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06-17-2013, 09:00 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Your use case for VCA's
I've been working on setting up a set of actions / track templates / JS FX / FX chains that will set up a VCA Master and Slaves with just a few clicks of a toolbar. The cpu hit is minimal with just a few JS FX, and you don't ever even have to think about opening a routing window. No scripting involved, just some pretty hardcore "wow, I didn't know you could do that with an action!" trickery.
This is a LOT to organize, I just about have things ready, but I need to streamline this for real-world usage, so I'd like to know, as specifically as you can tell me, how you would use VCA's in your projects.
That question maybe a bit vague, so I suppose I'll outline a few things involved in setting this up, and potential problems that might arise so that I can make smart compromises about the setup that will work out well for most instead of just for me, and hopefully be as user-friendly as possible.
I am using Justin's VCA-Master / VCA-Slave as a base here. The benefit of using Justin's VCA JS is that it is not dependant on the behavior of some other virtual slider, thus it completely nulls if you test it's accuracy (except for a few ms delay while moving the fader, this is rather inconsequential though), it is not dependant on 7bit MIDI data, and it is not dependant on having to set the scale and range of your faders to a certain value in order to maximize it's useable range.
This involves, basically, sidechaining the control signal. To accommodate other normal sidechain setups, the VCA path will probably be best assigned to a channel other than 3/4. Channels 7/8 would work well for me. I do often split channels into 3 frequency bands via FFT splitter, but should I push this, as default, even further up into the channels? say 11/12? It would feel a bit more streamlined if it did actually work with channels 3/4, and I'm certainly comfortable with sidechaining, etc. on higher channels, but it does make it trickier to poop into older projects.
JS gmem ports. Does anyone rely on a particular range of ports in their plugins for parameter linking, etc.?
HOw many windows is too many in executing an action? For example, the actions call for SWS track template slots, Would you prefer having to do a little initial setup for each project or would you prefer to load track templates when ever you run an action to set the Master / Slave? (I am on the fence about this question myself)
Finally how many VCA Masters do you need out of the box? (i.e specific actions for VCA x, VCA y.... Manually you can have up to 99 with this, I'm not making 99 track templates however.. lol)
OK, probably too much of a wall of text there, any comments may be welcome however.
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06-17-2013, 10:22 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,568
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Oh no not another VCA thread...
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06-17-2013, 10:28 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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I doubt you'll be able to do this but I like to use VCAs in Pro Tools like this:
If I want to lower all the Guitars by 2dB, I'll make a group of all the guitars. Make a VCA and assign it to that group. Bring it down 3dB and then delete the VCA. Pro Tools asks if I want to coalesce that info on the individual tracks and I say yes.
Like I said, this will probably not help you much.
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06-17-2013, 10:50 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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firstly... let me offer praise and thanks for your efforts to bring this to the [unwashed] masses... me included.
Simple answer, I'd think 16 would as much as I ever want... and likely less. Which makes me wonder if you can do the 'ready to roll' templates in versions of 4, 8 and 16???
[since I'm pretty dumb about what it takes on your part, I hope that is not a bad question ]
I don't need what Kenny mentions he does in PT... I'm happy to just let the VCA's remain in the project.
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06-18-2013, 05:25 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Re: JS gmem ports specifically, but also pretty interesting in general: have you seen bang's paramsliders already?
As for my use cases: I do love to use virtual CV modulations for groups of parameters, but I'm not much interested in automating track volumes at all, which seems to be the exclusive focus of this approach.
__________________
˙lɐd 'ʎɐʍ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ ǝɔıʌǝp ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıploɥ ǝɹ,noʎ
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06-18-2013, 08:14 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Re: JS gmem ports specifically, but also pretty interesting in general: have you seen bang's paramsliders already?
As for my use cases: I do love to use virtual CV modulations for groups of parameters, but I'm not much interested in automating track volumes at all, which seems to be the exclusive focus of this approach.
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For these templates, using the VCA-Master / Slave plugins, yes, it's volume only. There is a way to control sends using a similar method, basically by multing the sends out to channels, and using the control voltage to trim those sends.
For plugin parameters, parameter linking via bang's paramsliders or the other parameterlink JS is relatively straight forward, and for the most part just require FX chians to be built. You could then use S&M TrackReaControl to hook into the linker via parameter modulation- this turns the track volume fader into the controller.
I actually started with that concept using TrackReaControl, it is dead simple to setup, however, for volume automation I do really want something other than MIDI based control. (14 bit MIDI data or OSC is fine, but workarounds using that are a lot more user specific. What I'm setting up is all REAPER / JS, and will just simply work on any config that has SWS extensions installed.)
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06-18-2013, 10:22 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Using regular grouping for track volumes is also relatively straight forward, of course - but ever-so-subtly different than VCA groups.
Btw, I have never used S&M TrackReaControl, as it seems to be Windows-only, unfortunately. The JS-only approach of bang's paramsliders is quite elegant in this respect, imho. In any case, I just wanted to make sure you'd seen that one, and its handling of global variables in particular.
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06-18-2013, 10:52 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds
Oh no not another VCA thread...
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I miss Dan.
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06-18-2013, 11:08 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Using regular grouping for track volumes is also relatively straight forward, of course - but ever-so-subtly different than VCA groups.
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yes, track grouping is a different animal. It can work as a VCA if Trim/read mode is used exclusively on the slaves, and Read on the master - but then you get into the issue of track grouping not following automation which open up a whole other can of workarounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Btw, I have never used S&M TrackReaControl, as it seems to be Windows-only, unfortunately. The JS-only approach of bang's paramsliders is quite elegant in this respect, imho. In any case, I just wanted to make sure you'd seen that one, and its handling of global variables in particular.
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Thanks for reminding me that TrackReaControl is windows only.
I haven't in practice got my head around how paramsliders is setup. For track Volume I was having a lot of trouble with linking something like a gain plugin at the VCA stage and having it match - exactly - the taper of REAPERs track faders.
anyway, the hard part here is setting up these actions so that they are fool proof, that's a tough process cause I know there are some fools out there.
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06-18-2013, 11:28 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
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Ha ha. yep.
Although in this case I'm glad to not have his noise level, real input is appreciated, thanks guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
I doubt you'll be able to do this but I like to use VCAs in Pro Tools like this:
If I want to lower all the Guitars by 2dB, I'll make a group of all the guitars. Make a VCA and assign it to that group. Bring it down 3dB and then delete the VCA. Pro Tools asks if I want to coalesce that info on the individual tracks and I say yes.
Like I said, this will probably not help you much.
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This might be possible, you can make one of the group tracks be the Master, you would just have to adjust the voltage gain to account for that faders initial value on insertion in order to have it sent at unity to the slaves. To do it automagically would probably require scripting.
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06-18-2013, 11:39 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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Track Groups act exactly like VCAs except that slave faders move and slave automation is NOT combined (gain summed) with VCA master automation.
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06-18-2013, 12:35 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Frankly, and bear in mind this is coming from someone who has not had a lot of experience with the various (apparently somewhat differently built) VCA's / DCA's out there in the wild...
If I were building a daw (in my dreams) I'd just allow any built-in gain stage to link/group to any other. That would solve 99.9% of it from what I can tell.
Everything that gain/trims level has a gain stage so plug-in gain aside, all of those gain stages for sends and faders anywhere in the app would be capable of independently slaving to each other.
You have a group whose child tracks have their own FX sends? Manually link all of those sends to the group fader, done. It doesn't have to be physical, the controls physically moving, it just has to control the gain/trim. And (like Kenny mentions) have some logical way to coalesce to automation maybe.
I wouldn't even call it VCA's I'd call it Universal Grouping.
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06-18-2013, 12:42 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
I wouldn't even call it VCA's I'd call it Universal Grouping.
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But the experienced users would...
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06-18-2013, 12:53 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
But the experienced users would...
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I do suppose they would indeed.
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06-18-2013, 01:36 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
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I don't. Even if he was here, he's muted. Whiny brat
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06-18-2013, 02:05 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
firstly... let me offer praise and thanks for your efforts to bring this to the [unwashed] masses... me included.
Simple answer, I'd think 16 would as much as I ever want... and likely less. Which makes me wonder if you can do the 'ready to roll' templates in versions of 4, 8 and 16???
[since I'm pretty dumb about what it takes on your part, I hope that is not a bad question ]
I don't need what Kenny mentions he does in PT... I'm happy to just let the VCA's remain in the project.
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My thoughts exactly!
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06-18-2013, 08:34 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 348
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Have been catching up my reading on the forum regarding this topic as well as your different methods James, as well as the great conversation on this topic from all who are regular participants in this discussions it seems.
Awaiting what is to come next. I haven't really been able to find much info on this particular JS plugin in use - this definitely helps.
Thanks much
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06-18-2013, 08:37 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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gaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!!!
I've hit a minor snag. Was testing how things would work with 2 different Masters. Turns out the two voltages will modulate each other in certain conditions... They don't sum at all if they are coming from the same send (gmem) point.
But they can be in series, i think, and they would be summed together within the track.
What a crazy challenging logic puzzle I have set out for myself here. Good thing I enjoy such challenges!
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06-18-2013, 11:38 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Frankly, and bear in mind this is coming from someone who has not had a lot of experience with the various (apparently somewhat differently built) VCA's / DCA's out there in the wild...
If I were building a daw (in my dreams) I'd just allow any built-in gain stage to link/group to any other. That would solve 99.9% of it from what I can tell.
Everything that gain/trims level has a gain stage so plug-in gain aside, all of those gain stages for sends and faders anywhere in the app would be capable of independently slaving to each other.
You have a group whose child tracks have their own FX sends? Manually link all of those sends to the group fader, done. It doesn't have to be physical, the controls physically moving, it just has to control the gain/trim. And (like Kenny mentions) have some logical way to coalesce to automation maybe.
I wouldn't even call it VCA's I'd call it Universal Grouping.
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Amen.... but it's in yer dreams right? btw, where IS Dan?
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06-19-2013, 04:00 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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MIA, but who knows, being a loud mouth VIP might have got him KIA in some other forum.
The limitations of hacked approaches are excellent to know James. I'd probably use up to 8 VCAs in small sessions, and probably around 32 or more in larger ones.
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06-19-2013, 06:21 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Amen.... but it's in yer dreams right?
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Pretty much. I think at some point someone will code a new DAW and take - all - of that kind of stuff into account from the start, in the foundation, instead of worrying so much about looping stuff.
Justin had the right idea with routing... he just never considered doing the same for grouping... group anything to anything. The hypothetical architecture would have every send and channel gain stage having an A/B switch to switch it away from what looks like it's dedicated control, and/or to tie switch B to A and connect switch B to something else.
That would allow VCA's, fader flipping, and some other cool stuff.
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06-20-2013, 03:47 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Success!
still need to refine a few things. I managed to code a JS: VCA slave that does not require using a sidechain.
(not bad considering I don't even understand parts of the code myself.. lol)
also... (hold onto your head) This VCA Slave plug works on ITEMS
umm.. so basically you can have a mixer fader per item.
HELLO TAKE MIXER!
With the way I have it setup, you can automate which master controls the slave, or automate which group of slaves a master controls. Not sure if I'd find a use for that, but it's there.
I'm pretty excited about now.
Last edited by James HE; 06-20-2013 at 03:58 AM.
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06-20-2013, 08:01 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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James... big cong rats to you.... works on 64 bit reaper I assume?
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