Old 01-24-2013, 08:56 AM   #1
mabian
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Default v4.33pre2 - January 24 2013

v4.33pre2 - January 24 2013
+ OSC: fixed FX parameter feedback for some ReaPlugs
+ MIDI editor: fixed editor sometimes opening undocked when it should be docked
# MIDI editor track list: enable activating by track if the track holds only one MIDI media item
# MIDI editor track list: fixed disappearing track list
# MIDI editor track list: always show track numbers
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns

v4.33pre1 - January 22 2013
+ Video: improved QuickTime audio decoding
+ OSX: Improved cursor behavior when mouseover on nonfocused windows
+ MIDI track list: shift+click expands/collapses folders or track items
+ MIDI media item lane and track list: shift+ or alt+ click controls whether switching the active media item clears the editor first (optional)
+ MIDI editor: filter window now filters only MIDI events, not media items
+ MIDI editor: media items that are visible and selected may also be edited
+ MIDI editor: track list and media item lane control which media item is active, which others are visible
+ MIDI editor: new track list and media item lane, and theme elements
+ Multiprocessing: improved anticipative FX with sends to tracks that use PDC [t=113560]

- Mario
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:52 AM   #2
medicine tactic
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Thanks so much, devs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: enable activating by track if the track holds only one MIDI media item
This is great, but it'd be nice if it wasn't restricted to tracks with only one MIDI media item. Possible ways to choose which item to activate:
  1. The first item

  2. The item "nearest" timewise by some measure to the currently active item

  3. The item nearest the edit cursor

  4. The track's previously active item, defaulting to one of the above methods if none has been active before


My preference would probably be 4 defaulting to 1, since it seems like a nice combination of usability and predictability.

Quote:
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns
Excellent!

Last edited by medicine tactic; 01-24-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns
It doesn't have the same feel as in the TCP and MCP. Right now you really have to hit every icon in a row with the cursor. It would make more sense to use the vertical position of the cursor.
Bug: sweepe from the lowest to the highest icon and back to the lowest(don't release the leftclick): the lowest and the one above stay active.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.
Make sure the items are selected (editable).
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:23 AM   #5
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Good progress.

annoyance: There is a MIDI editor flash everytime you select a different item. The whole editor refreshes resulting in a brief flash.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
annoyance: There is a MIDI editor flash everytime you select a different item. The whole editor refreshes resulting in a brief flash.
Yeah, I've been whining about this too. It seems low priority, but I think fixing it would disproportionately improve all of our experience testing and giving feedback on the new MIDI stuff.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #7
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Please dont change this track selector in the ME too much, i am actually finding it super useful, just give us a few options to change the font and colors please
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
Make sure the items are selected (editable).
I selected the items in the track list. It doesn't work. It only works for the focused item. How exactly did you do this?
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.
Sorry, this is only working (so far) for alt+sweeping across notes. We'll fix it so alt+leftclick on a note (when that mouse modifier is set to erase notes, which is not the default) and double-clicking will work as well.

Basically there are about a million behaviors that need to be fixed up to work for multiple selected MIDI media items, we're just going to chip away one at a time.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:39 AM   #10
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Item source looping changed, but is not quite right yet. Now the item edge extends in steps way further than the drawn note if source loop is OFF.

If I then turn the source loop ON, I can still just draw pushing the item edge forward, unless I manually drag the loop bar visible from the end of the item.

Both examples in this licecap:
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:47 AM   #11
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Thanks Schwa. Sweepe works fine. Looking forward to the mouse modifier support
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
Item source looping changed, but is not quite right yet. Now the item edge extends in steps way further than the drawn note if source loop is OFF.

If I then turn the source loop ON, I can still just draw pushing the item edge forward, unless I manually drag the loop bar visible from the end of the item.
The behavior with loop disabled is a bug. The behavior with loop enabled is by design. When the media item loop is enabled, auto-extend will only work if the media item boundaries are the same as the contents (that is, if the item does not actually loop in practice). If the media item contains multiple loop iterations, you can't automatically extend the item.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The behavior with loop enabled is by design. When the media item loop is enabled, auto-extend will only work if the media item boundaries are the same as the contents (that is, if the item does not actually loop in practice). If the media item contains multiple loop iterations, you can't automatically extend the item.
Thanks Schwa, that explains the second part.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:49 AM   #14
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I see you removed "untitled" from the track list when Ctrl+drawing in empty MIDI items.


Please be consistent and remove "untitled" in general from such items. It's just unnecessary!


It's also kinda weird that when as soon as you draw in a second item in the track, the names automatically change to just numbers denoting the bar.beat of the item start. Either name all items by bar.beat start position EVERYWHERE in Reaper, or nowhere. Don't mix and match...
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #15
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Suggestion - Ctrl+click the color box to set a random color for the track (all items following this color). Shift+click on this box randomly color track and random colors for all items on that track.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #16
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Very nice additions for the Midi editor.


Regard J
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #17
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Schwa, could you please comment on these issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
There seems to be some inconsistency with the visible/editable(=selected?)/active items/tracks.

You can have an active item that is not selected. Is this by design? Why?

You can have a selected item that is invisible (thus uneditable even though it is selected). Is this by design? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I'm not quite convinced that using track/item selection as the editability control is a good solution in MIDI editor's track list.

I think a separate editability icon and column in track list, similar to visibility "eyes", would be better.

Here are some problems in current solution:
1. You can't manage multiple selections with mouse only, without mouse modifier keys. This is a bit awkward.

2. It would be difficult to add swipe support to the current selection based design. Marquee selection support could be added, but it would not be the same as proper swipe implementation (like the TCP column in Track Manager). And again, modifier keys would be probably needed.

3. Renaming tracks or items in track list (double click) will mess up the editability selections.

4. It is not very intuitive. User must know what is the "meaning" of selection in the track list. There is nothing in the GUI hinting the user that editing multiple tracks at the same time is even possible.

5. Currently it is difficult to identify the selected items in media item lane. Especially when there are multiple items with different colors the darker selected items don't stand out clearly. This issue is kind of different than the others above because this could be easily solved with better graphical emphasizing of selected items (for example red borders or something)

Another thing I'm wondering is the "active" item/track column. Do we really need a complete column for something that can be enabled in only one item/track at a time? The icon graphics kind of suggest that it means "target". If there will be a possibility to enable multiple targets at the same time, then are all those targets "active" at the same time? I think there will be always need to have one single (never multiple) "active" item/track even when multiple targets are supported.

It would be nice to hear from devs what was the thinking behind those decisions.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Suggestion - Ctrl+click the color box to set a random color for the track (all items following this color). Shift+click on this box randomly color track and random colors for all items on that track.
Would like this too since I often end up using random colouring to differentiate between items.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
+ MIDI editor: fixed editor sometimes opening undocked when it should be docked
Yesyesyesyesyes

It seems to work properly now on my work machine. Would love to test it out on my main setup but I'm too scurred to install a Pre. Eagerly look forward to the 4.33 release.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:25 PM   #20
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jnif, almost all of your questions come back to the basic decision to make media item selection equivalent to editability. This decision isn't set in stone yet, but we're going to try it for a while to see how it works.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:38 PM   #21
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I think it would be valid to connect selecting items to editability. It's a fast workflow, but it needs to excercise caution.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I think it would be valid to connect selecting items to editability. It's a fast workflow, but it needs to excercise caution.
Could you explain in more detail why you think it's fast workflow?

I tried to explain in detail how it is NOT fast. It is unintuitive and complicated in track list (compared to swipeable editability icon column).

In media item lane it might work better, but not in the track list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This decision isn't set in stone yet, but we're going to try it for a while to see how it works.
Could you explain why you decided to try it? What is so good about this solution?
Is there some reason not to try solutions used in other DAWs and proposed by users? I'm not totally serious about these questions. Obviously you don't need to explain everything you do to us users. But sometimes it could help.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 01-24-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
In media item lane it might work better, but not in the track list.
True, in the media lane it would work better, that was my thinking.


I do agree with your proposal on how track list selection should work when multiple items are found on a track. I find that very logical.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Could you explain why you decided to try it? What is so good about this solution?
The main advantages are to be able to control editability from the arrange view, persistence (media items are either selected or not, it doesn't depend on whether the item appears in a midi editor or multiple editors), minimizing state, and simplicity.

Your usability concerns seem to be focused not on the fact that media item selection and editability are equivalent, but rather on how media items are selected in the track list. Items could instead be selected via a swipable column.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:35 PM   #25
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BUG:
Track List mouse cursor offset bug

Introduced in v4.33pre1
Still present in v4.33pre2

EDIT: Everything is OK if I have 52 TCPs with 1 MIDI Media Item on each TCP.

If I have 53 or more TCPs, each with 1 MIDI Media Item, this offset bug occurs.

To repro:
1.) Click on a button in the Track List
2.) The button to the RIGHT of the mouse cursor
position registers the click

(examples:
- click the [color] box, it selects the [active item arrow thing]
- click the [active item arrow thing], it selects the [eye] button
- click the [eye] button , it selects the [record arm] button
- click the [record arm] button, it selects the [m] button
- click the [m] button , it selects the [s] button
- click the [s] button, nothing gets selected
(because there are no buttons to the right of the [s] button)
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Thanks.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
BUG:
Track List mouse cursor offset bug

Introduced in v4.33pre1
Still present in v4.33pre2
I thought this was fixed in pre2.

Is there any connection between the bug manifesting itself, and the track list vertical scrollbar appearing or not appearing?
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Is there any connection between the bug manifesting itself, and the track list vertical scrollbar appearing or not appearing?
That's it! If the scrollbar is present, it somehow messes with the hitpoints.

I checked with 20 TCPs.

If I can see all of the Tracks & Items in the Track List, with no scrollbar, everything works OK.

If I reduce the MIDI Editor height so that the Track List scrollbar appears, the bug occurs.


Increase MIDI Editor height so the scrollbar goes away, everything is OK again (all with the same Track count.)

Thanks, Schwa!
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: always show track numbers
I'd like a checkbox for this somewhere. I don't need track numbers in the track list here - names of tracks according to how I name them is perfectly enough. :S


Track list doesn't remember its width completely. Try this: new project, new track, new MIDI item, doubleclick to edit in ME, set track list width. Exit ME, delete the item, create a new one, open ME. Not the same width.

Also - new project, new track, new item, enter ME, set TL width, close ME, add new item, open that new item in ME, different TL width.


Please, I want to set ONE width globally for whole Reaper here. I kindly ask for this possibility!
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:57 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
v4.33pre2 - January 24 2013
+ MIDI editor: fixed editor sometimes opening undocked when it should be docked
Oh wow, been waiting so many years for you to fix this, any chance you actually will ?
Still exactly the same as it always was.
Slice a MIDI item, glue it, open it, bam undocked

FAIL
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #30
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Could you please just report the bug without being rude?
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
Could you please just report the bug without being rude?
Indeed. Developers are a sensitive artistic bunch gpunk_w

There's a difference between "tough love" (evil dragon) and just coming over as a spiky kinda guy.

The devs are very tolerant of these kind of attacks because they act like professionals.

They move in mysterious ways, try to respect that dude!
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:25 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Oh wow, been waiting so many years for you to fix this, any chance you actually will ?
Still exactly the same as it always was.
Slice a MIDI item, glue it, open it, bam undocked

FAIL
Can't reproduce here, tried several times.
I have 'open all track MIDI in the last focused MIDI editor, preserve existing editor contents' enabled in Prefs/MIDI Editor. Maybe it's got something to do with that ?
Or maybe it's a Mac thing ? (you're on Mac from what I remember, aren't you ?)
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