64 vs 32 bit

[dgrm44]

What are the pros and cons of the following?
Should I run 64bit reaper and bridge my 32bit plugins
or
Should I run 32bit reaper and bridge my 64bit plugins?

[Viente]

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=100216
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=107426

[dgrm44]

What is actually happening when you bridge a plugin? And is there a difference between a 32bit bridge and a 64bit bridge?

[msundh]

32-bit is yesterday and that's not true, it's last decade.

[ivansc]

Almost 100% 64bit now. Just hanging onto B4II and of course my UAD-1 stuff a I have 2 cards installed and they are still very useful.

I have to say it all seems to run a lot smoother now I have dropped most of the 32 bit plugs but I dont know whether that is because a lot of them were written a very long time ago and things have progressed, as well as going 64bit.

[Superfly76]

Echoing the other's here. I'm nearly 100% 64 bit. It's really worth it to install 64 bit reaper.

Several years ago, I would keep up to date 32 and 64 bit versions of reaper, along with 32 and 64 bit plugins. I reached a threshold where most of my plugins were now 64 bit. Now I've completely left the 32 bit versions behind.

I have maybe 5 plugins that are still 32 bit only, and I just bridge them.

[micron]

i use 32 bit with pae enabled that allows to use all my ram(16 gigabytes) and it works great and without bottlenecks.
I also have a 64 bit partition, but i find the 32 bit with pae better for overall performance.

[ProfRhino]

Easy and quick answer :
It totally depends on your collection of plugins (those you can't live without). Everything else is irrational, sorry.

Any bridging process costs CPU cycles and is a potential troublemaker, so go with the approach that requires the least amount of bridging in your personal scenario, period.
In my case that means only Kontakt, Superior, (occasionally Atmosphere and M-TronPro) are serious RAM consumers, on the other hand I have like 20 or so go-to plugins which will not be updated to 64bit anytime soon, if ever (from B4 to Variety of Sound). So obviously I'm much better off with the 32bit host paired with the four bridged 64bit VSTis.
Your scenario will be different but equally clear.

- remember, the only advantage of 64bit in this context is the removed RAM limit, every other claim is nonsense imho.
- CPU usage may vary a tiny bit depending on scenario, not enough to be significant, and can lean either way.
- if Reaper's bridge had problems with a few candidates (... just in case, I don't know it well enough), there is always jBridge which never gave me any grief, ymmv
- this is not a once-in-a-lifetime choice, you can re-evaluate your decision any day.
- you might want to clean house in your plugin folder before making a decision, here's a good chance to get rid of some clutter.

ymmv as far as the decision goes, but not on the mentioned facts ,
Rhino

[dgrm44]

Originally Posted by micron

i use 32 bit with pae enabled that allows to use all my ram(16 gigabytes) and it works great and without bottlenecks.
I also have a 64 bit partition, but i find the 32 bit with pae better for overall performance.

What is PAE Enabled mean?

[Magicbuss]

There is a performance benefit to running 64 bit. You can run more plugins or have more headroom with the same number.

My OS is 64 bit (Win7) and I run reaper x64. The majority of my plugins are 64 bit.


I always install 64 bit plugins when I have the choice.

But for certain plugins I love that are 32 bit only I use the bridge.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by Magicbuss

There is a performance benefit to running 64 bit. You can run more plugins or have more headroom with the same number.
My OS is 64 bit (Win7) and I run reaper x64. The majority of my plugins are 64 bit.

The only valid performance comparison is between host32/plugin32 and host64/plugin64, both in a 64bit OS.
DAWBench gives results that are identical within measurement accuracy, if anything 32bit having a micro-tiny advantage sometimes (much too small and inconsistent to call it reproduceable though).
Comparing both 32bit and 64bit plugins in the same 64bit host is flawed logic from the start, as the 32bit plug is bridged while the 64bit runs native. Likewise, 64bit plugins are at a disadvantage in a 32bit host.
All that said, with jBridge the CPU overhead is barely noticeable when bridging e.g. Superior or Kontakt, I have little experience with Reaper's own bridge.
just saying,
Rhino

[dgrm44]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

Comparing both 32bit and 64bit plugins in the same 64bit host is flawed logic from the start, as the 32bit plug is bridged while the 64bit runs native. Likewise, 64bit plugins are at a disadvantage in a 32bit host.

This is what I am trying to understand, what is the disadvantage when using a bridge? Do you lose sound quality? Is there latency? Does it use more memory? What does bridging do to the DAW and Plugin and why do you say its a disadvantage?

[insub]

In my experience the bridge causes negligible added cpu usage, but the main drawback is that it can cause your 32bit plugs to become unstable. If you plan on using a lot of free vst this could become a major issue. I really love the Variety of Sound plugs, but they become unstable as more bridged plugs get inserted into the project. Many freebies are 64bit now too.

If you do not run the 64bit Reaper then Reaper will be limited to only 4GB of your system ram. I don't know what the PAE is mentioned in an earlier post. I have not tried Jbridge. I think most 64bit plugs come with a 32bit version as well. And I have not needed more than 4GB of ram yet for straight audio recording and mixing, but I don't run any vsti at all. My whole pc is getting close to 4GB of ram usage later in the mix project. Not sure how much of that is Reaper. I think about 70% which puts my Reaper ram usage at about 3GB for now.

Also, and probably more importantly, I don't think 32bit hosts can take full advantage of multi core processors. CPU is my main limiting factor right now and that's on a 2.4Ghz Quad core.

[bluzkat]

Save your $15... Reaper's bridge is as good as (or better than ) Jbridge.

Not to mention that its built in and not an 'add on'!

And for the record, I went 64 bit a while back. I don't use any 32 bit plugins (my choice). 64 bit has been smooth as a baby's bottom.

Enjoy.

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by dgrm44

This is what I am trying to understand, what is the disadvantage when using a bridge? Do you lose sound quality? Is there latency? Does it use more memory? What does bridging do to the DAW and Plugin and why do you say its a disadvantage?

simply put, bridging is an extra layer of processing / translation that does not exist when using exclusively 32bit or exclusively 64bit.
There is no free lunch.
Google Translate, anyone ?
Disadvantages :
- a tiny amount of extra CPU & RAM hit, but that's negligible in most cases (unless you're running huge numbers of bridged plugs)
- the big problem is stability / compatibility - bit bridges in general are notorious troublemakers. While it is not that hard to write a bridge for a single plugin, it is not humanly possible to write a bridge that works equally well for all those thousands of plugins out there, each having their individual code idiosyncrasies and bugs.
jBridge is admirably tolerant (and configurable in special cases), Reaper's bridge appears to be decent too (but I don't have enough experience with it for a serious opinion), the others I've seen, especially Steinberg's, are a catastrophe.

So your goal is to keep bridging to a minimum, and making sure those plugins you can't avoid to bridge are playing nice with the bridge you use. Obviously this is easier the less bridging you use.
Without any doubt, a pure 64bit scenario is best - however, most people still need / want to use some legacy 32bit plugins, this is where the trouble begins and where you have to find your personal strategy of compromise.

cheers,
Rhino

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by insub

In my experience the bridge causes negligible added cpu usage, but the main drawback is that it can cause your 32bit plugs to become unstable. If you plan on using a lot of free vst this could become a major issue.

correct

Originally Posted by insub

I don't think 32bit hosts can take full advantage of multi core processors.

false

Rhino

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by bluzkat

Save your $15... Reaper's bridge is as good as (or better than ) Jbridge.

That's good to hear !
jBridge however has the advantage of working with any host, which may or may not be important to somebody.
cheers,
Rhino

[Dannii]

I'm pretty much exclusively 32 bit REAPER, 32 bit plugins and 64 bit OS (Win8) and stability is excellent.
The last time I used 64 bit REAPER was a few years ago and I had numerous stability issues. 32 bit was rock solid.

I have two DAWs at present. One is my Q9450 quad core desktop with 8GB RAM running Win7 and the other is my Sony Vaio Duo 11 ultrabook (Win8, dual core i5, 4GB RAM). I'm actually finding the Sony on par with the desktop rig for most projects, even ones with a lot of plugins and sample use (Kontakt 5 and SDII).

Things may well have changed regarding 64 bit REAPER stability over the last couple of years (no doubt they have) but given that I have had zero RAM issues and things are rock solid for me on 32 bit plugs/REAPER, I have stuck to the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" paradigm.

[urednik]

went to 64 half a year ago. Perhaps I would not do it again, but do not regret it either.

pros: I am looking into the future more confidently
cons: I had to get rid of some plugins that could not be bridged

nevertheless I did a massive cleanup and work with much less plugins now.
Haven't noticed any performance improvement either.

[EpicSounds]

Some of my thoughts on the topic. I wrote it at the beginning of 2012 and I'm now using 64-bit since the majority of my plugins are compatible now.
http://reaperblog.net/2012/02/should...64-bit-reaper/

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

Some of my thoughts on the topic. I wrote it at the beginning of 2012 and I'm now using 64-bit since the majority of my plugins are compatible now.
http://reaperblog.net/2012/02/should...64-bit-reaper/

good one, and well written too !
Rhino

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by ReaDave

I'm pretty much exclusively 32 bit REAPER, 32 bit plugins and 64 bit OS (Win8) and stability is excellent.
The last time I used 64 bit REAPER was a few years ago and I had numerous stability issues. 32 bit was rock solid.

I have two DAWs at present. One is my Q9450 quad core desktop with 8GB RAM running Win7 and the other is my Sony Vaio Duo 11 ultrabook (Win8, dual core i5, 4GB RAM). I'm actually finding the Sony on par with the desktop rig for most projects, even ones with a lot of plugins and sample use (Kontakt 5 and SDII).

Things may well have changed regarding 64 bit REAPER stability over the last couple of years (no doubt they have) but given that I have had zero RAM issues and things are rock solid for me on 32 bit plugs/REAPER, I have stuck to the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" paradigm.

perfectly reaonable.
and in case a bottleneck should appear with future projects, bridging in SDII/64 exclusively will get you lots of headroom back while still maintaining compatibility with your plugin collection.
cheers,
Rhino

[ProfRhino]

Originally Posted by urednik

went to 64 half a year ago. Perhaps I would not do it again, but do not regret it either.

pros: I am looking into the future more confidently
cons: I had to get rid of some plugins that could not be bridged

nevertheless I did a massive cleanup and work with much less plugins now.
Haven't noticed any performance improvement either.

... when I'm 64
well done - wish I could do the same.
Rhino

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by ProfRhino

perfectly reaonable.
and in case a bottleneck should appear with future projects, bridging in SDII/64 exclusively will get you lots of headroom back while still maintaining compatibility with your plugin collection.
cheers,
Rhino

All this talk of 64 bit, along with Anomaly's post regarding his ASIO problems has inspired me to re-evaluate REAPER 64 bit. I now have a second portable install alongside my 32 bit install with all configurations transferred. What I have realized though is that there are a ton of plugins I haven't installed 64 bit versions of because I figured I wouldn't be using them... Well, looks like it is time to install the 64 bit versions.

After doing some testing for Anomaly, I have discovered that even on my Sony with 4GB of RAM, there are performance improvements in high RAM usage projects that could well make the switch worthwhile if I discover REAPER 64 bit is now much more stable than it was a couple of years ago.

[Lawrence]

I only need 64-bit if I use virtual instruments, for recording live players it's irrelevant. If you plan on loading gigabytes of samples, go x64, if not, maybe not.

I always mix in 32-bit hosts.

[Dannii]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I only need 64-bit if I use virtual instruments, for recording live players it's irrelevant. If you plan on loading gigabytes of samples, go x64, if not, maybe not.

I always mix in 32-bit hosts.

I tend to do a lot of both in the same project. Most of my stuff is either prog rock or electronic with a mix of hardware and software. Even though I use SDII and Kontakt quite extensively, things have worked well.

I am wondering though whether or not some of the issues I've had with 1973 EQ forgetting its settings in larger projects is indeed a RAM limit thing with 32 bit REAPER.
I also just noticed that one project I was running which uses BlueARP would often crash upon closing but when I loaded that project in 64 bit REAPER a few minutes ago, it didn't crash on close no matter how many times I loaded it and closed it.

Hmmm... Interesting.

[novaburst]

Using 32 bit DAW you want get even 2gig of ram, the system and O S takes up over a gig of ram, you will be lucky to get 1 and a half gig of ram in using your 32 bit DAW.

Im not sure what all the fuss is using 64 bit DAW (reaper) or any other 64
DAW, even if you use very little midi and stick with audio its still worth using 64 bit. I think this is a comprehensive fact across the computer recording world, and music making world.

Head room is always better than just enough,or I think I might get away with it attitude.

If 64 bit is available then use it you will be better off, if the thought is 32 bit is more stable then im on a different planet.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by novaburst

Using 32 bit DAW you want get even 2gig of ram, the system and O S takes up over a gig of ram, you will be lucky to get 1 and a half gig of ram in using your 32 bit DAW.

Not really. I run a 64-bit OS so my 32-bit daws can use up to 4gb of ram in it. Unless I'm using VI's I never even come anywhere near that.

That's the world we line in online where every conversation revolves are virtual instruments, as if nobody isn't using them at all, and some aren't.

[Dannii]

I just posted the following in Anomaly's thread on the ASIO problems with REAPER 32 bit and high RAM use but figured it would be more suitable to post here too (I was going to create a new topic but this topic already exists).

Considering the 64 bit version of REAPER doesn't suffer this ASIO problem and seems to be better under high RAM usage, I decided to download and install 64 bit versions of the plugins I use that have 64 bit versions (nearly all of them) and give 64 bit REAPER another shot.

My first findings seemed to be very positive. I have had none of the stability issues I had with 64 bit a couple of years ago and everything seems to be working well.

However, and it is a BIG however, 64 bit REAPER uses around 20 - 25 percent MORE CPU than the 32 bit version even when running all native 64 bit plugins! I was NOT expecting that!

I've tried changing some of the preferences but to no avail. It seems that at least on my rig, 32 bit REAPER, although not as good memory wise, is FAR more efficient CPU wise.

I'll make a new topic about this Anomaly so as not to hijack your topic but I posted those findings here because they may also be of concern to you.

At the end of the day, it would be good to find out why REAPER 32 has this ASIO issue (I know, stating the obvious here given that is what this topic is all about!)

[Dannii]

On further investigation, this issue seems to be plugin specific. I just tried creating a test project with u-he Diva, BlueARP and a couple of JS plugins (32 bit project with 32 bit plugs and 64 bit project with 64 bit plugs and the same patches) and the CPU use seems to be almost identical.

The other, much larger, project where I was seeing the large discrepancies in CPU use makes extensive use of Ozone 5 Advanced. Perhaps this is an iZotope issue. I might look into trying varying 'run as' methods for Ozone and see if that helps.

[micron]

Originally Posted by dgrm44

What is PAE Enabled mean?

pae stands for Physical Address Extension, it allows to remove the ram limitation on 32 bit operating systems, it allows to assign 4GB of ram per process so that running multiple processes all installed memory can be used.