Old 07-23-2016, 10:14 AM   #1
michael diemer
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Default Can You Copy And Paste Notes Only?

I've tried posting this in the general forum, but maybe I should look for help here in the Midi forum:

I do a lot of copy/paste of midi, as I move stuff around to test whether something sounds better on the horns vs trombones, e.g, or to see if it sounds better on East West violins vs Cinematic Strings. That sort of thing. But I've run into a major problem: Whenever I do that, various settings get changed. Velocity, channel, and volume settings get messed up, so that my East West strings are suddenly way too loud, or too soft. The channels get changed, along with velocities and volume.

For someone who doesn't do a lot of this sort of thing, this may not look like much of a problem. But for someone who does it constantly, it's a huge problem. It's the way I work. If no fix is possible, I don't see how I can continue using Reaper.

Why can't I just copy and paste notes, without changing all the other stuff?
I could do this in Sonar. I know you have to customize in Reaper, and I spent hours last night looking at various actions. But I didn't see any way to just copy notes and paste them to a different track, without altering these other settings. Surely, this has to be possible somehow?
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:29 PM   #2
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You can do MIDI sends from the track to another track with the different library. Then in this new track you could insert some jsfx plugins before the vsti to filter everything but the notes. The velocities are associated with the notes but you could add another jsfx to add or substract some value to the note velocities only in this new track. Or even compress/expandthe velocities.

Don't say you won't be able to use REAPER. There is always a way. Even if you don't like this solution and really want to copy and paste notes, a script could be done. Never lose hope
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:14 PM   #3
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hyeda is describing what to most of us old MIDI hands is SOP for what you want to do. Far easier than swapping stuff around just to send it to a second track with the "other" VSTi on it. Makes for a great deal more flexibility in the lon grun.
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:55 PM   #4
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Thanks for the replies. OK, I can see how that would work. It's something I never learned, because evidently Sonar had a more direct way to do this. I'll do some experimenting. Here's hoping!
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:32 PM   #5
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how is it going?
I can give you the names of the JSFX that you need to put in the receive track now:

one is JS: MIDI Note filter
with the "Other events(cc, etc) pass through to "No". This way you can create your own MIDI CC curves for the new instrument.
and then JS: MIDI velocity control to multiply or add/subtract velocity to the notes


Yes. it is a good idea to try to forget how you did things in Sonar or other DAWS, and think, what would be the best way to do this? (in general) And then see if REAPER can do it. This way you don't start with the limitations of other DAWS in the first place.
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:04 PM   #6
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Well, I decided the best way (for me) to do it is this:

1: Select notes in Notation View.

2: Switch to Event List, use F2 to edit channel and velocity.

3: Copy to new instrument.

I think I can have a good work flow with this. For me, using sends would entail creating hundreds of them, and as for scripting, I'm not a programmer. Just learning a new DAW is plenty of work at this point.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:39 PM   #7
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Actually, there's a problem with this. By changing the channel and velocity of the instrument I'm copying from, I'm obviously altering it to conform to the one I'm pasting to. This is fine for cutting and pasting, but for true copying I'll need to figure something else out. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:26 AM   #8
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But I've run into a major problem: Whenever I do that, various settings get changed. Velocity, channel, and volume settings get messed up, so that my East West strings are suddenly way too loud, or too soft. The channels get changed, along with velocities and volume.
Could you perhaps give some more details or a GIF of the problem? When notes are copied between tracks in the MIDI editor using the standard copy/paste, the channels and velocities should remain at the original values.

I suspect that the problem does not lie in the notes' own properties, but rather in other settings that differ between the tracks.

In SONAR, the track control panels in the arrange view provide various MIDI settings, such as patch, bank, transpose, velocity+, etc, which REAPER does not (REAPER only provides the basic pan/volume/etc). The properties of the note events are overridden by these track settings. To mimic SONAR's per-track MIDI settings, you can use ReaControlMIDI as an FX, and if you prefer to see these settings in the track control panels, you can link ReaControlMIDI's parameters to visible track controls. (Once you have set up the MIDI track controls as you like it, you can save the track as a track template.)

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Old 07-24-2016, 10:13 AM   #9
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Actually, there's a problem with this. By changing the channel and velocity of the instrument I'm copying from, I'm obviously altering it to conform to the one I'm pasting to. This is fine for cutting and pasting, but for true copying I'll need to figure something else out. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
I run into this occasionally, although it appears this is more of a routine for you Michael.

In a case like this, I usually just duplicate the whole track and work at it from that angle. That way any changes I make will not affect the other tracks. Once I've checked it out and made a decision, I'll tidy things up.

Sometimes, many times actually, there are notes that you don't want to have playing, I just mute those notes in that case, they are easy to mute and unmute.

I don't think I've had any problems by copying/pasting like you seem to have. My biggest gripe is how hard it is to actually get the controllers to copy & paste when I want to do so, there's a few extra steps involved.

I don't have any problems with channels either, because I use separate midi tracks for each instrument.

I also use full song length midi items so that I've got "Track Based Midi". I never use loops, so it's not a problem for me.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:46 AM   #10
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Could you perhaps give some more details or a GIF of the problem? When notes are copied between tracks in the MIDI editor using the standard copy/paste, the channels and velocities should remain at the original values.
But I don't want them to remain at the original values on the new track, I want that track to be on its own dedicated channel, with its own pan, starting volume and velocities. At least I think that's the way it should be. I always have trumpets on channel 7, trombones on 8, and so forth. That way I can keep track of them, which makes the routing easier.

As for pan and volume, I now see that they don't get changed. Only the channels and velocities do. And that sometimes alters the sound. I can of course fix it with the F2 function, but it's tedious.

Here is exactly what I do: I work a lot in the notation view (that is why I purchased Reaper in the first place). I try a phrase on different instruments; or the same instrument, but on different VSTi's. This means moving notes around. In Sonar, I did this by "lassoing" and simply dragging and dropping. In Reaper I can't do this because there is no dragging across inst's. So, I must use copy and paste. But this causes the channels and velocities to change, which then necessitates fixing them. A velocity of 110 on an East West instrument changes the timbre of the instrument, so it must be corrected. Otherwise, my soft solo french horn suddenly becomes a raging monster. Or, more commonly, my violins suddenly are too quiet. I guess it's the velocities I worry about most. The volumes and pan settings don't seem to be affected. The channels definitely are, but I'm not sure that causes a problem, other than disrupting my nice, orderly pattern.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:51 AM   #11
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In SONAR, the track control panels in the arrange view provide various MIDI settings, such as patch, bank, transpose, velocity+, etc, which REAPER does not (REAPER only provides the basic pan/volume/etc). The properties of the note events are overridden by these track settings. To mimic SONAR's per-track MIDI settings, you can use ReaControlMIDI as an FX, and if you prefer to see these settings in the track control panels, you can link ReaControlMIDI's parameters to visible track controls. (Once you have set up the MIDI track controls as you like it, you can save the track as a track template.)
I will definitely check ReaControlMIDI out, it sounds like it could be a solution.

Thank you Julian for your help, I'm sure I'll get there eventually. I know I can't expect Reaper to be Sonar. I left sonar for good reasons, and don't intend to go back. I'm in for the long haul.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:59 AM   #12
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I run into this occasionally, although it appears this is more of a routine for you Michael.

In a case like this, I usually just duplicate the whole track and work at it from that angle. That way any changes I make will not affect the other tracks. Once I've checked it out and made a decision, I'll tidy things up.

Sometimes, many times actually, there are notes that you don't want to have playing, I just mute those notes in that case, they are easy to mute and unmute.

I don't think I've had any problems by copying/pasting like you seem to have. My biggest gripe is how hard it is to actually get the controllers to copy & paste when I want to do so, there's a few extra steps involved.

I don't have any problems with channels either, because I use separate midi tracks for each instrument.

I also use full song length midi items so that I've got "Track Based Midi". I never use loops, so it's not a problem for me.
Thanks Tod. I do use separate midi tracks for each inst, so I'm not sure why this is happening. Perhaps I should describe exactly how I set things up:

Separate track for each midi inst. However, I may have 5 different violin patches, using different VSTi's. I put the first violins always on 12. Second violins are on 13. Each inst. has a dedicated channel, all with the same pan. But starting volumes, on-going volume changes, velocities and occasionally articulation changes of course happen. I worry that a channel change could affect the pan settings, as I sometimes copy to a different inst, such as violas to cellos. This would put the cellos on a different channel, which could change the pan, although I'm not sure about this. I'm going to look into some of the ways suggested above of "hardening" those settings so they stay the same.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:58 PM   #13
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We must be careful to distinguish between note channel and track channel:

In the standard MIDI specification, each MIDI note has its own channel, and in REAPER you can combine notes from all 16 channels in a single track.

In SONAR and some other DAWs, you can also set a "track channel" for instrument tracks, which forces all notes in the track into a single channel before they are sent to the FXs and VSTi's. This hides the fact that MIDI channel is actually a note property, not a track property.

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I think I can have a good work flow with this. For me, using sends would entail creating hundreds of them, and as for scripting, I'm not a programmer. Just learning a new DAW is plenty of work at this point.
There are a few scripts in ReaPack that may help with setting up send channels for lots of tracks: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...41#post1707441.

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In Reaper I can't do this because there is no dragging across inst's. So, I must use copy and paste. But this causes the channels and velocities to change, which then necessitates fixing them.
Could you perhaps check in the piano roll (or using F2 Properties) whether the channels and velocities of the individual notes have really changed after copying? If they did change, there may be a bug, or there is some setting that I am not familiar with. To the best of my knowledge, velocity and note channel should not change after copying.

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Separate track for each midi inst. However, I may have 5 different violin patches, using different VSTi's. I put the first violins always on 12. Second violins are on 13. Each inst. has a dedicated channel, all with the same pan.
Are you using multiple channels per VSTi? If not, you can perhaps set KONTAKT or PLAY to respond to all channels, so that you don't need to bother with channel settings.
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:40 PM   #14
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Julian, I guess I'm not clear on the distinction between track and midi channels. The things we run into when we switch DAW's!

Re: my VSTi's, I do put the inst's on a separate channel. I have a standard procedure I use, with flutes always on 1, oboes on 2, trumpets on 7, basses on 16 and so forth. Sometimes I have to put an inst on a different channel if it's in the same VSTi. Like, I may have two oboe instances on the same GPO synth, and they both can't be on 2, so I put the second on another channel. Again, I do this primarily to keep track of routing. I can see at a glance that the routing is correct, because I know the horns are on 6, cellos on 15, etc.

If the channel change doesn't matter, I can live with that. but the velocities do matter. I can verify they really do occur, since I use the F2 feature to check and then correct them. I bring up the Event List, where I can see the highlighted portion which shows different channels and velocities. If it's the same inst, say violins, bit on a different VSTi, the channel will be the same, as all my violins are on 12. But the velocities will probably differ, as I set them according to whatever VSTi inst. I'm using. I may alter them here and there as needed, but I have a standard velocity that each inst is set to, which to my ear gives the best sound.
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:29 PM   #15
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please don´t write velocities if you mean vol.
the velocity level is bind to the Note number..
so if I simply copy/paste Note events the velocities do not change simply by the fact that the note nr is data byte/7 1 and velo data byte/7 2 within the same voice event --which begin with one status byte and this include the channel number as titty ähm nipple byte
volume and velocities are two pair shows
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:41 PM   #16
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please don´t write velocities if you mean vol.
the velocity level is bind to the Note number..
so if I simply copy/paste Note events the velocities do not change simply by the fact that the note nr is data byte/7 1 and velo data byte/7 2 within the same voice event --which begin with one status byte and this include the channel number as titty ähm nipple byte
volume and velocities are two pair shows
I'm pretty sure I mean velocities. I originally input them from a midi keyboard, and the notes will all have different velocities, depending on how hard I hit the keys. Volumes I put in with Controller messages. I usually use 7 for starting/overall volume, and 11 for on-going changes. Although some VSTi's may require different methods.
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:46 PM   #17
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If the channel change doesn't matter, I can live with that. but the velocities do matter. I can verify they really do occur, since I use the F2 feature to check and then correct them. I bring up the Event List, where I can see the highlighted portion which shows different channels and velocities.
Could you perhaps make screenshots or a LICEcap GIF that illustrates the velocity and channel changes before/after copy/paste? If there is a bug, we can report it, but I suspect that I am just misunderstanding your problem.

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Old 07-24-2016, 03:47 PM   #18
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Could you perhaps make screenshots or a LICEcap GIF that illustrates the velocity and channel changes before/after copy/paste? If there is a bug, we can report it, but I suspect that I am just misunderstanding something.
Sorry for my ignorance, but LICEcap GIF is not something I'm familiar with. The easiest way to explain it is that, when I copy notes from one inst. to another, the new inst will have the old inst's channel setting and velocity setting. So, in the clarinets, you may see a bunch of notes in event list, all with a channel setting of 4, and velocities of, say, 80. Then, after I copy notes from the oboes to the clarinets, the clarinets will now have the oboes' channel and velocity settings (channel 2, and, e.g. velocity of 100).

But I have decided that, at least for now, I'm just going to fix the settings after I do the copy. I use the F2 feature and can quickly make the changes. It does involve several steps that I didn't have to do in Sonar, but then DAWS always differ in how you do things, I can deal with that.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:12 PM   #19
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But I have decided that, at least for now, I'm just going to fix the settings after I do the copy. I use the F2 feature and can quickly make the changes. It does involve several steps that I didn't have to do in Sonar, but then DAWS always differ in how you do things, I can deal with that.
Hi again Michael, I'm not sure why you set fixed velocities for your various instruments, but there are a lot of things you can do to improve and speed up your process.

I'm headed out the door right now for my granddaughter's birthday (the one in my avatar), but tomorrow when I have enough time I'll put together some ideas you can bounce around.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:53 PM   #20
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So, in the clarinets, you may see a bunch of notes in event list, all with a channel setting of 4, and velocities of, say, 80. Then, after I copy notes from the oboes to the clarinets, the clarinets will now have the oboes' channel and velocity settings (channel 2, and, e.g. velocity of 100).
Fortunately, it seems as if everything is working OK.

If you are using REAPER's standard copy/paste functions, the newly pasted notes should faithfully preserve the notes' original properties (which is not the same as "track properties"): After copy/paste, the clarinet track should have a combination of notes with channel 4 and velocity 80 (the notes that were originally in the clarinet track) and notes with channel 2 and velocity 100 (the notes that were copied from the oboe track).

I am not aware of any built-in function or user script that would automatically change the channel and velocity of pasted notes to the channel and velocity of existing MIDI notes in the target track. (It would probably not be difficult to write such a script though.) The easiest way to specify a velocity for a track would be to use the JS effect "JS: MIDI velocity control", as Heda advised above. "JS: MIDI Tool v2" is also very useful.

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Old 07-24-2016, 09:05 PM   #21
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I'm headed out the door right now for my granddaughter's birthday (the one in my avatar), but tomorrow when I have enough time I'll put together some ideas you can bounce around.
Hi Michael, I just got back and I'm afraid I lied, I forgot that starting early in the morning, my computer's going to be down for a day or two. I'm putting in another SSD drive to put Windows-10 on and I have a feeling it's going to take at least most of tomorrow and maybe Tuesday too.

At any rate, I want to encourage you to dig into the Actions list to create tools that would best serve you. I have to admit that Reapers midi can be difficult, frustrating, and sometimes seems impossible. But once you get into finding and using the actions, as well as learn how to create macros to do almost anything your mind can imagine, I think you will be very happy.

Also there are a few Reaper users who are into writing scripts that can do some amazing things, and good for you juliansader, I see you're one of them.

Here is a picture of some of my midi toolbars that I couldn't live without. They're not pretty but they are totally functional to me.



I'll check back when I get back up and running.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:57 AM   #22
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"have the oboes' channel"
simply change the channel before pasting from "All Channels" to the channel you want to paste.
With All channels the pasted events have the source channel and if you first change the channel view from All to channel xx all your pasted events get this channel...

Fixed velocity levels with paste notes(no matter what the source velocity is) is also easy possible..
and pasting|change the source notes channel to xx channel| and give the pasting notes one fixed velocity
-you can easy chain these into one paste action and bind it to one button/key or what ever you like.

With REAPER you can do a lot of more things as you can do with other DAWS..
but REAPER is different and works different and to say MIDI is REAPERs stepchild-
it´s bullshit.
This people live not only in the past they also claim and preaching things from past...
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:17 AM   #23
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have a look
copy notes from xx and paste only the notes pitches to yy with a new given channel(select new channel from box first with ALL Channels you get the note(s)source channel(s)) and new VV fixed velocity levels for all notes.

I believe this is what do you want.. copy & paste only the note pitches/numbers from source

as always with REAPER easy do able.
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Old 07-25-2016, 08:47 AM   #24
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So, let me get this right:When I copy some notes from the oboe to the clarinet, I can change the channel and velocities before I paste them, and the clarinet will have the right channel and velocity, and it won't affect the oboes? That's great! The only thing different is that I work in Notation view, and use event list to do the changes, but the principle is the same.

Tod: yes, Reaper is amazingly customizable. In time I will do more of that. I actually like that. it's like Linux, where you have a lot more control in how things work, but this means you also have to learn a lot. but the independence is worth it. One reason I switched to Reaper is that they are working on making it Linux-able. By contrast, Sonar is making itself Mac-able. I've had enough of Windows, why would I want to pay twice as much for a mac, and still be limited in how I set things up? I think Linux is the future of computing, but the masses have been so conditioned by Windows that it's going to take awhile to break that near-monopoly.
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:15 AM   #25
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the editor-mode
don´t matter(p-roll|nota or list)..

You copy the source notes and can paste only the pitches from source with one new channel and a given/fixed velocity you need at your target.
One new channel for all copy/cutting notes works native
by selecting the channel from drop box at target first(before paste)...
staying at All Channels (target) do not change the copy source channels at paste target
the velocity level
not... for this i used a little script- need 2 minutes to write..

But as you can see in my little example -this work all with one tool button paste click.
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Old 03-03-2017, 05:22 AM   #26
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Whenever I do that, various settings get changed. Velocity, channel, and volume settings get messed up, so that my East West strings are suddenly way too loud, or too soft. The channels get changed, along with velocities and volume
I have my Kontakt loaded on parent track and the instruments are routed to several child (midi)tracks. I experienced the problem with channels when copying midi notes between them. I've found out that you can select all copied notes, right click on them and the multiple note properties window appears where you are able to assign the appropriate channel for all of them. However, I am not sure why your velocities got messed up; it works ok in my sessions - they're copied accordingly.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:07 AM   #27
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I experienced the problem with channels when copying midi notes between them.
Could you elaborate on what happens to the channels when you copy notes?
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Old 03-06-2017, 07:09 AM   #28
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Yes, for example: I have a Kontakt instance with piano routed to channel 1 and a horn routed to channel 2. I create my melody on midi track 1 (linked to channel 1/piano) and want it to be doubled by midi track 2 (horn). I copy notes from midi track 1, paste them to midi track 2. Now, instead of piano and horns playing together I have piano playing on both tracks. Notes pasted to midi track 2 keep their original channel assignment (piano/channel 1) and I need to change it manually so they're linked to channel 2/horns.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:21 AM   #29
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I think that much of the confusion (in the earlier posts in this thread) stems from the fact that the term "channel" can have at least three different meanings in DAWs:
* Audio: 2 channel in stereo, etc
* Mixing: Channel as synonym for track or bus.
* MIDI: Each note or CC must be assigned to one of 16 MIDI channels, which allows virtual instruments (if they are so programmed) to handle these channels separately. The virtual instrument can, for example, play a different instrument for each channel.

As per standard MIDI specifications, MIDI channel is a property of each individual note of CC, similar to pitch or velocity. MIDI channel is *not* a track property, and MIDI channel does not have any correlation to track number (unless the user deliberately makes them line up). Each track or MIDI take can include MIDI events of multiple channels.

When you perform a standard copy/paste of MIDI events between tracks, REAPER faithfully copies the events' properties. It does not know whether it should change the MIDI channel to conform to the MIDI channel(s) of existing events in the track (nor does it analyze the key signature or velocity range of existing events and change the pitches or velocities to match).

Some DAWs, such as SONAR, includes MIDI channel ("Ch") as a track control, which gives the impression that MIDI channel is a track property:




This is misleading, however: The track control simply overrides the notes' and CCs' own MIDI channel properties.

In REAPER, you can also override the notes' and CCs' MIDI channels. For example:
* When routing MIDI to another track, select "Send to channel X" in the routing window.
* Use a JSFX such MIDI Tool II before the VSTi's. You can emulate SONAR's interface by linking the JSFX sliders to track controls:




EDIT: REAPER has powerful multi-channel MIDI editing capabilities. If you use routing or JSFX to force all MIDI playback into a single channel (or if your VSTi does not care about MIDI channels), then the MIDI inside the track can freely be assigned to any channel, and channels can be employed as 16 all-purpose groups that can be independently edited, similar to FL Studio's "color groups".

Also: If you have installed ReaPack, you will find several scripts that are very useful for multi-channel MIDI editing. Just search for "script" and "channel" in the Action list's Main and MIDI Editor contexts.

Last edited by juliansader; 03-06-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 07-15-2021, 10:59 AM   #30
soundmodel
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
have a look
copy notes from xx and paste only the notes pitches to yy with a new given channel(select new channel from box first with ALL Channels you get the note(s)source channel(s)) and new VV fixed velocity levels for all notes.

I believe this is what do you want.. copy & paste only the note pitches/numbers from source

as always with REAPER easy do able.
Is the source for this script somewhere?

I'm looking to do something related.
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