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Old 06-14-2011, 11:11 AM   #41
Dormouse
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Q. What is music theory?

A. A set of thoughts and models and beliefs about relationships in music developed in the west over the last x hundred years. What is taught and believed now is not exactly the same as what was taught 200 years ago. It has changed (or 'developed' - depending on your point of view).

Q. Does it apply to all forms of music in the world?

A. Clearly not (at least if you listen to a lot of music from all over the world it is clear). Different things matter in different places. Different relationships work in different places. What is pretty much always true is that the audience/culture a music comes from understands the rules of that music, whether they have know they do or not. If the rules aren't appreciated, the music doesn't really work.

Traditionally, most musicians picked up the rules and the playing techniques from other musicians they saw and heard. They may or may not have been able to describe what they knew, mostly they would see, and hear and maybe be shown. What theory does is allow different ideas to be put down in words (& diagrams & notations) which makes it easier to communicate and pass on understanding of some of the deeper rules in particular. And it is pretty much all derived and developed by people listening to music and thinking about the rules and patterns they hear within it and theorising about what is important. As part of this process though, it seems to have homogenised a lot of music. There are many things - and concepts - that theory doesn't cover; for instance, the cut (an ornamentation in Irish music) is often equated to a grace note, simply because traditional notation does not have a better/accurate way of noting it; maybe in a century or two it will only exist as another word for a grace note. If you listen to folk musics around the world, they are often intensely, interestingly polyrhythmic, but there's much less sign of this in western cultures where theory/notation has been dominant for a long time - if you listen to a lot of the traditional tunes/dances though, you can hear the possibility of the rhythms having been much more complex in the past; notation doesn't work well for complex rhythms.

All I'd say is that listening and understanding is very important. Formal theory may be a way of helping you to do this, but, depending on the type of music you want to make, it might even be unhelpful. A lot of the most theoretically aware classical composers explicitly ditched the rules and theories of their day to explore other possibilities. But they were aware what those 'rules' were.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:28 PM   #42
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From another angle - we are all individuals. For some (count me in) theory is great, for others it is a ball and chain. Let's all play to our strengths and accept those that choose a different path.
Well said sir! I seemingly overlook this wonderful fact of humanity sometimes
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:33 PM   #43
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Interesting reads for sure! *Good* musicians really are brilliant people...
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:03 PM   #44
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My first thought when I saw the title of this thread, "music theory and guitar", was that guitar is a great instrument on which to LEARN theory.

For me, the grid of the fretboard adds a visual dimension that isn't there on the piano (for example). On guitar, you can just slide stuff up and down, which makes things like flat 5 substitutions fairly clear.

p.s. I've been to Minneapolis...
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:48 AM   #45
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My first thought when I saw the title of this thread, "music theory and guitar", was that guitar is a great instrument on which to LEARN theory.

For me, the grid of the fretboard adds a visual dimension that isn't there on the piano (for example). On guitar, you can just slide stuff up and down, which makes things like flat 5 substitutions fairly clear.

p.s. I've been to Minneapolis...
ya, piano i find is easier to show and explain theory to someone, or, it kind of makes more visual sense as an instrument, and it's easier to start playing at first. but guitar is much easier going cross key and transposing, so it's easier later, but the fingering and stuff for beginners is way more difficult.
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:25 AM   #46
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i got to say it might help, and it might not.

Bit of a cop out eh?

It wouldn't have helped me much, cos most guys I played with didn't need it either. We always learned by looking and listening and remembering, that's a good method, if you have it down.

The only other guys I played with needed charts and stuff seemed to need them, and were stuffed without them. It wasn't nearly as much fun, kind of like the difference between riding a horse and sitting in a train compartment
I half agree with this. i think there are different ways of knowing guitar theory as well. I totally agree too, some people need their score sheets, some people are more ear and feel, that's a fact. some people can get along just fine without any theory. some people need theory or they are completely lost. that's true. but i think no matter how talented you are, no matter how good you are, no matter how well you can cope without score sheets, or knowing the names of your chords or whatever, theory will make you better.

but ya, i agree the feel and just being able to go i enjoy more, i prefer the freedom, and i think that method is more in line with music as an art form, rather than music as entertainment, or as a record player before record players were invented, you know, just converting writing into sound.

but i don't believe one bit that theory can hinder or get in the way of your music if you're a non theory typed guy, and all it will do is help to make you better at freestyling and jumping in on a larger variety of things.

but me personally, i find there is actually less theory than you'd think. there are many things that are complicated but to me, some theory is just over analyzing music, and that in depth stuff i find for me is personally useless, but for others that are more theory style they would find this more useful
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:56 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dormouse View Post
Q. What is music theory?
...........
Erm.... I give up.


I can tell you what notation is. It's a sort of StaNav for guitarists
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:15 AM   #48
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Here's how music theory has helped me, as a general musician. In learning chord structure and how chords interrelate, one can very quickly learn a song or write a song. If I am playing covers with a band, and someone throws out the name of a tune, I can ask for the key and play the song front-to-back without ever having played it. Music theory and pitch training made this possible, because I know that if the song is in D Major, and I can "hear" the next chord or progression in my head, it's easy to play. If I never studied theory, I wouldn't necessarily know how parts fit together.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:33 AM   #49
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Here's how music theory has helped me, as a general musician. In learning chord structure and how chords interrelate, one can very quickly learn a song or write a song. If I am playing covers with a band, and someone throws out the name of a tune, I can ask for the key and play the song front-to-back without ever having played it. Music theory and pitch training made this possible, because I know that if the song is in D Major, and I can "hear" the next chord or progression in my head, it's easy to play. If I never studied theory, I wouldn't necessarily know how parts fit together.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:24 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by dkeatscary View Post
Here's how music theory has helped me, as a general musician. In learning chord structure and how chords interrelate, one can very quickly learn a song or write a song. If I am playing covers with a band, and someone throws out the name of a tune, I can ask for the key and play the song front-to-back without ever having played it. Music theory and pitch training made this possible, because I know that if the song is in D Major, and I can "hear" the next chord or progression in my head, it's easy to play. If I never studied theory, I wouldn't necessarily know how parts fit together.
I'm not looking for an argument, but I've been doing that with my band and other mates for about forty years. Nobody ever called it theory.

I don't have to be told the key either. I thought that was called having a good ear.

When I was about 13 I learned a couple of Bach pieces from a Segovia record I had, with out the aid of any score or seeing him play it. That wasn't theory. Theory, or reading would have slowed me down, or put me off..

I must say it helps a lot to look at people though, or sometimes you be playing the right note in a different position (doesn't count for instruments like piano where there is only one position, obvioulsy)
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:58 PM   #51
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Any recordings of that bach? (Not segovia)
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:07 PM   #52
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If you know how to produce the sounds YOU want on guitar....
You know music theory of some sorts.
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Old 06-18-2011, 03:11 AM   #53
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Any recordings of that bach? (Not segovia)
I'm afraid not. It was years ago.

I also learned to play a part of Air on a G string from the Hamlet cigar advert.

I learned from anything played on the radio, TV ads, and anywhere I could, but not by having any score. Couldn't be bothered with reading, but that's cos I'm ADHD
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