Old 03-27-2014, 07:10 AM   #201
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Everyone has their limit... even Finn's. I'm sure there are Finn's in jail somewhere there for assault, like most everywhere else.

It's easier to dismiss it on the net in the hypothetical. It's a little harder when a person is standing there calling you a moron for 10 minutes.

Just saying, be nice. It doesn't cost anything.
Quite true, indeed.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:16 AM   #202
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At any rate, back on topic, I have no intention to buy the thing, never did.

There is some good food for rippage in there though... some good design ideas. I really like the way they dock the VST preset listings in the docker, that's nice.

I also like the way the sends work. When you're in the lower docker working on a FX return VST, you have direct access to all the sends for that effect on a vertical panel, all the sends going to that effect from any channel. Really nice.

Below, I'm editing the reverb and as you can see, you can directly adjust any send going to that verb from there, without ever going back to the mixer or leaving the main work surface, or popping up another window or anything ...



There are some good design ideas there... which is the only reason I grabbed the demo, to see some of those design ideas up close.

Here's Thrillseeker below, a synthedit VST. All of it's paramters and presets are automatically exposed in the docker, no need to set any of that stuff up on knobs or whatever, really cool. You can also just right click any parameter to expose it's automation envelope... although the lane doesn't expand by itself...



... and it's presets are also listed there on the main work surface...



So... yeah... it's pretty ripe for some UI design rippage. Some of that stuff was really well thought out... imo.

But yeah, it may not be ready for primetime for many, agree, but the foundation is a really good start, design wise. I'm kind of a UI design junkie and there are some really clever and unique design ideas in there. Couldn't care less how it performs CPU wise or whatever since I have no intention of actually using it.

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Old 03-27-2014, 07:44 AM   #203
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I've overwhelmed my core i7 within 5 mins, using several "omnispheres" and "spires". wtf?
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:45 AM   #204
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running away from The Horrible British Crown
Well actually, the British crown wasn't that horrible. In fact I thought the rubies and emeralds set against the gold were rather attractive.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:53 AM   #205
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They certainly have some VST plugin bug hunting to do.

Neither Melodyne nor Altiverb will load here... though I haven't grabbed the 1.0.2 update. But (I suppose) it's semi-expected, like with Tracktion, that some plugs might not load or bug out on a brand new release like that. No clue how many, if any, of the beta testers even own Altiverb.

But if I were intending to buy it and work I actually couldn't work without Altiverb in this case, since they don't include a good convo, nor without Melodyne really, so it would be a non starter.

Anywho... maybe Reaper and S1 (my other daw) can rip some of the good design ideas there. All's fair in love and daw features.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:57 AM   #206
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can it be used from a thumb drive(portable app)?
LMAO!
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:07 AM   #207
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can it be used from a thumb drive(portable app)?
Yes.

I (because you asked) copied the Program Files install folder from my Win 7 system to my USB key, plugged that into my Win 8 laptop and ran it.

So... yes it can... these little daw war talking points (not you, but LMAO at what exactly?, my other daw runs from a USB key also) don't really hold up, and are unnecessary when there is no competition going on.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:00 AM   #208
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$399 is exactly £239, so not sure why you think one is more reasonable ?
$396 is 239 GBP but only if you are a bank.

Foreign currency exchange just doesn`t work like that in the real world.

P.S. The reference was actually intended as a joke. Apparently your sense of humour is about the same as usual.....
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:27 AM   #209
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It's a CPU whore... like double of REAPER. Total deal breaker! DO NOT WANT
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:37 AM   #210
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It's a CPU whore... like double of REAPER. Total deal breaker! DO NOT WANT
I see ! They want to compete with Pro Tools !
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:39 AM   #211
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I see ! They want to compete with Pro Tools !
I just dont get how this can happen LOL. Should be at the very top of the list with devs...
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:17 PM   #212
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It's a CPU whore... like double of REAPER. Total deal breaker! DO NOT WANT
Is this with sandboxing on, or off?

Running everything in it's own process takes extra resources, which is why Reaper's per-plugin sandbox options are better than BitWig's all or nothing approach.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:11 PM   #213
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Default Oh noooooo Sorry but....

Come on men!!

It's an Ableton successor not a Reaper challenger! (lol)!!
Ok it's a cool DAW, I've DLed it yesterday and looked around for special features like I looked for a enhanced "send" stuff but I didn't find it : it works the same as Ableton. So the routings are the same except that when you focus the receiving tracks, U can access the sending tracks....Ok-ok!!!
I hoped that U can send a track signal at some points in the "Fx containers" or something but : NO!!! No folder track either!!!
My only FR have been discussed in the dedicated forums : a more convinient UI for channel spliting, item automations, a more convinient browser and I think it will be perfect
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:34 PM   #214
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Come on men!!

It's an Ableton successor not a Reaper challenger! (lol)!!
\
This is certainly true to a certain extent.

Btw, this is a very informative and thorough review with comparisons to Live.
http://bitwigtutorials.net/reviews/b...s-ableton.html

The review is a bit biased, as 'bitwigtutorials.net' obviously needs people to use Bitwig first, but still quite helpful in my opinion.

The author's excitement was getting contagious so I wanted to install Bitwig on my laptop to follow along, but sadly it doesn't work on XP.

Yes I know, it's an ancient OS, but this is a 7+ year old laptop that still has some life left, and as they went to the trouble of supporting linux, it's a bit disappointing XP doesn't make the cut...
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:08 PM   #215
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A coworker (at my regular non-music oriented job) sent me an email today about product announcement and link to this site. Never happened before. Is there a big publicity campaign going on that I missed? The program looks neat, but a whole lot like Ableton to me, which frankly I have not been able to leap over to being comfortable with.

edit: oops mean to mention that he caught wind of the program because it is released for Ubuntu support
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:25 PM   #216
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not supporting XP is pretty silly, given the number of XP pc's still out there... and I'd expect, to be around for a long time yet.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:06 PM   #217
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not supporting XP is pretty silly, given the number of XP pc's still out there... and I'd expect, to be around for a long time yet.
Yes, I can understand not "supporting" (i.e. offering official support) for XP, but assuming it will run, at least let it install. I'd venture the XP market is much greater than the linux market, but at the same XP support might require compromises and as it was already a thing of the past when they started coding I can understand not looking back.

I might try copying the installation folder from my desktop and see if it will work, if not maybe a portable version would work, but I'd wait for a few more bug fixes before going through the effort.


I also wish the demo at least offered Saving so projects could be opened when someone licenses the full version. It's hard to justify the effort learning, and thoroughly testing the program if I know everything I do will just be lost forever. To really decide if a program fits my needs, I would want to go through the entire song creation process, and that's just not practical with the current limitations.

Everytime I open the demo, I'm staring at a bland empty screen. Since I can't make a full track myself, I think having a demo song would be helpful to demonstrate some of the more advanced features. Sometimes it's a lot easier to learn from reverse engineering something finished, than starting from nothing.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:12 PM   #218
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not supporting XP is pretty silly, given the number of XP pc's still out there... and I'd expect, to be around for a long time yet.
Brughh. Its 2014! What is it like 15 years? Gime a break...
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:48 PM   #219
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Could someone please explain. As far as I understand Protools, Logic, Cubase and Reaper is one category of daws and Bitwig and Ableton Live and maybe ? Sonar Cakewalk, Presonus, Samplitude, FL Studio, Propellerhead another, the second category of daws?!
I really "only" know Logic (my first daw / Logic3 with Mac Performa), Cubase and Protools, and of course Reaper.
And once I saw a DJ working with a DAW, but I forgot which one, but for sure a daw that belongs to the 2nd category and this guy did not even know what a c major chord looked like, he was just importing Loops or midi files or creating something with the midi pencil in the piano roll and copying and pasting and glueing - a strange kind of making Music, but I suppose a lot of people maybe work that way, especially in electronic music, so I would not call them musicians, but sound portion gluer, they take different sound portions (90% of the Project consist of Loops from libraries) and glue them to a complete mix.
Is what I ve just explained correct ?
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:20 AM   #220
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But it make the FAT beats!

I'm confused by these threads. From what I've seen, reaper (since we are at a reaper forum) is VASTLY superior from top to bottom. Those of us (like me) that have been here from early on have gone through many of the growing pains and reaper is a mature DAW by even the strictest of standards.

It's not ready for primetime yet that I can see (bitwig) and though it has some cool things, I can't imagine (especially as an ableton lover/user) ever wanting it.

So the question becomes, since you can make killer music in reaper (or whatever) already w/o the hassle, why would the price point (which is steep for an alpha program ) make anyone want to switch?
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:46 AM   #221
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Could someone please explain. As far as I understand Protools, Logic, Cubase and Reaper is one category of daws and Bitwig and Ableton Live and maybe ? Sonar Cakewalk, Presonus, Samplitude, FL Studio, Propellerhead another, the second category of daws?!
Ableton Live and FL Studio are aimed at the same kind of users. I think most of the users make EDM and some perform live too. That said, they are capable of recording bands (at least I know FL Studio is) but are not suited for it.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:01 AM   #222
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From what I've seen, reaper (since we are at a reaper forum) is VASTLY superior from top to bottom. Those of us (like me) that have been here from early on have gone through many of the growing pains and reaper is a mature DAW by even the strictest of standards.
I think most DAWs are mature DAWs. But the better you know a DAW, the more all the "hidden" possibilities become clear. I haven't tested Bitwig, but I wound't even think of drawing any conclusions before after testing it for a couple of months. It seems like many people test DAWs by looking for all the features they are used to. But other DAWs can have a totally different approach to reach the final result.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:46 AM   #223
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Default Agree, agree....

@Osflaa :
I'm agree with U!! I've DLed and tested Bitwig. I have Ableton too so I can compare. Another ascpect is the customisable side that I don't know in Bitwig but first U got an Ableton with a "contextual" workflow, when U clic/selet an "item" it shows the inspector for this "item", if U select a track, the inspector follows so...very easy. For the mixer U have a traditionnal view or the ableton-like view...
No midi pool, no region, no snapshots, no folder, no track grouping....I think we can't compare Reaper to Bitwig but Ableton yes for live performance and settings, it's not a matter of what DAW is the best but it's not the same purposes!
But some features already discussed stay interesting!
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:13 AM   #224
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Could someone please explain. As far as I understand Protools, Logic, Cubase and Reaper is one category of daws and Bitwig and Ableton Live and maybe ? Sonar Cakewalk, Presonus, Samplitude, FL Studio, Propellerhead another, the second category of daws?!
Use cases. Although too many people attempt to pigeonhole every daw product into the same category for the daw wars, making direct comparisons of them as if they're all intended for the same use cases, nothing could be further from the truth.

There are some products that kinda straddle all the lines, like Cubase, Logic, Samp, and Sonar, but for the most part many products are good at electronic production or audio recording and mixing, or video post production (DP? Nuendo?), but not all use cases.

Try to remove PTHD from a mid to large commercial studio, as the centerpiece, and insert Reason or Live or FLStudio or Orion or similar and it will result in a major fail for the most part. Try to substitute Reaper for Live, for Live's most directed non-linear workflows, and it fails. Such comparisons are the root of the more irrelevant daw war arguments.

But those use cases aren't familiar with people who don't have them or have those needs, so they compare all products on the only basis they're familiar with... looping and all that... (or whatever their fave does well) which some people actually don't do at all... or tracking bands with 12 cues, which some people don't do at all... or how many VI's you can run and load at low latency, which some people don't do at all.

It's all a big mess of personal perception.

It's a tricky river to navigate for developers because (like in this case) even if they explicitly say that a product is mostly intended for electronic music production, people will still bring out the audio recording and mixing checklists, and start making direct comparisons... even when it's not relevant.

Quote:
it's not a matter of what DAW is the best but it's not the same purposes!
Exactly. Things are mostly only presented as if they actually are to make an argument against something.

FLS fails miserably in the PTHD use case, and vice versa, on down the line.

It's like pretending that a $70k BMW is the same thing as a $70k Hummer... or was actually designed to do the same things... so you can rag on the Hummer because it can't do 0 to 60 as well.

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Old 03-28-2014, 06:39 AM   #225
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P.S. The other thing I observe is that every new product seems to re-start this false assumption that every daw developer designed it, the new thing, with the idea of everyone switching to it... which of course is not even close to being true.

But everyone always lines up saying (over and over) why they won't "switch", every time. It happened to Reaper at 1.x also...

"Meh, looks promising but I won't switch from Cubase yet. It's too young, it's missing too much necessary stuff. Can't work without audio warp and the drum editor. WTF? No elastic audio? How can anyone design a new daw without elastic audio? WTF? No multitrack midi editing in the key editor? What are they... living in 1980?"

Developers like Justin and others design the visions inside their heads and they hope to accumulate enough early followers to generate enough income to keep it going... to end up being something much nicer. That's all. Nobody builds a DAW thinking that every PT or Cubase user will immediately "switch" over at 1.0, unless they're suffering a major delusion.

The non-stop talk of "switching" is just daw war stuff, nothing more. What new developers hope is that - enough - people will see the early vision as something they're willing to financially support... and maybe buy it, find some practical use for it, not toss all their other apps in the trash ... just get on board for the ride.

From a pure and quite literal "bean counter" point of view, if that's the only criteria, there's no way in hell that S1 1.0 was worth $399 or whatever it was initially listed at, compared to the uber deep audio midi feature set of $499 Cubase. But of course, that's not really the only criteria people use when they spend their money.

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Old 03-28-2014, 06:40 AM   #226
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Holy crap, we are now blaming nations and their founders for the world's DAW troubles. Now that's a new one.

"Include MIDI ghosting or we're turning your country into a parking lot"
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Old 03-28-2014, 11:45 AM   #227
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Holy crap, we are now blaming nations and their founders for the world's DAW troubles. Now that's a new one.

"Include MIDI ghosting or we're turning your country into a parking lot"
Incredible, isn't it? Especially when we all know that Satan is responsible for Pro Tools.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:00 PM   #228
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Incredible, isn't it? Especially when we all know that Satan is responsible for Pro Tools.

well yeah... sure we all know that but exactly what nation is satan from? ...
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:36 PM   #229
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So 1.03 is out. Doesn't mean anything to me, but for all you bitwiggers it's prolly got some cool stuff.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:56 PM   #230
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well yeah... sure we all know that but exactly what nation is satan from? ...
I'd wager my 2 cents that he comes from the same area as Jesus. So that would make it Israel, on today's map.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be French.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:59 PM   #231
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Liechtenstein
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:04 PM   #232
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Confuses me also.

If Satan is a fallen angel he existed before Adam bit the Apple but there was no evil before that but since God knows all that is and will be he already knew that Adam was gonna bite the apple and be naked so he must have prepped Satan beforehand so he could be ready to be exiled from heaven and play his role in the drama and...

... it's all very confusing.

Anyway, I say he's probably from New Jersey, or somewhere in the Mississippi woods.

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Old 03-28-2014, 04:32 PM   #233
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Here comes the lounge!
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:43 PM   #234
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Probably shoulda' been lounged two months ago since it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Reaper.

But yeah, talk of Jesus will usually get that done faster... like clearing out party guests.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:13 PM   #235
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Probably shoulda' been lounged two months ago since it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Reaper.

But yeah, talk of Jesus will usually get that done faster... like clearing out party guests.
Back on topic, then: Jesus would have used REAPER, for sure.

If only because it comes with JESUSONIC.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:45 PM   #236
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So 1.03 is out. Doesn't mean anything to me, but for all you bitwiggers it's prolly got some cool stuff.
Just some bug fixes.

I think it would be a huge positive if they continue at this pace, as the frequent Cockos updates is one of the best 'features' of all.

Personally, I would find it hard to switch to twice a year updates and paid bugfixes like too many other companies.


(And I don't see why this should be moved to the lounge considering what else fits in General and the fact that a lot of people are discussing Bitwig in relation to Reaper...)
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:59 PM   #237
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I was hoping for that too heheh...But it's just interprocess communication via the network they are doing. (Internally inside the local machine of course.) I wonder what's the reason they didn't use shared memory techniques like Reaper does for its bridging. Not supported in Java, perhaps?

It is interesting they went with that architecture. I am curious how it works out for them since I am myself interested in doing similar things, provided it can be made to work without a drastic performance hit.
I think their client-server concept over tcp is very usefull for their cooperative multiuser feature announced for v2.0.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:01 PM   #238
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Btw, this is a very informative and thorough review with comparisons to Live.
http://bitwigtutorials.net/reviews/b...s-ableton.html
Great link, cheers PitchSlap!

Has anyone synced Bitwig to Reaper yet?

No rewire support (is Jack syncable?), however Live actually worked better synced via Rearoute (hopefully similar to this method: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=14485). Not real useful to me unless I can pipe it through Reaper in sync.

Some observations:

1. The Clip Launcher in arrangement view (orientated the same way as the arrangement view timeline) looks way better to work with (for me) than Live's session view. Justin should rip that model off for Reaper 5

2. Layered editing is an excellent idea.

3. Unified mapping and automation items also very cool.

4. The GUI looks beautiful! Maybe the best daw I've seen...Bitwig on one monitor for electronic stuff, plus a White Tie-esque Reaper on the other as a traditional daw, sounds a great match. Some people can work with windows 95 looks no problem, but it really affects me...I'd rather play guitar

http://bitwigtutorials.net/_Media/ar...auncher-in.png
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Last edited by Bevosss; 03-28-2014 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:05 PM   #239
Airmann
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Default Bitwig bashing

Though I understand some critics regarding missing Bitwig features I really don't understand certain bashings in this thread. Guess it has a lot of todo with wrong expectations.

Yes, Bitwig is not the swiss-army knife for audio recording, rather it's an up to date DAW for clip/scene based electronic music and sound fx production. I would never do extensive audio editing / cutting with it. Other DAW's like Reaper,Cubase definitely are more usefull here.

But when it comes to audio manipulation via envelopes, modulators and a lightning fast workflow for creative music and sounddesing - Bitwig is TOP NOTCH and ahead of most DAW's out there ! It's definitely missing some features and the price point is IMO too high. But on the other hand: you get nicely integrated synths and fx which alone are worth some money.

And regarding resource and CPU consumption: I've never seen a more slick Java GUI ever. And I have programmed a lot in Java. It's even a lot faster than many C/C++ Applications out there. The devs have my full respect for that. This is a masterpiece !

Also I think that it is not important to squeeze out that last 5-10% of performance in every case. Sometimes it is better to have a solid architecture instead of a tuned feature monster. The Bitwig interprocess client server model allows for isolating single plugins. Means: if one plugin crashes the rest of the system still functions. Just click on that Bitwig symbol and the system will resume work.

So please, think twice, before comparing Bitwig to Renoise. It's like apples and pears.

@Xenakios regarding track height: I stumbled upon this, too. But I think it's missing the zoom-feature by design: it's a pure arranger view/editor, not an item content editor. The missing track grouping is bad, though.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:57 PM   #240
yep
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naji View Post
Could someone please explain...
I had similar questions up-thread. User jnif provided a particularly helpful (to me) response in post #83: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=83

Quote:
"Nonliner workflow" was the paradigm shift introduced by Ableton Live's Session View. Basically instead of a linear left to right timeline, musical ideas (loops, phrases etc.) can be stored as "clips" in a top down grid.

One thing (among many) it allows you to do is use the DAW as an instrument and "jam" with all all the pieces triggering different parts (that all start/stop on beat). ...

The best thing is you can record everything you do onto the linear timeline. This allows for some wonderful "accidents" and makes the arrangement of a song a performance (which you have full freedom to edit later), rather than boring exercise of copying a 16 bar loop 8 times and manually muting different parts etc for a song arrangement (oversimplification).
This prompted me to re-install an old license of Ableton Live, and I (think) I was able to figure out what he was talking about. Live makes it relatively easy to use the DAW in a way similar to, say, a push-button sequencer or loop-triggering drum-machine, where you can "play" loops, sequences, or "items" on the fly, while still doing typical linear playback/recording-type stuff.

To do this in REAPER, I would either need to load in and set up a bunch of separate sampler plugins, and use their respective UIs to trigger start/stop/change, and/or copy/drag/edit/align/paste a bunch of little clips in the track pane, and/or set up keyboard/controller triggers, or something like that.

Quote:
...once I saw a DJ working with a DAW, but I forgot which one, but for sure a daw that belongs to the 2nd category and this guy did not even know what a c major chord looked like, he was just importing Loops or midi files or creating something with the midi pencil in the piano roll and copying and pasting and glueing...
Without commenting on "knowing what a Cmaj chord looks like", yes, I think you are on the right track. Ableton/Bitwig have special features and capabilities for people who use the sequencer/DAW itself as a compositional/performance tool or "instrument".

Pretty much any piece of music that was made in any DAW could be re-created in any other DAW, these days. Ableton and Bitwig each have special features designed for what we might call DJ/loop-based/"beat producer" approaches towards music creation, specifically a kind of front-page ability to start/stop/change loops, sequences, samples, or "items" without the need for interface-switching, dedicated plugins, or linear, time-based pre-planning. You can kinda just throw a bunch of loops and clips in the hopper and play with them in real-time, and record the "sequence", and then edit/change/re-record on the fly, if that makes sense.

Prompted by this thread, I've been playing around with Live a little bit for the first time in years. It's kinda fun, but so far it doesn't really fit much with the way I tend to think about or approach music-creation. I also find some its workflow and apparent limitations infuriating, compared to REAPER, but I'm using an older version, and I don't know it all that well.

I will say that, speaking as someone not much into dance/electronica/DJ-type music, it still suggests some interesting possibilities along the lines of a kind of advanced "comping" approach-- I have long done things like, for example, recording multiple passes of say an improvised guitar line, and then splicing the best or most interesting bits together. Ableton offers some fun ways to trigger "that cool bit" on the fly and improvisationally. I have worked with and recorded DJs and such who did something similar with audio loops, triggering them off a sampler or keyboard-sequencer. I never gave a lot of thought to doing the same with actual instrument parts, but it's got me re-thinking some things...
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