Old 10-05-2015, 02:47 AM   #1
Mudchild
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Default Ozone's Matching EQ - who uses this?

Anyone tried using Ozone's matching EQ facility on their mixes?

Been fiddling with this recently, and am very intrigued. Successfully captured the EQ profile of an admired commercial mix and applied it to my own. Unsettlingly, it DID make it sound better, and translate better on different systems etc. also unsettling was that it was a very lumpy and pronounced EQ curve that was derived and appplied, implying that my original mix efforts were way off base.

It does bring to light a long running issue I've had of dissatisfaction with my mixes, and mystification at how the pros do it. I use commercial reference A/B-ing when mixing, as well as a VRM box, both of which have yielded improvements, but I still feel like I'm pissing in the wind a bit when knowing what to aim for when EQ-ing. I try not to go overboard, I just get some separation, filter out problems, and generally get things out of each others' way. Tends to work fine until I listen on other systems (we all know that feeling, right?) But the fact that this EQ matching business, which seems like a clever but ultimately clumsy and non-artistic way of doing it, came in and improved things significantly (albeit not perfectly), shows me that I'm missing something here. I could tell something was up though, cos I listen to a mix like this (go to 1:35-ish where there's a lot going on) and I can tell that a lot of EQ-ing has gone into it, all those noises and whatnot, and it sounds brilliant. If I tried to do that much EQ-ing, I'd it expect it to come out sounding rather brittle and harsh.

Just wanted to see how others have been using this and any thoughts on this subject overall?
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:42 AM   #2
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I think those types of plugins are okay for learning purposes - to indicate where you need to address - but to rely on them just means you're filling in for your lack of knowledge. You're still 'pissing in the wind' really.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:02 AM   #3
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Hope where on the same page here, if your talking about ozones settings for certain types of music then this is a great way to learn if you are armature like me

Use there settings but don't rely on there settings, just use them as a starting point and start tweaking a little here and there until you get the desired sound you are looking for.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:19 AM   #4
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Yes I've used it. I did as you did, clones the eq curve of a commercial mix, then applied it to mine, then note where the changes were - +3db at 6.2k or whatever. Then I went back to the individual tracks and had a think about what was active in those bands, and tweaked the eq at track level until I'd recreated the sound (more or less). What struck me particularly was it was maybe 9 small changes, none more than a couple of db, rather than anything dramatic. Very interesting. Obviously the next step is to get it right at source and track it better to have those frequencies. In general it was mostly upper mids I was missing.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudchild View Post
Just wanted to see how others have been using this and any thoughts on this subject overall?
Cant say anything about Ozone, but in general about EQ matching (I hope):

My mixing/mastering experience tells me that working with fingerprints from (commercial) songs could lead very quickly to nowhere. Because the spectrum curve belongs to this specific song and not to your song. And even if your song sounds very, very similar, you need to know what part to grab!

So, I found out that it is more helpful to work with more general, genre specific spectrum curves (e.g. Metal V curves). But such curves could give only a hint how the spectrum balance should be.

Nevertheless EQ matching has some significant use cases:

a) It helps with your mix: either it is already well balanced, then EQ matching has "no" influence, or is not, then you will hear it, sic.
a) "Draft" masters could be done more quickly, translating well on all kind of sound systems.
b) It could help to fix a bad listening environment!
c) Finally, EQ matching could be magic if you remaster old songs from 50s to 80s

Usually i tweak the spectrum balance of my mixes ca. 80% by hand, 20% by EQ matching (remember 80/20 rule?).

In any case: EQ matching is definitively used by pros as well, because it saves a lot of time during production, of course if used well (remember sending bad mixes back and forth between mixing and master studio...).
So, nothing wrong with it. Understood once, it could be used forever
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #6
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I don't use Ozone but I have used AAMS, and it's been a huge help. I rarely match another EQ curve exactly, but it certainly points me in the right direction. Here's how I've used it:

1. When I've got things sounding pretty good in the overall mix and I'm not sure why it's not quite right, I run an EQ analysis and compare it to a commercial mix
2. As a safety feature to make sure I don't have too much bass because of my less than ideal mixing space
3. On individual tracks - if my vocal or guitar isn't quite cutting it, I'll do an EQ analysis against an isolated commercial vox or gtr, and make adjustments accordingly.

Obviously, I don't just make these adjustments without listening. The usefulness of this tool is that it gives you a starting point, so if I notice that my vocal has several db less 3K but several db more 5K, I'll start messing around with those frequencies until it sounds better in context of my mix. You have to look at it like a pro engineer taking a listen and saying, "Hmmm - sounds like there may be a bit too much 5K, and not enough 3K."

There has been a lot negative said about this type of program, but I couldn't disagree more. This has been one of the single biggest contributors to the improvement of my knowledge and the sound of my mixes.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:06 PM   #7
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I prefer the EQ Match in Fabfilter Pro-Q 2.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:43 PM   #8
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Yeah I'm starting to formulate the opinion that these things can be a good educational tool, a good method of comparison etc., but certainly not a mix fixer. Definitely handy to see 'how did someone else do it' - not so I can do it the same way, but so I can be informed by what they did - an extension of the commercial reference mix comparison approach. Gonna run with it like that for a bit and see how that works out
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moribund View Post
There has been a lot negative said about this type of program, but I couldn't disagree more. This has been one of the single biggest contributors to the improvement of my knowledge and the sound of my mixes.
Well said! Its all about demystification of mastering process.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:51 AM   #10
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I use it to steal guitar EQs. I'm no studio engineer, and I'll probably never be a studio engineer. But I used it to copy the EQ curve from a few of my favorite songs, and WOW does it work well. Obviously its not perfect, because theres more to it than just EQ, but I had been trying for months to get really close to the rhythm guitar tone on As I lay Dying "No Lungs to Breathe" and Ozone got me 4 times closer in about 45 minutes. What I still cant figure out, is how to turn the EQ curve into an impulse that can be loaded into a cab sim, because theres a funny thing where if I try to use Ozone twice in the same song, it deletes the previous curve that it made
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:16 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
I use it to steal guitar EQs. Obviously its not perfect...
Haha, great! And whilst maybe not perfect, not a bad starting point either?

How are you managing to get individual guitar sounds though, isolated from the rest of the mix? Or are you just matching the frequency region or guitar range?
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
What I still cant figure out, is how to turn the EQ curve into an impulse that can be loaded into a cab sim, because theres a funny thing where if I try to use Ozone twice in the same song, it deletes the previous curve that it made
You could try this...

http://www.voxengo.com/product/deconvolver/.

Good luck on your quest!


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Old 10-13-2015, 06:23 AM   #13
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The problem is that EQ decisions are 100% dependent on the content that is being EQ'd. Give me 30 different guitar recordings and I'll end up EQing every one of them differently. Taking those decisions and pasting them over some other content isn't going to fix the problem; the content is different. Additionally, the EQ curve being copied is NOT the EQ setting of the source, it is the entire *spectrum* of the source which may not have any EQ whatsoever on it and was achieved by means other than EQ such as mic placement or amp settings or player's style.

EQ can't fix ^that, it can only give this impression that it is doing something similar which might be OK for an afternoon of academic exercise but that's not the way to achieve the desired sound. IOW, let's say I did such as a learning exercise, OK, done. What the heck am I going to do now since that curve is the result of everything in the chain? The exercise certainly isn't going to tell me to use the mic off-axis or 3 feet back or a ribbon instead of dynamic as loose examples which are far more likely why it sounds like it does.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pook2000 View Post
Haha, great! And whilst maybe not perfect, not a bad starting point either?

How are you managing to get individual guitar sounds though, isolated from the rest of the mix? Or are you just matching the frequency region or guitar range?
There needs to be a part in the song where only the guitar is playing. Then you play that part on your guitar. Then begin the matching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluzkat View Post
You could try this...

http://www.voxengo.com/product/deconvolver/.

Good luck on your quest!


I have it. I cant get it to work. I followed several youtube tutorials exactly, and it straight up didnt work at all.
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Old 10-13-2015, 06:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
The problem is that EQ decisions are 100% dependent on the content that is being EQ'd. Give me 30 different guitar recordings and I'll end up EQing every one of them differently. Taking those decisions and pasting them over some other content isn't going to fix the problem; the content is different. Additionally, the EQ curve being copied is NOT the EQ setting of the source, it is the entire *spectrum* of the source which may not have any EQ whatsoever on it and was achieved by means other than EQ such as mic placement or amp settings or player's style.

EQ can't fix ^that, it can only give this impression that it is doing something similar which might be OK for an afternoon of academic exercise but that's not the way to achieve the desire sound. IOW, let's say I did such as a learning exercise, OK, done. What the heck am I going to do now since that curve is the result of everything in the chain?
Exactly - as learning tools they're very, very limited and as an actual tool they're little more than a gimmick for inexperienced musicians.
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
The problem is that EQ decisions are 100% dependent on the content that is being EQ'd.
Very good point. And the rest.
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
The problem is that EQ decisions are 100% dependent on the content that is being EQ'd. Give me 30 different guitar recordings and I'll end up EQing every one of them differently. Taking those decisions and pasting them over some other content isn't going to fix the problem; the content is different. Additionally, the EQ curve being copied is NOT the EQ setting of the source, it is the entire *spectrum* of the source which may not have any EQ whatsoever on it and was achieved by means other than EQ such as mic placement or amp settings or player's style.

EQ can't fix ^that, it can only give this impression that it is doing something similar which might be OK for an afternoon of academic exercise but that's not the way to achieve the desired sound. IOW, let's say I did such as a learning exercise, OK, done. What the heck am I going to do now since that curve is the result of everything in the chain? The exercise certainly isn't going to tell me to use the mic off-axis or 3 feet back or a ribbon instead of dynamic as loose examples which are far more likely why it sounds like it does.
Exactly!! Except some of us dont have ribbon mics, or mics at all, or cabinets, or amps. When you EQ match, it gives you a good starting point, a usable sound which you then learn to tweak to your needs. I will never ever own a 5150 or a Mesa Cab or anything with the word Neumann or Neve on it, so I gotta make due with the tools I have.
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Old 02-20-2017, 04:37 AM   #18
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Default AAMS V3.5 Rev 001 Released (Audio Mastering)

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Old 02-20-2017, 02:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBProAudio View Post
Cant say anything about Ozone, but in general about EQ matching (I hope):

My mixing/mastering experience tells me that working with fingerprints from (commercial) songs could lead very quickly to nowhere. Because the spectrum curve belongs to this specific song and not to your song. And even if your song sounds very, very similar, you need to know what part to grab!

So, I found out that it is more helpful to work with more general, genre specific spectrum curves (e.g. Metal V curves). But such curves could give only a hint how the spectrum balance should be.

Nevertheless EQ matching has some significant use cases:

a) It helps with your mix: either it is already well balanced, then EQ matching has "no" influence, or is not, then you will hear it, sic.
a) "Draft" masters could be done more quickly, translating well on all kind of sound systems.
b) It could help to fix a bad listening environment!
c) Finally, EQ matching could be magic if you remaster old songs from 50s to 80s

Usually i tweak the spectrum balance of my mixes ca. 80% by hand, 20% by EQ matching (remember 80/20 rule?).

In any case: EQ matching is definitively used by pros as well, because it saves a lot of time during production, of course if used well (remember sending bad mixes back and forth between mixing and master studio...).
So, nothing wrong with it. Understood once, it could be used forever
I agree.

TDR Nova GE has a match pink noise function which can be used as the ultimate General EQ shape since most mixes generally follow the pink noise curve up to about 2k. The one gotcha is that Matching pink noise tends to make your mix overly bright. So I am wary of any treble boosts when using Pink noise as a reference.

If I use spectrum matching it as a check to find frequency areas that may be lacking or too prominant. Then I either adjust on the master (broad strokes not those crazy EQ matching curves) or go back and EQ sub groups.
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