absolutely positively think that Reaper adds to their urgency.

Pure speculation (and time wasting.)

Also being discussed here.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1...2&key=#1761655
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1...2&key=#1762292

I wish I didn't find this stuff so interesting.....

nicholas · 07-03-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marah Mag

A few things to note: Though Sonar 8 was first released in (roughly) October 2008, it wasn't really until the end of February of this year that the 'final' and fixed and 'real' version was released; after issuing a couple of hotfixes, specified 8.01 and 8.02, the Feb release was named Sonar 8.3 (not 8.03.)

Quite so. And I suspect this "offer" has more to do with the fact that Sonar 8 sales have been abysmal (due largely to the extent to which the initial release was riddled with serious bugs) than anything else....