DAW use = BACK PROBLEMS!!

[Mudchild]

Well my back problems are getting worse.

I'm 36, fit and healthy, and I use my computer a lot for (music) work. A lot.

I'm becoming increasingly subject to back problems, clearly brought on by sitting at a computer and using a mouse.

I can't really figure out where the problem lies. My body seems to be all at right angles, like they recommend. I use an ergonomic foot rest to lift my feet off the floor. I use lumbar support on my chair for back support. I use a KEM trackball. I exercise a lot.

But I get tremendous problems with knotted and tense muscles in my neck, back and shoulders.

I do regularly go to a sports masseuse - by the way, anyone suffering similar problems, get a good sports massage - it is a revelation how good they are at relieving knots and tense muscles. It really does solve the problem... but it can't prevent it from coming back!

Clearly I need to re-think the way I sit, but I don't really know where to start or what the problem really is. Surely you DAW-freaks out there must have similar experiences? Well lets get talking about it! It's driving me nuts and costing a fortune in massage fees!

Ok, begin.

Mud

[edkilp]

Try a nice chair with a high, straight back. I get sore in the neck and upper back if I sit there too long holding my head up. Also, I alleviated a lot of the problem when I elevated my monitors about 6 inches so I was looking straight at them instead of having to look down. I know this is different for everybody but for me the straight back chair and raised monitors helps a lot. Good luck!

Edward

[RobertP]

kneeling chair - very good for me

http://tinyurl.com/pkghs3j

[edkilp]

How does that work? Never saw one of those before.

[Seventh]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6187080.stm

You saw this right?

[bladerunner]

hi Mudchild, Your post could be describing my exact experience over the last 5 or 6 years. I struggled with all sorts of aches and pains even after following all the rules ie. mouse arm bent at 90 degrees and parallel to the floor, mousepad with wrist support, screen at correct height etc. It was only solved when i bought myself a decent chair that's designed for people who sit at the computer all day. I got myself a Kinnarps 6000 and all of my neck/wrist/elbow/shoulder problems gradually disappeared. Not only does it support your backside much better than a cheap office chair, it features 10 or 11 different adjustments - i found that the key is to keep changing your position slightly throughout the day. I will change the tilt of the chair every now and again, the height of the backrest by and an inch or two every now and again. Check out chairs by Kinnarps, Herman Miller, Steelcase, Humanscale - there are others too.

[edkilp]

Originally Posted by Seventh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6187080.stm

You saw this right?

That would feel like laying down to me. I'd never be able to sit like that for any length of time.

[Stu]

I suffered with back pain for many years, made worse from two seperate actual back injuries I sustained from manual work. My day job now has me sitting down for less than 20 mins out of each 8 hour shift, and I have to say my back has never felt better! I realise this probably wont help you if your job involves sitting at a desk, and you have my sympathy - there's not much that's worse than back pain.

My only suggestion is that you limit as much as possible the amount of time you spend in a static seated position, try altering the height and angle of your chair often and make sure to stand up and walk around frequently to keep your joints and back from becoming stiff. I hope you feel better.

[vala]

Originally Posted by Mudchild

But I get tremendous problems with knotted and tense muscles in my neck, back and shoulders.

same here, it happens when the table is too high or too low.

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by Seventh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6187080.stm

You saw this right?

Yay! I've spent 8-10 hours per day for the last 15 years sitting in office chairs and this is exactly how I sit. Never had any problems whatsoever, and it is extremely comfortable. As a bonus, lots of times, people don't know I'm at work because I'm so low under my cube.

Lowrider.

[LCipher]

Originally Posted by misc100

kneeling chair - very good for me

http://tinyurl.com/pkghs3j

Been thinking of that - looks like a good idea. I hear that there are even 'standing' desks that are better than sitting.

Wonder how that kneeling chair would work for guitar? Seems like its close to a 'standing' position - which could be good for practice anyway.

Has this made a big difference with you?

[Magicbuss]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer but here's the harsh reality of desk work as it relates to your health

https://www.google.com/search?q=desk...ient=firefox-a

People who sit for hours a day live shorter, less healthy lives than people who are active most of the day.

Speaking as a 42 year old IT guy who makes music in front of a PC in his spare time this is a bit distressing.

[G-Sun]

It's very good practice for everyone that sits in front of a computer to regularly:

- Observe your body-position, seat, legs, hands, shoulders (are they high?)
- Observe any tension, any muscles that's continuously on hold?
- Observe your eyes, are they ok? Do they need a rest from the screen?
Roll your shoulders, look out the window, stretch your arms and body, have a few steps walk

Best

[FKAB]

Yes. After 22 years of being glued to a machine and sitting in bad posture with legs crossed one elbow resting on my knee with my chin cupped in one hand, I needed to see a Chiropractor. They're not too expensive and worth every penny.

[semiquaver]

I've been standing for the past 5 6 years...

[Sari]

Herman Miller Aeron. Since i got one few years ago I've had no back problems. Before that I did for over 15 years! I'm either composing or mixing for 8 per day. I do take breaks where I stand and walk for a minute or two. Also weekly pilates to strengthen your core. Magic.

http://www.hermanmiller.com/content/...on-chairs.html

[heda]

I read this blog post some time ago...
Adjustable height table:
http://www.alexpfeffer.net/how-i-cha...n-and-my-life/

[Gerry]

Using a stool rather than a chair has helped with my back problems. I found that using a chair I would often end up with back pains caused by a bad posture by not sitting upright.

My stool has a bar to rest my feet or foot on when playing guitar but has no back on it so I naturally find I sit upright with my back straight. It has also has a height adjuster so you can get a perfect height for working at the desk. Might not work for everyone but certainly worth a try. Very similar to one of these:-

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ergonomic-...ndingMethod=rr

[Mudchild]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

Yay! I've spent 8-10 hours per day for the last 15 years sitting in office chairs and this is exactly how I sit. Never had any problems whatsoever, and it is extremely comfortable. As a bonus, lots of times, people don't know I'm at work because I'm so low under my cube.

Lowrider.

Some really interesting links folks, all of which I will follow up, but I am very interested in that research into sitting positions. Kindafishy is that really how you sit? It looks at first glance like it would wreck your neck - is this not the case? Also, where does your mousing and keyboarding take place? Thanks

[RobertP]

Originally Posted by LCipher

Been thinking of that - looks like a good idea. I hear that there are even 'standing' desks that are better than sitting.

Wonder how that kneeling chair would work for guitar? Seems like its close to a 'standing' position - which could be good for practice anyway.

Has this made a big difference with you?

I was working from a desk for a good few years. Although I have not needed to use health services I found I was getting aches from sitting in a tensed up way. Changing my position or walking around the office helped as did making sure I followed vdu assessment guidance. The kneeling chair just took that tension out of sitting for me, despite having to pay for my own for work.

It felt very odd at first but then I just got used to it - worked for me. They are adjustable to some extent so kneeling on one knee on the chair and one foot on the floor for the guitar worked ok but was a bit awkward but then, personally, when I play the guitar I prefer to stand anyway.

I have just this minute sat/kneeled in it and thought about what I was doing and it seems to me that it forces you to sit differently than you would in an office type chair so I guess just transfers the pressure/tensions elsewhere. Having said that, I don't have problems 'elsewhere'.

Looking at images of peoples posture using a kneeling chair they don't look like anything near the 135 degree of the research unless you tip them back somewhat. The closest is something else, the second image. Might just go to sleep though.
http://www.qualitychairsforyou.com/kneeling-chair/

[heda]

I look more like the less than 70º picture when trying to see the numbers on the screen.. I need glasses too... damn... or a bigger monitor!

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by Mudchild

Some really interesting links folks, all of which I will follow up, but I am very interested in that research into sitting positions. Kindafishy is that really how you sit? It looks at first glance like it would wreck your neck - is this not the case? Also, where does your mousing and keyboarding take place? Thanks

Yes it is, honestly. I have my keyboard and mouse on an adjustable tray in front of my desk, angled in such a way that my wrists are never in a bent or unnatural position. Never thought about my neck position I suppose, but no, I have never had any problems.

I don't sit like this for ergonomic reasons, I sit like this because I basically always want to be lounging and comfortable. It just worked out that the position a body wants to be in is a good position for the body to be in. Who woulda thunk?

[Faderjockey]

I deal with same thing.
Sitting all day either building pedals all day or mixing/tracking all day.

Been trying to do more yoga at my gf's request. She has had back problems as well. This may not be easy but seen others do it. She makes maps for a living. And she just setup her computer at work so she is standing. She got some mat for like $150 you stand on and she works standing up she said it really helped.

Now years ago I remember seeing a guy do the same thing in his control room. He had to raise his desk/monitors and everything. But he didn't have the back problem as much because he was moving around more. Maybe something to try if you can. Sort of a commitment to setup I guess and unless you can make a temp setup to try.

[LCipher]

Some interesting info here:

http://www.backdesigns.com/Kneeling-...e-W20C231.aspx

[Tomm]

also read up on spine alignment in general, some do yoga to help re-align themselves, but there are less hippy exercises too. I had annoying TMJ pain for years, and did research on this and followed some simple exercises that included just looking into a mirror with a line down the center and forcing my body to look symmetrical... haven't had any pain since.

You might also look at your sleeping situation. sleeping on your back, with a firmer mattress, may be a solution or at least part of the problem. if you are a side-sleeper, or god forbid a tummy sleeper, then you may require something else (I'm not sure) but either way, don't overlook this important aspect to back-health.

IME chiropractors can be a band-aid but never solve the underlying problem, especially if they don't talk with you on how to solve the issue for good so they just keep you as a repeat customer for life... get some 2nd opinions when it comes to doctors, and do research on your own too. your problem may be stress related (emotional) or diet-based too. there are typically many contributing factors, so keep an open mind.


good luck dude, hope you figure this out!

[XITE-1/4LIVE]

Stand up and use your DAW like a performer.
Or just get one of those Balls, personal trainers use. You can excercise on it and even change your butts position while sitting as opposed to a static chair of wood or metal.

[Faderjockey]

I always love when it's something you need.. The companies know that and jack the prices thru the roof for something simple as a desk.. There's cool stuff on that site but aint cheap..

[herringbone]

I suffered from computer related back problems for some time before I adopted the following:

1) You need to have a proper adjustable-height swivel chair on castors (something like this: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...er/6179131.htm). Don't use a dining chair or similar (and no need to kneel or stand).

Adjust your seated height so that your hip joint is about an inch above your knee joint (the lower part of your thigh should be parallel with the ground at this point). This way if you should lean forward slightly from time to time, no strain is put on your lower back.

2) You need a computer desk with a keyboard shelf (something like this: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...er/6179674.htm).

When your hands rest on your mouse and keyboard, they should be at a lower height than your elbows. This is where the keyboard shelf comes in; it is at a lower height than the top of the desk. Also it is handy to be able to tuck your knees under the keyboard shelf, which helps maintain an upright posture. This should help eliminate problems in the shoulder joints.

3) Lastly, and possibly most important, it is advisable to elevate your PC monitor in some way so that the top of it is not more than an inch or two lower than the level of your eyeballs. This may involve the purchase of some sort of monitor stand or a desktop hutch (or if you are into DIY, you can knock something up yourself). This should help eliminate any neck strain.

It is recommended that you make these adjustments while the computer is turned off, so you can focus on your posture.

Possibly also worth mentioning is the resolution of your display. If you have your display set to a particularly high resolution, you may find yourself continually leaning forward to peer at what you are doing (definitely not good for your back). If this is the case, try changing the display resolution to a lower setting.

The bottom line is that you need to adjust your computer setup to suit you, rather than the other way around (this applies regardless of the particular software you are using).

I sit at computers for hours at a time, don't do any yoga, and the only exercise I get is the occasional stretch.

Hope you find this helpful.

[Mudchild]

Herringbone yes that is very helpful, lots of good info all round guys, thanks! Going to take a while to digest it all and find the best way forward for me.

Meanwhile, anyone have any experience of 'saddle seats'??

http://www.backdesigns.com/Kneeling-...e-W20C231.aspx

[Geoff-h3o]

I really reccommend this, though i haven't used it much for back problems.
It's worked wonders for other things tho: cured my frozen shoulder in about 1/4 time of conventional (osteopathy/ physio) approaches.
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trigger-Poin...Self-Treatment)

George Michael wouldn't be where he is today (in prison?!!? ) without it.
PS
Saddle seats very good. Used by me sometimes and many osteopaths and dentists.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Mudchild

Herringbone yes that is very helpful, lots of good info all round guys, thanks! Going to take a while to digest it all and find the best way forward for me.

Meanwhile, anyone have any experience of 'saddle seats'??

http://www.backdesigns.com/Kneeling-...e-W20C231.aspx

Lol, why not just stand up? Please understand I'm just kidding around but if I want to sit down, I kind of want to actaully sit down.

[Mudchild]

Originally Posted by Geoff-h3o

I really reccommend this, though i haven't used it much for back problems.
It's worked wonders for other things tho: cured my frozen shoulder in about 1/4 time of conventional (osteopathy/ physio) approaches.
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trigger-Poin...Self-Treatment)

George Michael wouldn't be where he is today (in prison?!!? ) without it.
PS
Saddle seats very good. Used by me sometimes and many osteopaths and dentists.

Could you try that link again? seems broken here...

[DBMusic]

Unfortunately, there are no long term quick fixes here. Back problems almost always generate from weak back muscles that have accumulated over years of sitting. You need to strengthen your back while in the proper posture. Here's something that works:

http://www.gaiam.com/basic-balance-b...efault,pd.html

Take that chair and center the lower part of your back over it and lay down with your arms stretched out. Suck your stomach in like you were pushing it to your spine. Hold that position for 2 minutes or longer (the longer the better). This pushes all your vertebrae back into proper alignment while strengthening your core abdominal muscles.

Next, do as many abdominal crunches as you can from that position.

Finally, turn around, place your stomach on the ball, then stretch out and balance yourself in a Superman posture. Hold that position for as long as possible.

This all will be harder than hell at first and you're likely not to be able to any of it for very long. But keep at it!! Do this consistently every day and within a year your back problems will be gone. Guaranteed.

Good luck,

DB

[Geoff-h3o]

Sorry, this is working

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trigger-Poin...+point+therapy

[Mudchild]

Originally Posted by kindafishy

Yes it is, honestly. I have my keyboard and mouse on an adjustable tray in front of my desk, angled in such a way that my wrists are never in a bent or unnatural position. Never thought about my neck position I suppose, but no, I have never had any problems.

I don't sit like this for ergonomic reasons, I sit like this because I basically always want to be lounging and comfortable. It just worked out that the position a body wants to be in is a good position for the body to be in. Who woulda thunk?

intriguing, but I'm struggling to picture how this adjustable tray for the keyboard and mouse works?

Same also for the kneeling chair idea - how do people have their keyboards and mice when using these?

[planetnine]

This is an ironically relevant thread; I've just pulled a muscle in my back, trapped a siactic nerve and now I can't sit comfortably at my workstation or even drive anywhere.

My leg and foot are numb and some of my leg muscles won't respond. This is inconvenient and rather painful to say the least. This may have been set rolling through bad posture.


>

[gkurtenbach]

My 2 cents: Last fall my shoulder got really sore. Sitting at the computer was painful. Tried different chairs, acupucture, physio, posture retraining etc.

None of that had any significant effect.

What worked was changing to a standing desk. Within 3 days my shoulder/neck was a bit better. Now both DAW desk and work desk are standing desks. Works great for the DAW setup as making music standing up seems more energetic. Sometimes my feet get sore from standing at work. Then I take break and sit in a comfy chair and read.

I never got a fancy adjustable desk for at home, just slapped together some cheap table leg extensions so I could see if a standing desk made any difference.

[kindafishy]

Originally Posted by Mudchild

intriguing, but I'm struggling to picture how this adjustable tray for the keyboard and mouse works?

Same also for the kneeling chair idea - how do people have their keyboards and mice when using these?

If you pop open google images and type in 'adjustable keyboard tray', there are a few pictures of them. They bolt onto the underside of a desk, stick out and can be adjusted to any angle. Mine fits a keyboard and a mouse on it.

[DevonPete]

Ergonomics are a key issue as others have already mentioned.

Consider taking a course in yoga -- seriously.

The regular practise of yoga develops and maintains strength and flexibility, increases body sensitivity and balance as well as maintaining correct posture.

The practise eliminates knots of stress BEFORE they become an issue and consequently maintains health and aids concentration.

It will also save you money on specialist treatment.

Not only will your music productivity increase as a result, ALL aspects of your life will improve considerably and all it requires is regular practise which costs nothing.

I sit at the computer all day, every day and have done for decades and have no ill effects whatsoever -- all because of yoga practise.

Try it -- it will improve your life in more ways than you can possibly imagine.

[boatbassguy]

Sarah Key 'The Back Sufferers Bible'

Buy the book and do what she says.

If someone had given me that advice 20 years ago and I had followed it, I would have saved a LOT of pain, discomfort and expense.