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Old 11-04-2014, 03:54 PM   #1
RlaRed
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Default Considering career change to audio production

Hey all. I have been reading these forums for a while and also tried Reaper, though I don't currently use it. Still, I love reading these forums. . . lots of interesting people and knowledge being shared.

I currently work as a project manager for an engineering company and live in the Houston area. I have a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering. Over the last 4-5 years, I've realized that I have a huge interest in audio production and find myself constantly reading about it and learning about it. Because I enjoy it so much, I am considering either going part-time or even full-time into audio production down the road. Possibly even opening up my own studio. I'd be OK with taking a paycut to do something I love and would be able to do that in a few years when my wife finishes with school and begins working.


For the meantime, I was thinking it would help to get a formal education in audio production so that people will be willing to hire me and so I can get some experience with the equipment, etc. I see that there's a lot of online schools for music production, but I have no idea if they're really worthwhile or just a waste of money. Also not sure what type of investment I'd be looking at.


I was looking for some feedback from those who do audio production professionally as to what a good way to get started would be. Keep in mind I'm not in a position to quit my dayjob for now so it would have to be something I could do at night or on the weekend for the next year or two. Also, and I'm sure this will vary wildly, but what type of income range could someone starting in audio production expect?


Any suggestions or experiences would be appreciated!
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:23 AM   #2
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Come back and ask this in a few years when your wife is working, but in the meantime Audio production is for the most part a drastically shrinking filed of employment.

Since you already have some marketable skills and a job tht pays "enough" I would suggest that you pursue it as a hobby and see how it goes, but with no immediate expectations of anything other than getting some enjoyment out of a musical hobby.

That way you wont be disappointed if either your wifes earning ability falls short of your expectations (or she doesnt want to carry the household finances alone) or you fail to find a source of income within audio production.

I am one of the lucky ones, now pretty much retired at the age of 70 - there was still a decent music industry around when I started working as a musician.

Good luck and dont let the old miserable gits like me put you off.
I got the same shizzle from "grownups" when I was starting out.
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Old 11-05-2014, 04:44 AM   #3
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Great points Ivan, ever the voice of reason! I don't know if it's different on your side of the pond but here in the UK getting into the studio business is almost equivalent to planning on a career as a musician: success depends on skill, talent, knowledge, timing, networking and a large dose of luck.

I would never try to open a studio of my own again as the risk for me is simply too great, but I'm grumpy and jaded so take that with a pinch of salt

I wish you the best of luck pursuing this career, and if there's any single peice of advice I can really offer it is to start small and use the money you earn from clients to upgrade your equipment as you go along, rather than using your own savings.
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Old 11-05-2014, 04:48 AM   #4
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Education means nothing really, and contacts are everything.

If I were you, I'd buy some half-decent gear and start recording local bands. I can't stress how important networking is, you should really get to know as many local musicians as you can.

If you want to work in studios, then use the recordings you've done as your portfolio to get an internship (if you're able to take one on and support your family).

It is going to be much tougher than just taking a pay cut. Studios don't often last that long, and it's a very precarious industry. Live sound tech jobs seem easier to get and hold onto.

NB: I don't work in the recording industry, but I have a number of friends who do... and if there were realistic job opportunities, so would I! Also, this is from a UK perspective, Houston might be quite different (but reading what US engineers say on forums, I doubt it).
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Old 11-05-2014, 04:55 AM   #5
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Just seconding what ivan and judders said.

I too am an married-with-kids engineer in project management but decided at 18 to let my livelihood never interfere with my passion. I have been tempted, especially recently, but so far im sticking to it.

If you want to schedule your life in a tight manner ( and endure some sleep deprivation ) you can still get a lot done while keeping your cash cow intact.
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:06 AM   #6
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What do you mean by "audio production"? Running a studio and producing music are not really the same things.

The former requires some level of technical acumen, which you likely have a good instinct for, plus a certain level of developed critical listening skill, which takes some years to develop.

The latter requires musical talent, if your intent is to financially benefit by producing music for others, which is probably the field with longevity, songwriting and producing, because many artists and musicians just aren't good music producers, can't fully flesh out entire commercial productions or arrangements very well. Jazz artists seem to be better at that in general though, and tend to more produce themselves.

If your intent is to make a living equal to what you earn now, as an audio engineer, which my guess would be in the mid-to-high 5 figures to low six figures, highly unlikely in this environment and without some years of experience,

While no formal education is required, education is required for anything that will result in a full time living.

P.S. When you do your "potential salary calculations" factor in that independents pay for everything, including their own health care, so unless you get hired as a corporate audio staffer there is no such thing as paid vacations and similar.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-05-2014 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:13 AM   #7
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Some two or three years ago I was asking myself the same question . The I calculated the business case around that and decided I cannot earn enough to fund my living and my family.

I just does not work as a new entry on that market. The investments that are required to compete with the well-established producers and studios are far too high to create a proper return in an acceptable time.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:12 AM   #8
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Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. The general feedback seems to be that making a living in audio production is difficult. Based on that, I will take your suggestions and keep my day job and just do it as a hobby. But based on that, I will also throw the idea of paying for an online education out the window, since there are so many good resources that I can continue to learn with.

Once I have recorded some people and gotten some experience, I can always charge a nominal fee which I can put towards more gear.

As far as gear goes, I'm thinking this is the bare minimum I'll need to get started:

DAW (already have)
MIDI Controller / Keyboard (already have)
Better computer (my PC will need an upgrade)
A/D interface (something with a few XLR inputs and that can output over USB or Firewire)
A few good microphones (Maybe Shure SM57's)
Dampening materials

Am I forgetting anything?
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:17 AM   #9
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Great advice and doing it as a hobby is a great idea. That's what i do and make good money with a real job. Focus on your ears. Really listen to what you record. Start with Voxengo MSED plugin (decode mode) and do some stereo recordings. Msg me for more details.

Get a few tracks that you regard as great standards, (I use Anita Baker and Shania Twain) and mix to get the sound you are going for.

Have fun. Don't hang with people who are not fun while doing it!

check out my "Wonderful Tonight" sample. All done in Reaper.
www.sunriverstudios.com
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:25 AM   #10
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To be sure hobby does not mean toyish, it can mean professional level on a non-commercial base.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:43 AM   #11
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much good advice to you.. Like many, I'm a dedicated musician, and once kids came into the picture, and then divorce and child support payments, I had to scramble to make a stable living... for the sake of being able to see my kids and dual custody arrangment. Music is my passion and I continue to write songs, post on Facebook and sell on the internet... small time stuff, but I've been writing for 40 years and I love it to this day.

I know quite a few big time producers and just worked with one (footing the tab myself). He is struggling after a long productive career, teaching college courses on production, jingles, whatever he can do to keep busy.

Jobs are dwindling in this field...I wish you the best...but make sure you have an escape hatch.... Don't put all your eggs in this basket.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:05 AM   #12
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Take a look at Graham Cochrane's TheRecordingRevolution.com. It's a fabulous site for info on audio production in a home studio environment.

Some other things to consider when you're ready -

Teaching - There will always be aspiring musician's who want to LEARN how to record and produce their own music, A considerable part of what Graham Cochrane does, (and others, I'm sure) is meet that need.

Mixing/Mastering Service - People send you their material - You mix or master it for a fee and send it back.

There are lots of other good ways to make money out of doing something you love.

Best of luck to you.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:56 AM   #13
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The best advice i can give to the OP before he changes careers is to listen to Kenny Gioia's podcast - Mixnotes from hell.

http://produceher.podomatic.com/

This is an unvarnished look at the world of music production straight from the mouths of professionals. They get in depth about how they got into the biz, business & marketing, Rates & billing, working for FREE, the current state of the recording industry, audio education vs DIY, mistakes and pitfalls, etc.

This is INVALUABLE information for anyone looking to get into a career in audio.

Last edited by Magicbuss; 11-05-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:11 AM   #14
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...or check out Andy's some what jaundiced thoughts on this at TheByre.com

One of his favourite subjects is the moronic "gisajob, innit" emails he gets in the "finished me B-Tech/Associates Degree in music tech" season!

The series of government sponsored "how not to apply for a job" info-mercials currently running on TV in the UK are horribly true to life in my experience.

Back when I was running businesses, my teeth came in for a regular grinding.
Being very close to Cambridge, my faves were the "Well IIIIiiii..... have a B.A. from CAAAaaaaamridge, so I will do you a big favour and let you give me a job at twice the money you would pay anyone else, just so long as I dont have to work too hard"

I have hired the odd Hoorah Henry like this and one of them came to me after 2 weeks of working for me doing electronics piece work and said I was a criminal, employing slave labour because "nobody could make a living wage off what I a paying".
Funnily enough, the regular people working for me reckoned I paid better than anyone else and provided the best tools and equipment they had ever used.
But there again they were predominantly housewives in their thirties and older, who understood the concept of work hard, get paid.

And then there were the ones that wanted to tell me how to run MY business because I was doing it all wrong.... *sigh*
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:11 AM   #15
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I don't want to write a huge wall of text (but it will probably end up that way!) or restate what others have already said too much... so I will just talk about my own personal experience of running a small mixing and mastering studio professionally for the past year and a half.

The reality of my experience in a nutshell... I spent most of my first year doing free (or very, very cheap) mixes/masters and I earnt less than £1000. At some points it was so stressful (going weeks at a time with not a sniff of interest) I would suffer from stress related health problems. I've actually only started to earn well and get regular work in the last 4 months or so.

Qualifications don't seem to mean anything. I do have a First Class Honours Music Tech BA (which is briefly stated on my website) but I'm guessing that this is not why people hire me. It's the results that count and if you can build a very high standard portfolio of work that speaks for itself you will, eventually, attract clients. No clients has ever mentioned my qualification. Of course, if you want to go to school to learn that's a different thing. For the record, almost all of the skills I needed to do my job were learnt outside of University (sometimes from some lovely folks here at the forum actually).

A big decision will be whether you go into recording or just engineering as, potentially, there could be a huge difference in financial outlay. I have a friend who runs a full blown recording/mixing/mastering suite and I believe he had to take out a loan somewhere in the region of £50,000 to get the ball rolling. I operate out of a room in my house and it costs me virtually nothing to work as a mixing and mastering engineer.

Luck does play a part in attracting people to your business but once you have a client entrusting his or her music to you, you have to give A grade results at the right price point to keep them coming back. When I first started my results were not quite in that league and it showed - clients would come and go. Now I have a quite a few clients who come back regularly.

I will probably come back and write some more later but I have a mix to finish for 9pm so better go!
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RlaRed View Post
As far as gear goes, I'm thinking this is the bare minimum I'll need to get started:

DAW (already have)
MIDI Controller / Keyboard (already have)
Better computer (my PC will need an upgrade)
A/D interface (something with a few XLR inputs and that can output over USB or Firewire)
A few good microphones (Maybe Shure SM57's)
Dampening materials

Am I forgetting anything?
You can't record a band with just SM57s. They can't capture the bass frequencies of bass drums or bass guitars.

I'd suggest a pair of condensers for drum overheads, stereo mic'ing of other acoustic instruments, and to use separately for vocals, amps etc. Also get a flat-frequency dynamic mic, such as an Electro-Voice RE 20 or Shure SM7b. With those 3, you will be able to mic a drum kit in basic fashion and pretty much anything else.

Be prepared to drop a couple of grand on 3 good mics and a decent audio interface.

While you're saving up, experiment as much as you can with mic placement and read up on polar patterns. Experiment is key - reading should be your starting point for experimentation and exploration.

What about monitoring? What monitors do you have? What's your mix room like?

For recording, it would be worth checking out local spaces to rent. Rehearsal studios, church halls etc. Depending on what kind of space you want to capture.

Remember, for people to want to use your services, even for free, you will have to be able to do things they can't and have equipment they don't.

Last edited by Judders; 11-05-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:59 PM   #17
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RlaRed Here are some resources that I have found that have really helped me. FWIW I am a weekend warrior - i have a good paying day job. I work out of my house or I go to the client. Its a part time gig for me and the income stream is NOT something I count on. I do this more as a labor of love than a money maker.

Books
Mixing secrets for the small studio

Youtube channels
The recording revolution
Home studio corner
The pro audio Files (especially the videos featuring Mathhew Weiss and David Glenn)
Mixnotes
Puremix tutorials
Modern Mixing
Pensados place/into the lair

Podcasts
The recording lounge
Mixnotes from Hell
The Mixcoach

blogs
Bobby Owsinski
Dave Moulton
Production advice (ian shepherds mastering blog)


Commercial tutorials
Groove3
Puremix
Lynda.com

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Old 11-05-2014, 01:11 PM   #18
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straight up, if you go to school today for audio engineering, they will tell you up front not to expect to get a job in that field. if you still want to try, skip school and find yourself an internship. far more valuable and all it costs is time. serendipity helps too. many engineers also prefer interns with "hobbyist experience" to those with a degree. less prone to being "know-it-alls" or something along those lines...

my internship was exactly that: a day a week for about a year. good fun too.
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:24 PM   #19
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Also, I'd advise getting a laptop rather than desktop. Then you'll have a mobile studio!
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:42 PM   #20
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Finding people to pay you isn't hard. Finding people who pay well is.

I mean, if you plan on doing $50 mixes, almost giving your services away, lots more takers. But guys doing this full time and very well with really good credibility are charging a lot more than that... like $500 and up per song.

That is to say, the people you see on the net mixing an album for $400 and mastering it for $50 aren't really the guys making a living doing that, short of some kind of short term marketing thing. More likely they do that because that's the only way to get some work and experience and also because they just like doing it.

At $50 a pop you have to be doing a ton of really quick mixes to make a reasonable living doing that. I flat out refuse to do that anymore, which is why I don't have much work anymore... it's not worth the trouble.

I mean, if you hand me 32 tracks to mix i might spend 4-6-8+ hours on it across 2-3 days (with one free revision) to try to give it my best effort. Who would do that for $50-60? Only someone with another job.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-05-2014 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:55 PM   #21
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Oh and one more thing, don't listen to anybody if you really want it, do it! If someone haven't succeeded doesn't mean you won't as well. Its all fears in your head, you live only once...so its up to you.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:02 PM   #22
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Well.. he asked for "feedback from people with some experience" so... ignoring all of it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Nobody is saying "Don't do it.", we're more just saying...

"If you think you'll easily replace your current income doing that just because you really like doing it, that may not be the best financial decision, to quit your job."

"On the other hand, if you're both a good audio technician - and - a really good music producer, the chances may get a little better."

Somebody should probably tell the Full Sail audio students that before they take out all those big student loans, that maybe 3 of 200 might land a good (as in "afford a nice house and a car and stuff") job in audio somewhere.

The guys making the most money in smaller studios around here are mostly music producers. People don't come to them over and over because they have nice gear and can mix ok, decent affordable project studios are all over the place, people come to them because they produce great music, turn a demo into a "record".

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Old 11-05-2014, 02:10 PM   #23
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Well.. he asked for "feedback from people with some experience" so... ignoring all of it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Nobody is saying "Don't do it.", we're more just saying...

"If you think you'll easily replace your current income doing that just because you really like doing it, that may not be the best financial decision, to quit your job."

"On the other hand, if you're both a good audio technician - and - a really good music producer, the chances may get a little better."

Somebody should probably tell the Full Sail audio students that before they take out all those big student loans, that maybe 3 of 200 might land a good (as in "afford a nice house and a car and stuff") job in a studio somewhere.
well, imho asking this is pointless...Everybody has differetn story, different environment, different knowledge etc. My point is don't trust your life to somebody else...as i once did, but luckily realzied it while it was not late. I meant no disrespect to opinions here of course, its just the whole question is very rethorical.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
well, imho asking this is pointless.
Take it up with the OP, he asked, not me.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:32 PM   #25
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Take it up with the OP, he asked, not me.
Yes and my reply was to him
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:39 PM   #26
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Srsly...its just like asking can i be a dentist? there are success stories and there are fail stories. Who to listen? Try it and make your own story.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:58 PM   #27
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Srsly...its just like asking can i be a dentist? there are success stories and there are fail stories. Who to listen? Try it and make your own story.
Obviously if someone has a passion they are determined to pursue, nothing anyone says will stop them.

However, the earning potential and job opportunities of dentistry are markedly different from audio engineering. Reading others' experiences and opinions will help the OP make a more informed decision.

I don't see how that is a bad thing.
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Old 11-05-2014, 02:59 PM   #28
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Srsly...its just like asking can i be a dentist? there are success stories and there are fail stories. Who to listen? Try it and make your own story.
Actually for the OP its more like saying "I have a good paying job as a lawyer but I've gotten really interested in dentistry do you think I should go for it?"

Thats a more complicated circumstance than being a 23 year old working at walmart considering a career in audio production.

One has WAY more to lose and needs to do some serious risk assessment/business planning before he takes the leap. Passion only takes you so far. You have to be able to pay the bills.
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:00 PM   #29
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Well its not bad at all, my point was you can listen to advices to be prepared, but if you decided to go that way, do it
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:18 PM   #30
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feels like the forum just rescued a 'jumper'..

"come away from the ledge now, lets get you a hot drink."

which is a good deed!

as a former electro/mechanical engineering student destined for drawing components and all that, who quit to study music and pursue it, it is of course very much personal choice, but there is something to be said for having a well funded joyful hobby such as music that you can squeeze in in between the day-job.

i've had more years to get good at a whole load of things i wouldn't have had time if stayed an engineer, but nowadays the learning curve is far shorter what with the old 'net.

Edit:
little insight into 'qualifications'

all the tutors/lecturers at my former college are former students...

you may not actually 'learn' a great deal of relevant stuff yet come out thinking you're an expert which is a negative. 'on the way to being an expert sometime in the future' is more accurate!

that said the environment of being around other passionate folk and having free reign to experiment, go nuts, fail spectacularly etc is very beneficial. can't deny that.
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:21 PM   #31
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Finding people to pay you isn't hard. Finding people who pay well is.
Absolutely. And, ironically, usually... the people who pay well ie. the serious, hard working (and usually very good musicians) will give you mixes that are very well recorded and need the least amount of work to make them shine. Make of that what you will...

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I mean, if you plan on doing $50 mixes, almost giving your services away, lots more takers. But guys doing this full time and very well with really good credibility are charging a lot more than that... like $500 and up per song.
But you have to start somewhere. I started by charging £40 a mix and I was stuck at that price for the best part of my first year. I also did plenty of freebies to build up the portfolio and make contacts. Also, I tend to disagree about the 'lots more takers' thing. If you charge rock bottom you will only attract bottom feeders... I only started getting a good healthy flow of work once I had some good mixes in my portfolio AND I put my prices up - having just the portfolio didn't seem to be enough. In fact since I doubled my prices I've had no end of work since around July/August time.

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That is to say, the people you see on the net mixing an album for $400 and mastering it for $50 aren't really the guys making a living doing that, short of some kind of short term marketing thing. More likely they do that because that's the only way to get some work and experience and also because they just like doing it.
That was me last year Although I'm fortunate in that I'm currently living back at my folks who were kind enough to let me use a spare room as my studio. I don't have the same kind of financial situation as people with families, mortgages etc.
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:23 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Viente View Post
Well its not bad at all, my point was you can listen to advices to be prepared, but if you decided to go that way, do it
Agreed. Life's too short not to follow your passions
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Old 11-05-2014, 03:26 PM   #33
Judders
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
If you charge rock bottom you will only attract bottom feeders...
That's a very important point. If the OP gets to charging people, he should bare that in mind.
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