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Old 02-23-2017, 12:02 AM   #1
VikingGuitar
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Default [5.33] FX settings secretly changing when copying and pasting tracks

TYPO IN POST TITLE: REAPER VERSION IS 5.33, NOT 3.55

I just started experiencing this today, as far as I'm noticing.

Sometimes, when I copy and paste a track with FX on it, the pasted version will behave differently. I'm noticing this mainly as a drastic volume difference. When I open both instances of the effect (the one on the source track and the one on the new track) the settings appear identical. However, if I bypass both instances of the effect, the two tracks have identical volume.

To complicate matters, this is intermittent, and not limited to one plugin/plugin developer. If I have a source track and copy it to three or four brand new project files, some will experience the volume problem and others will not.

This was originally happening with Nomad Factory Bus Driver, and I thought it was a problem with the plugin. I updated to the newest version of that plugin and the problem stopped. However, I am now noticing that it's occurring with at least one other plugin (TSE BOD). I am worried that this is a problem within Reaper that has to do with how it's capturing/recreating VST settings during copy paste.

To make matters worse, this will sometimes happen if I'm just opening a saved project. For example, I have a project with a drum buss, and a child track for overheads. This has a compressor on it. If I open the project, it will sometimes sound fine. If I close and reopen, the volume on the overheads will sometimes be between 8dB and 12dB louder. This does not always happen.

I have reinstalled the newest version of Reaper (5.33) and that has not solved this problem. I have also run a diagnostic on my system's RAM to make sure it's not a problem there.

I've also saved versions of both projects (one where the copy/paste works, and one where it doesn't). I've opened both in Notepad++ and compared the specific VST information for the TSE BOD plugin. There is no difference in the settings/data in the .rpp projects.

I didn't create a .gif because it's too complicated to show in that format. Instead, I created a video, which can be seen here:

https://youtu.be/Jyq5ASl9CUU

SYSTEM SPECS:
Windows 7 64 bit Professional
Service Pack 1
Intel i5 dual core 3.4 GHz
32 GB Ram
Reaper 5.33
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Last edited by VikingGuitar; 02-23-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:59 AM   #2
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Thanks for the detailed video. My first thought would be this is caused by inappropriate use of static data in the plugin (a plugin bug, basically), which is a fairly common category of bug, but of course it's impossible to know for sure from a screen capture.

When you close and then reload the versions of the saved project with different playback volumes, does the problem correct itself? I expect that it does, given that you said the RPPs appear to be identical.

If you have a specific plugin and project context that can reliably recreate the problem, please share the RPP with us, either by posting it here or emailing to support at cockos, and give instructions on exactly what to copy and paste to see the problem. If we can recreate it here we can figure out exactly what's causing it.
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Old 02-23-2017, 07:49 AM   #3
VikingGuitar
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Hi schwa. Thanks for the quick response.

I've stripped away some other elements from the project and am attaching three .rpp files. The only plugin involved is TSE BOD (a stompbox bass distortion plugin), which you can download from https://www.tseaudio.com/files/TSE_BOD_VST_win64.zip.

Here is a description of the three .rpp files:

- "Copy Paste Error - Source Project.rpp" is the initial file that I created. It has a single track that runs a single .wav file (NYBGH bass.wav) with a single instance of TSE BOD. When playing this file, the track meter hits approximately -20dB. This is how the project should function, and represents the sound as I have intentionally mixed it.

- "Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.rpp" was created by opening a new, empty project in a new tab, copying the track from the "Source Project" .rpp, and pasting it into this file. All settings are identical. When playing this file, the track meter hits approximately -31dB. The sound is noticeably different (there is little to no distortion effect.) When I bypass the TSE BOD plugin, the volume jumps back up to where it should be.

- "Copy Paste Error - Paste 2.rpp" was created in exactly the same was as "Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.rpp". I had "Source Project" open, opened a new, empty project in a new tab, and copied/pasted the track from "Source Project" into "Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.rpp". When played back, "Copy Paste Error - Paste 2.rpp" sounds and behaves identical to "Copy Paste Error - Source Project" (meter his -20dB, sound of the track is as initially mixed).

To summarize:
- "Source Project.rpp" sounds as it should.
- By creating a new project and copying the single track from "Source Project" to the new project, the new project behaves differently.
- By creating another new project and copying the single track from "Source Project" to the newest project, the newest project behaves as expected.

Further information:
- After additional testing, it appears that ALL subsequent new projects will behave as the source project. It appears that only the first copy/paste project will behave differently (I can't quite verify this, but it seems to be the case).

- If I delete the pasted tracks in "Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.rpp", re-copy them from "Source Project" and re-paste them in "Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.rpp", the problem still exists. This will be the case even if I have already successfully copy/pasted into "Cope Paste Error - Paste 2.rpp".

- I am very hesitant to determine that this is a problem that is isolated to TSE BOD. I noticed this problem because it was happening with an unrelated plugin by a different developer. I have also tried using the most recent version of TSE BOD, but am experiencing the same behavior.

NOTE: The attached files are ONLY the .rpp files. If you want to download the full project with the .wav file, you can do so from this dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7xe2ygmmvw...Error.zip?dl=0
Attached Files
File Type: rpp Copy Paste Error - Source Project.RPP (3.5 KB, 206 views)
File Type: rpp Copy Paste Error - Paste 1.RPP (3.1 KB, 193 views)
File Type: rpp Copy Paste Error - Paste 2.RPP (3.1 KB, 188 views)
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Last edited by VikingGuitar; 02-23-2017 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:52 AM   #4
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Quick chime-in:

I'm running v5.33 - February 6 2017

I tested your files with the wav, and I hear the problem in the test files. After multiple attempts to recopy/paste into those same test sessions, it works fine - all are the same.

I created a dozen or so new projects (ctrl+alt+N 12 times), changed default tempo on new projects, copied from original project, pasted across the board.

A FEW were different than each other, but ALL were different than your original files.

Original file metered around -20.7db.
The two test sessions you made also run at -20.7db.
One of my new copy/pastes was around -14.7db and another at -16.5db.

Weird.

Here's a video. https://www.screencast.com/t/CV3aRMvW (Sorry about the player. The download flash message shouldn't actually download anything - just enable the video to play.)
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Old 02-23-2017, 10:55 AM   #5
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VikingGuitar, if you close REAPER and then reopen it and open the Paste 1 project, does it still play back differently from the source project?
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:16 AM   #6
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Yes, I reopened all three Reaper projects this morning. "Source Project" and "Paste 2" were functioning properly, "Paste 1" was still playing at reduced volume and without the distortion effect (identical to last night when I posted here.)

Additionally, I've been checking other information sources. The fellow that runs The Reaper Blog mentioned that it might be an issue with the FX being bridged. I haven't had a chance to test this yet, but thought it might provide some insight for you while looking into this.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
VikingGuitar, if you close REAPER and then reopen it and open the Paste 1 project, does it still play back differently from the source project?
... the answer is no. The bug is that the second instance of this plugin produces different output from the first instance of the plugin. This happens even if you load the source project twice, or if you load the source project and then copy the FX to a new track in the same project. It also happens if you reset the plugin settings to default. The second instance of the plugin, within the same process (same project or different project tab), produces different output from the first.

This really feels like a plugin bug. I can verify that REAPER is sending the plugin the exact same state data in the same order. It is a common category of error to unintentionally share data between multiple instances of the same plugin. I know that's not a satisfying answer.
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:26 AM   #8
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Gotcha. For the time being, I'll work around it and keep my eyes open to see if it starts happening across different plugins.

I really appreciate the time and help! For what it's worth, this is the first REAL problem I've had with Reaper since I started using it in 2008 (and it's not even a catastrophic problem; just a larger than normal nuisance, and probably not related to Reaper at all). Thank you!
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Old 02-23-2017, 11:46 AM   #9
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Just out of curiousity...

Would enabling "run as dedicated process" prevent the unintended 'data sharing between instances' ?
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:56 PM   #10
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I've upgraded to the newest version of TSE BOD after getting a tip on another forum that the older versions had problems retaining parameters. Since then, I've tested a bunch, and everything seems to be working fine. Seems I was unlucky enough to have TWO VSTs that were separately causing an issue, resulting in what appeared to be a Reaper problem. I'm still checking that this was fully, 100% what was causing it, but initial testing is encouraging.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:19 AM   #11
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I don't know if it's the same problem, but a few months ago I experienced a similar event. Basically, I wanted to create a parallel compression bus for my vocals, so I created a new track and created a send. The problem was that even putting the fader at unity gain I couldn't get the same volume of the original track. I'm now at work and don't have my laptop with me but I might check again this evening.

Might be the same kind of problem?
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