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Old 01-20-2011, 11:26 PM   #1
Veech
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Default Tracking "Old School" with complete takes live.. no midi, no punch-ins

Who here tracks all the way through a song in one take, one complete performance warts and all? That's how I'm doing it these days, and it's a ton of fun.

I play guitar, bass and keys. I'll start a project with a drum beat or loop and piddle around on guitar and piano until I collect enough ideas for a song which I assemble into a decent arrangement. Next I'll program and record a drum track into Reaper using my DR-880. Then I start laying down tracks, playing a guitar track, then bass, then a second guitar, and then add keyboard parts and so on. I may go back and re-record guitar parts to match some impromptu keys or bass ideas.. but they are all done in one take beginning-to-end, usually after a handful of practice takes.

Vocals are a little different, those I will tend to punch in where needed mainly because I'm a crap singer and am lucky to get through one verse while staying somewhat on key.

I will admit that I haven't started delving deeply into midi and VSTi's as of yet and a big part of that is because I really enjoy this old-school process. It's about as organic as I can get without recording to tape. There is something to be said about the urgency of tracking live, knowing that the goal is to make it through the whole song without any major flubs. It gives an intensity to the performance, something that I find lacking from quantized midi tracks.

Any others?
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:54 PM   #2
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I recorded some guys like that. It was a 4 piece punk group. They didn't even wear headphones.

It came out great, but I probably won't do it again soon. The bleed just killed me.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:44 AM   #3
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I do it - as a matter of fact, I called one of our CDs (distributed just for the band and friends) "Warts -n- All"
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:16 AM   #4
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I play guitar, bass, a little keys and sing. For our demos and final recordings I've been tracking each instrument like you, in one take all the way through. It has made me a much better musician. I'll give it about 20 tries before I'll punch in if I have to.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:25 AM   #5
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I don't

Usually i just jam by myself, record some fragments & ideas off whatever instrument i'm currently at and build the song from there, sometimes including MIDI fiddling.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:27 AM   #6
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I think this is a good approach. Try to record the song, not the first half of verse 2. I got into a bad habit of this. Fix when necessary - but try to do it all. Each take loses a little magic. In the days of home studios there isn't the sense of urgency so tracking vocals takes days, and days, and days... By take 18, your concentrating on accuracy, not the meaning of the song.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:30 AM   #7
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pretty much the only way i record. no midi, no loops, just rock n roll. to wit: this year's christmas tune - written, recorded, and mixed (including shooting & editing the video), in 8 hrs.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZi8U1SdCs
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:31 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Veech View Post
I play guitar, bass and keys. I'll start a project with a drum beat or loop and piddle around on guitar and piano until I collect enough ideas for a song which I assemble into a decent arrangement. Next I'll program and record a drum track into Reaper using my DR-880. Then I start laying down tracks, playing a guitar track, then bass, then a second guitar, and then add keyboard parts and so on. I may go back and re-record guitar parts to match some impromptu keys or bass ideas.. but they are all done in one take beginning-to-end, usually after a handful of practice takes.
That pretty much sums up how I used to do it. Starting point might be different though, not necessarily a drum beat, but just some sound or maybe just an idea in my head that I try to catch by any and all means. So the "pre-processing" and composing part might be full of different small snippets, until they start to make sense and form a real song. I still use even paper to write down the basic sctructures. Once the sketch is ready, I'll go thru the intruments one by one, recording straight thru live. If I can't get one track right by 3rd or 4th take and I'm not feeling it anymore, I'll leave that aside for awhile and move along to the other parts. I don't mind minor flubs, I'll just fix them later note-by-note or punch in.

I used to play even very rigid electronic rhythms live all the way, no quantizing. Having to do that on keyboard, I couldn't necessarily manage the whole kit at once, so running thru the tracks couple of times. I always recorded rhythms in MIDI though, so fixing bum notes here and there was easy afterwards. Even if rhythm parts had loops, I'd usually lay them out to keys and triggered them live all the way thru.

Doing it this way, getting the whole song recorded took maybe some time. But then again I didn't have to spend any time at all to quantize, groove edit, hassle with grids or try to make dozens of good ideas piled up in 8 bar loop to spread out as something more like a song. Organic, for sure.

As extra benefit, I gained pretty good sense of timing and songs were pretty easy to adapt to real live performances, basically they were that already. And no need to practise playing them anymore.

Nowadays that I have a little more equipment and way more recording and editing power, I spend most of the time recording intro/verse/chorus pieces and shuffling them around while tweaking endlessly options which in the end will not get the songs any further. My productivity must've reduced tenfold the more advanced my system has become. At least in some regards I need to go back.
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:46 AM   #9
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pretty much the only way i record. no midi, no loops, just rock n roll. to wit: this year's christmas tune - written, recorded, and mixed (including shooting & editing the video), in 8 hrs.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZi8U1SdCs
Man, that was cool, fun, nice!!!
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:02 AM   #10
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Great thread!

I play drums, bass, piano, guitar, and sing (any Midi, etc. is always recorded directly as waves).

I track each instrument as well, and always try to get it "perfect" in a single take. It's old school, but it's the way to go. It's made me a better musician. Maybe, if it has to be done, I'll composite to get a best take, but I try not to do that.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Veech View Post
Who here tracks all the way through a song in one take, one complete performance warts and all? That's how I'm doing it these days, and it's a ton of fun.

I play guitar, bass and keys. I'll start a project with a drum beat or loop and piddle around on guitar and piano until I collect enough ideas for a song which I assemble into a decent arrangement. Next I'll program and record a drum track into Reaper using my DR-880. Then I start laying down tracks, playing a guitar track, then bass, then a second guitar, and then add keyboard parts and so on. I may go back and re-record guitar parts to match some impromptu keys or bass ideas.. but they are all done in one take beginning-to-end, usually after a handful of practice takes.

Vocals are a little different, those I will tend to punch in where needed mainly because I'm a crap singer and am lucky to get through one verse while staying somewhat on key.

I will admit that I haven't started delving deeply into midi and VSTi's as of yet and a big part of that is because I really enjoy this old-school process. It's about as organic as I can get without recording to tape. There is something to be said about the urgency of tracking live, knowing that the goal is to make it through the whole song without any major flubs. It gives an intensity to the performance, something that I find lacking from quantized midi tracks.

Any others?
I do that 90% of the time. I write my songs away from the daw. Set up a drum machine/click and track the primary rhythm part which is guitar in my case. Then I start overdubbing other parts. Lead parts / fills / other bits are usually not start to finish because they don't need to be.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:35 AM   #12
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i would if i could - but unfortunately i'm crap at basically everything - singing and playing :-) so it's a necessity for me :-) i even timestretch my guitar solos sometimes... although i've been trying to record if not in one take, at least in larger parts (e.g. single take = half of the song), and i also try to record solos in one go - often ending up doing more than a hundred takes before i get it right...
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Veech View Post
Who here tracks all the way through a song in one take, one complete performance warts and all? That's how I'm doing it these days, and it's a ton of fun.

I play guitar, bass and keys. I'll start a project with a drum beat or loop and piddle around on guitar and piano until I collect enough ideas for a song which I assemble into a decent arrangement. Next I'll program and record a drum track into Reaper using my DR-880. Then I start laying down tracks, playing a guitar track, then bass, then a second guitar, and then add keyboard parts and so on. I may go back and re-record guitar parts to match some impromptu keys or bass ideas.. but they are all done in one take beginning-to-end, usually after a handful of practice takes.

Vocals are a little different, those I will tend to punch in where needed mainly because I'm a crap singer and am lucky to get through one verse while staying somewhat on key.

I will admit that I haven't started delving deeply into midi and VSTi's as of yet and a big part of that is because I really enjoy this old-school process. It's about as organic as I can get without recording to tape. There is something to be said about the urgency of tracking live, knowing that the goal is to make it through the whole song without any major flubs. It gives an intensity to the performance, something that I find lacking from quantized midi tracks.

Any others?
I always play the drums to my songs in one single live take, although they are recorded as midi events and routed to Superior Drummer. I also own 7 guitars, two basses and several midi keyboards, and play most of the parts on my music myself. When I record guitar, bass, or keys I generally do it in sections, because I'm not proficient enough on instruments other than drums to do it in a single take without a lot of clams. I generally will record a whole verse, chorus, or bridge in one shot on those instruments.

I also have several friends who are virtuosos on those instruments either come by to my studio, or via the internet to add spotlight solos to my projects.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:58 AM   #14
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Kind of OT but I thought this 'ol geezer would mention that in the old days of vinyl there were actually albums that were cut DIRECTLY to the vinyl master on the cutting lathe! NO TAPE! It was all recorded direct to disk. They would even wait a few seconds between songs and start the next tune. Yah wanna talk about a high level of musicianship????? Wow............... There were some great jazz albums cut this way, and my jazz friends always liked to remind me that "there are no second takes in jazz".
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:31 AM   #15
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Back when I played guitar and bass, that's pretty much what I did - program the drums since I'm a crap drummer, then track in each part completely - if I mess it up, go back and do it again until it's good enough!

Now that I'm playing keyboards, and everything is in a laptop but my 2 master keyboards, I.. erm...

..still do it the same way! I don't bother editing the MIDI, I "take it from the top". Seems silly and old-school, I know, but somehow it works out. I can get a song done in an evening if I work at it, and if I use both keyboards at once I can get a decent ambient/cinematic/soundscape tune down in record time.

I just enjoy playing more than I enjoy mousing!
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:51 AM   #16
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I wish. I’m a guitar player with basic proficiency so it will be a while before I can rely on “one taking” a guitar part without using looping and editing. I will however develop the song structure on the guitar and basically record a whole song on the acoustic. This will be an extremely rough sketch just to document the song idea. This helps me work out the chord changes for verse and bridge so that when I start building my loops I know where I need to take them.

We have technology now that makes it so we don’t have to “one take” songs. For me it just makes sense to use it.
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:59 AM   #17
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I record the same way. I play Guitar/Bass/Drums/Vocals. I do it one track at a time just like the old days on my 4 and 8 tracks machines. I play keys a little and trigger Vsti's with my cheapo MIDI keyboard.

I think you're the first person, like myself,that I've ran into in years who doesn't use midi programming, etc.

I admit, I do NEED to learn more about MIDI programming.

But, I'm 45 years old and old habits are hard to break.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:03 PM   #18
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Ah yes...the good old days of playing through an entire song and fucking up on the last chord! Starting again...fucking up mid-way. Starting again...screw up. Start again...

No thanks! I actually enjoy the editing power of the modern DAW.

The only exception is vocals. Trying to capture the emotion in chunks doesn't work. So I'll do several takes from start to finish and later comp in the best of each.

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Old 01-21-2011, 12:09 PM   #19
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Ah yes...the good old days of playing through an entire song and fucking up on the last chord! Starting again...fucking up mid-way. Starting again...screw up. Start again...
Yes.

These are the good old days.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:24 PM   #20
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Man, that was cool, fun, nice!!!
thanks.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:20 PM   #21
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I actually enjoy the editing power of the modern DAW.
Absolutely! BUT: the first time I recorded demos with my band, I recorded takes and takes and takes (and takes). WhoTF would listen through (and edit) 17 complete drum takes?
Some weeks ago I decided to re-do some of the songs (mainly due to a different sonic goal), and I went "old school" as in "record a good take and then just punch in where necessary". That's the way IMHO.
The most important thing is to take decisions. Otherwise you will lose all of the initial fun, interest and intention, and the audience will feel that.

Of course working with a DAW, visualised like Reaper/Logic/Cubase – not Radar for example, does have its benefits, but OTOH it can kill the flow pretty quickly when you drag blocks around by eye, not by ear!
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:28 PM   #22
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Absolutely! BUT: the first time I recorded demos with my band, I recorded takes and takes and takes (and takes). WhoTF would listen through (and edit) 17 complete drum takes?
Some weeks ago I decided to re-do some of the songs (mainly due to a different sonic goal), and I went "old school" as in "record a good take and then just punch in where necessary". That's the way IMHO.
The most important thing is to take decisions. Otherwise you will lose all of the initial fun, interest and intention, and the audience will feel that.

Of course working with a DAW, visualised like Reaper/Logic/Cubase – not Radar for example, does have its benefits, but OTOH it can kill the flow pretty quickly when you drag blocks around by eye, not by ear!
I always know when either I or one of the folks who play solos on my projects has just played the *one*. A guitarist friend of mine will keep saying, "let me try again, I can play that better", but I'll frequently put on my producer hat and say, "nope, we're done with that track", because even if not played to exact perfection, the part just recorded has the soul and expression that makes it the one.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:11 PM   #23
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It's nice to see others who work "old school".

For me, that's how I was weaned, all the way from a mono Wollansak R2R I found in the trash, to a TEAC 23xx/33xx/3340 TASCAM 80-8 and so forth.

I play keyboards so I cheat a little with drums using Slate or SD and work from there. I do punch in when it makes sense but I don't cut-n-paste much at all because the musical styles I play (Jazz, Broadway, Big Band, Gospel etc) don't lend themselves to that except for maybe drums and percussion.

It's quicker for me to just play a part over or punch in than to start moving things around.

That's another thing, I rarely use the metronome but freestyle instead which of course drives the cut-n-paste method bonkers.
That's the beauty of DAW software, different methods of work flow can all be accommodated because there is something for everyone.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:39 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by steveo42 View Post
It's nice to see others who work "old school".

For me, that's how I was weaned, all the way from a mono Wollansak R2R I found in the trash, to a TEAC 23xx/33xx/3340 TASCAM 80-8 and so forth.

I play keyboards so I cheat a little with drums using Slate or SD and work from there. I do punch in when it makes sense but I don't cut-n-paste much at all because the musical styles I play (Jazz, Broadway, Big Band, Gospel etc) don't lend themselves to that except for maybe drums and percussion.

It's quicker for me to just play a part over or punch in than to start moving things around.

That's another thing, I rarely use the metronome but freestyle instead which of course drives the cut-n-paste method bonkers.
That's the beauty of DAW software, different methods of work flow can all be accommodated because there is something for everyone.
Hehe, before I bought this,



I had these.



I still work pretty much the same way, but do utilize the automation in mixing that I didn't have with the 1/4", 1/2", and 1" multi-track machines.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:39 PM   #25
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I tend to track old school as well, having learned on the old tascam 4 track tape machine. I usually start out with a click, or just make a simple drum midi pattern to track with. Next I'll do rhythm (usually acoustic guitar), scratch vocal, then bass, piano(if used),lead and then track the acoustic drums. Lastly, I redo the vocal and add harmony or background vocals.
I track much the same as far as I usually play each instrument through the whole tune several takes, then just select the best parts of each. This seems to work well for me; however, I must admit I don't have much experience with midi, I usually just use it much the same as audio, track the song, then edit the "best" parts. I have tried using Kontakt, but so far I am just using it for sounds and tracking the same way. I would like to learn more, but I too am 45 and kind of stuck in my ways I guess.
My workflow seems okay, of course I am open to trying other ways too, the learning curve is pretty steep I've found on getting really good results with midi..
As far as writing goes, I have started using improvisation technique, recording for 15 -20 minutes, listening back 2 X and then finding the golden nuggets for construction the tune. This technique is described in the ebook course "The Songwriting Genius Within you" by Geoff Williams. After the song is complete I usually notate a lead sheet with lyrics and begin recording.
It's good to know I'm not the only one stuck in the past. Ha..
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:58 PM   #26
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I like music that is recorded this way. It seems to have a lot more energy and emotion. It does take better musicians to play this way.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:15 PM   #27
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As quoted from steveo42

Quote:
That's the beauty of DAW software, different methods of work flow can all be accommodated because there is something for everyone.
I try to use all of the above mentioned paths. I am 45 as well, was raised recording on a 4 track cassette, and have a few albums under my belt done in analogue studios. I totally love the "all the way through" tracking discipline. But I also love the flexibility of the modern DAW for things like midi orchestral arranging, complex art-rock (done all by myself) and the ability to decide when it's ok and more beneficial to focus on a part when the part needs to be right. And as far as "old school" goes, I bet "Dark Side Of The Moon" was not tracked with parts played from start to finish.... but still organic and amazing.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:56 PM   #28
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Most of the time I try to record this way, although later we overdub things on top, but we record the basics this way. Most of the recordings I do though are live gig recordings, so those are of course live in one take all the way through! But I agree, that is my favorite way to record and the albums I love best were pretty much done this way as well.
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:04 AM   #29
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I work on a project called www.coachhousesounds.com where I record bands in a basement live to 2-track tape. No overdubs possible. It's a great way to learn not cut corners with your engineering skills. Only so much you can do after the fact.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by 70srocker View Post

I think you're the first person, like myself,that I've ran into in years who doesn't use midi programming, etc.

)
I do know about midi but what I know is really old school as well. I have an Alesis HR-16 drum machine and the matching MMT-8 midi recorder, these things must be almost 20 years old. What I used to do was program my parts then record a midi sync track onto track one of a tape recorder, then trigger the midi controller and drum machine off of the sync track. That was about the extent of my midi background.

I will re-learn midi sooner or later because I sank a bunch of coin into Reason 4.0 and a novation controller. I just need to figure out how it all works with Reason. But until I have the patience to do that, I just grab my guitar, flip on the DR-880 and start tracking.. it's so easy and intuitive.. and fun!
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:08 AM   #31
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Hehe, before I bought this,



I had these.



I still work pretty much the same way, but do utilize the automation in mixing that I didn't have with the 1/4", 1/2", and 1" multi-track machines.
It brings tears to my eyes
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:40 AM   #32
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I do know about midi but what I know is really old school as well. I have an Alesis HR-16 drum machine and the matching MMT-8 midi recorder, these things must be almost 20 years old. What I used to do was program my parts then record a midi sync track onto track one of a tape recorder, then trigger the midi controller and drum machine off of the sync track. That was about the extent of my midi background.
I've owned an Alesis SR-16 for 12 years and I still haven't figured out how to program it. LOL

A friend of mine who is a bass player,is a whiz with MIDI and I always got him to take care of stuff like that. He jumped on the MIDI bandwagon back in the 80's and learned the in's and outs of it with hardware sequencers and all...did a one man band thing triggering all the parts. I should have paid more attention to him.

I know that being able to trigger VSTi's via MIDI programming is something I HAVE to learn to do. Not to mention using MIDI to for automation. As it is now, I'm trigerring vsti's manually with a keyboard and my digital drum set.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:17 AM   #33
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I made my first record in about 1961. A ONE track mono 15ips Phillips pro machine with two mic inputs.
And we did dubs even then.

Now record onto a Tascam 2488 at my buddy`s little home studio and the four of us just play.
But we still need to do the odd drop-in, etc.

Mistakes are a fact of life. Why spoil a great take with an excellent vibe simply for the sake of NOT using available technology?
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:33 PM   #34
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I've owned an Alesis SR-16 for 12 years and I still haven't figured out how to program it. LOL
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:41 PM   #35
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Mistakes are a fact of life. Why spoil a great take with an excellent vibe simply for the sake of NOT using available technology?
When I'm tracking it takes me about five times through before I get the performance down, then I'm good for a couple more takes before I start to get stale. It's a bit of a mind game. I'm challenging myself to make one pass through the song without any major gaffes. But once I've done that, I get bored quickly. So I'm aware of my own "golden zone" and try to capture it as best I can.

Anyway, I will always keep the most recent takes so I will have the option of combining parts from different takes. I just haven't had the need to do that yet.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:15 PM   #36
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When I'm tracking it takes me about five times through before I get the performance down, then I'm good for a couple more takes before I start to get stale. It's a bit of a mind game. I'm challenging myself to make one pass through the song without any major gaffes. But once I've done that, I get bored quickly. So I'm aware of my own "golden zone" and try to capture it as best I can.

Anyway, I will always keep the most recent takes so I will have the option of combining parts from different takes. I just haven't had the need to do that yet.
Therein lies the difference. There`s four of us.

We track bass 2 guitars and drums live usually pretty much in one lump, then I track vocals. And assuming I am in the right key, vocals are generally one or two takes.
The the others do backing vocals, which with retakes and punchins and autotune you can safely reckon on `nother three weeks recording time (juuust kidding)
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:32 AM   #37
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Awesome! Haha, I still have a 2340 sitting here, too. Along with Otari 1/2" 8-track, Otari 1/4" 2-track & Ampex 1/4" 2-track. Oh, and some old Akai consumer machine that hasn't been fired up in ages, lol.

I actually do track some things to tape, particularly acoustic guitar and drums, sometimes vox, but the decks are set up with REAPER & Voxengo Sample Delay to go straight from the repro head to the DAW while tracking. Also, I almost always bounce the final mix to tape instead of just rendering.

There's a studio in Nashville that actually sells that exact service... 100% analog, live tracking mixed down through the desk to 2-tk & done.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:52 PM   #38
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Also, I almost always bounce the final mix to tape instead of just rendering.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:48 PM   #39
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I write and record exactly like Veech does, but am not yet into recording directly to Reaper. I have a Roland VS-1680, and I like to use it for tracking.

But the process is the same. Jam to a drum pattern for a while. Take the best bits and create the actual arrangement of the song, then I program my drum track on my Boss DR-660. Once I get that down on 'tape', it is just a matter of overdubbing everything else.

And I like to mix down to Hi-Fi VCR. Equivalent to a 1" 2-track tape deck.

And I do not like to punch in. I will if I am frustrated due to spending too much time trying to get a good take, but I prefer to record each take from start to finish. Wastes time I guess, but I am just crazy that way.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:27 PM   #40
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There's a studio in Nashville that actually sells that exact service... 100% analog, live tracking mixed down through the desk to 2-tk & done.
I believe you are talking about Chris Mara. I've recorded with him and he is great! Look him up. He has a mobile set-up as well and has done stuff in remote places like cabins in the woods.
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