Old 05-22-2017, 12:18 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Just an unhelpful FYI that I was speaking of noiseless pickups, not active per se, it's just that the Fluence line, which is touted as very noiseless, just happens to be active due to it's technology, which are nothing like traditional wound pickups.

But at the end of the day, normal pickups are just that, pickups, they like pick stuff up if it is there.
That is a good point. Active isn't necessarily a noiseless designed pickup. So then the question becomes: How effective are noiseless pickups at rejecting noise from a computer when di'ing guitars? It has been a long time since I have used noiseless pickups and never with a computer. An audio demonstration of regular pickups vs. noiseless designed pickups for rejecting computer noise could be really helpful here.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:21 PM   #122
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That is a good point. Active isn't necessarily a noiseless designed pickup. So then the question becomes: How effective are noiseless pickups at rejecting noise from a computer when di'ing guitars? It has been a long time since I have used noiseless pickups and never with a computer.
I can try to check tonight if time permits. I have a strat I just picked up last year because my strat with vintage PUs is just too damn noisy to use for most stuff I play. The new one has the newer N3 PUs which at least on stage and rehearsal are dead quiet comparatively, pretty much solved all my noise issues there but haven't really dorked around in the studio with it where the computer is.

For everyone, my beef with a noisy guitar is that unless you play some type of chugga chugga music, and instead use the volume knob and have multiple places where you need something to fade into silence, the noise completely f*cks that up by clashing with the music as soon as the volume gets anywhere close to the noise floor. Noise gates can in no way fix that problem with such requirements as fades et al.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:27 PM   #123
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I can try to check tonight if time permits. I have a strat I just picked up last year because my strat with vintage PUs is just too damn noisy to use for most stuff I play. The new one has the newer N3 PUs which at least on stage and rehearsal are dead quiet comparatively, pretty much solved all my noise issues there but haven't really dorked around in the studio with it where the computer is.

For everyone, my beef with a noisy guitar is that unless you play some type of chugga chugga music, and instead use the volume knob and have multiple places where you need something to fade into silence, the noise completely f*cks that up by clashing with the music as soon as the volume gets anywhere close to the noise floor. Noise gates can in no way fix that problem with such requirements as fades et al.
It would also be helpful if you could explain what type of noise you are talking about. Is it hiss, hum, buzz, or nasty computer noise?

For strats, what I have experienced through amps is some low hiss (self noise) which increases as the gain is increased and some high mid/high frequency hum/buzz, both of which are typical of single coil strats. But when using a strat with a computer, that nasty computer noise is introduced, which is a different animal, and the original poster's audio files demonstrate this type of noise. This computer noise is what is under question. And so I wonder, can noiseless pickups be effective at elliminating it? I need to take my own advice and visit a guitar shop to try out something with noiseless pickups in it.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:31 PM   #124
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It would also be helpful if you could explain what type of noisy you are talking about. Is it hiss, hum, buzz, or nasty computer noise?
I mean my strat doesn't have hardly any noise at all any longer but I haven't specifically tested it in the studio near the computer. That's what I meant by "I need to check in the studio tonight". I can already say with confidence though that it will still have less even in the studio than my '82 strat with Van Zandt PUs, just not sure how 'much' when comparing normal noise to computer.

The reason is that when I got the new strat, it goes to practice and the vintage one stays at home as my daily player, hence the lack of testing at home.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:31 PM   #125
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It is true that active pickups have less self noise, for the reason that you pointed out. You could think of it as being very similar to phantom powered condenser vs. dynamic microphones. But that says nothing of electrical/magnetic/radio interference from a computer to a guitar. I don't see any logic in active pickups being able to reject electrical interference either.
Not to reject interference, but to avoid adding any other kind of noise on top of the noise caused by interferences.
Admittedly, I wasn't putting much thought into it, but on some level I assumed it could work like that.

EDIT:
@brainwreck, but to everybody: just out of curiosity, what do you think of this?



He's playing right in front of a computer with an SSS Squier Bullet. In the video, he explains that he does use a noise gate and he's actually not using VSTs but a digital modeler and an overdrive.
Anyway, it seems to be a pretty common situation and the noise he gets is manageable.
That's why I'm a little skeptical that recording near a computer is unavoidably that problematic.

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Old 05-22-2017, 12:37 PM   #126
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Not to reject interference, but to avoid adding any other kind of noise on top of the noise caused by interferences.
Admittedly, I wasn't putting much thought into it, but on some level I assumed it could work like that.
Well the preamp circuit on a guitar with active PUs will possibly have an output impedance of a handful of ohms, maybe like 100 or less where a passive guitar will have somewhere between 3k and 10k depending, that alone will allow driving a much longer cable and be less noisy in general IIRC due to being low impedance instead of high but all that is between the guitar and the amp, not really between the PUs themselves and the output of the guitar.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:40 PM   #127
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I mean my strat doesn't have hardly any noise at all any longer but I haven't specifically tested it in the studio near the computer. That's what I meant by "I need to check in the studio tonight". I can already say with confidence though that it will still have less even in the studio than my '82 strat with Van Zandt PUs, just not sure how 'much' when comparing normal noise to computer.

The reason is that when I got the new strat, it goes to practice and the vintage one stays at home as my daily player, hence the lack of testing at home.
Yea, that is what is under question: the effectiveness of noiseless pickups for computer noise.

I do know that noiseless pickups are much quieter for use with an amp. But to my ears, they do sound different as well, which is a personal preference thing. I decided long ago that I generally like the sound of regular (non-noiseless) pickups, but that was long before weighing in the noise introduced by computers and the possiblity of noiseless pickups having an effect on that.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:48 PM   #128
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Yea, that is what is under question: the effectiveness of noiseless pickups for computer noise.

I do know that noiseless pickups are much quieter for use with an amp. But to my ears, they do sound different as well, which is a personal preference thing. I decided long ago that I generally like the sound of regular (non-noiseless) pickups, but that was long before weighing in the noise introduced by computers and the possiblity of noiseless pickups having an effect on that.
I had the new one in the studio for a very short time the first day or two after I purchased it. I don't remember it being noisy but I'll know more this evening. However, I don't have issues anywhere close to Nizhny has (regardless of guitar used) and my classic PU guitars are terrible in the rehearsal space, aka worse than the studio due to dimmers etc. in the room. Will report back assuming I don't flake and get distracted by the time I get home.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:08 PM   #129
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I guess the Camel Crusher will be making it quite a bit worse too.

What happens if you unplug the guitar but keep the cable in?

Can you point the guitar in any direction that improves things? I rotate to find a spot out of magnetic fields when I plug into a computer.

To the tech guys: would a active DI box help? Could it be the laptop?
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:21 PM   #130
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What happens if you unplug the guitar but keep the cable in?
What would be the reasoning, with a floating signal wire like that, it's gonna pick up hum either way. If we short it, then that's also a bad test because the short grounds the noise (which is what occurs with the volume knob down on the guitar when plugged in). There could be some value holding it by the insulated section in mid air I suppose using it as a poor mans EMF meter which is what I'm guessing you mean? Just curious.

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I guess the Camel Crusher will be making it quite a bit worse too.
This hints at what I mentioned before about like testing between a few of us. I can pick up static EMF from a clothes dryer in China if I turn the gain up far enough or.... use compressors or other stuff in the chain which by nature raises the noise floor meaning there are conditions we could raise the noise floor without having crazy amounts of distortion due to gained SIMS. AKA giving the impression that it isn't that much gain but we had raised the noise floor in other places.
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:20 PM   #131
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What would be the reasoning, with a floating signal wire like that, it's gonna pick up hum either way. If we short it, then that's also a bad test because the short grounds the noise (which is what occurs with the volume knob down on the guitar when plugged in). There could be some value holding it by the insulated section in mid air I suppose using it as a poor mans EMF meter which is what I'm guessing you mean? Just curious.
Probably just me misremembering how to isolate a ground loop problem!

The poor-man's EMF meter sounds cool, but you're crediting me with more technical knowledge than I actually posses
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:15 PM   #132
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Will report back assuming I don't flake and get distracted by the time I get home.
OK there should be fades for each one so you can hear the noise, file names match each scenario. I should note a few things...

1. I noticed that I've stepped away from the computer to record out of habit - must be subconscious training of always keeping the guitar away from equipment when recording. I had already recorded a few of these before I noticed so I just stayed there for consistency, it's only about 4 feet away from the computer instead of two.

2. However, on the N3 strat and the Les Paul SIM tests, I walked over during the fade to directly in front of the computer where I normally sit.

3. From time to time I may spin on my feet a few inches left and right to expose any nulls in EMF if they exist (they do).

4. The first half is less boosted, 2nd half of each is with an additional gain boost on top. Near silly amount of gain for chords at least, but it's a noise test so wanted to make it on the more challenging side of things.

5. I missed one of the gain settings on the LP sample, too late to go back and probably doesn't matter.

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/VintageStratAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/VintageStratSIM.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/N3StratAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/N3StratSIM.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/LesPaulAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/LesPaulSIM.mp3

The N3 strat and LP are quiet as can be expected SNR wise, even in front of the computer, but that's here in this dwelling.
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:57 AM   #133
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OK there should be fades for each one so you can hear the noise, file names match each scenario. I should note a few things...

1. I noticed that I've stepped away from the computer to record out of habit - must be subconscious training of always keeping the guitar away from equipment when recording. I had already recorded a few of these before I noticed so I just stayed there for consistency, it's only about 4 feet away from the computer instead of two.

2. However, on the N3 strat and the Les Paul SIM tests, I walked over during the fade to directly in front of the computer where I normally sit.

3. From time to time I may spin on my feet a few inches left and right to expose any nulls in EMF if they exist (they do).

4. The first half is less boosted, 2nd half of each is with an additional gain boost on top. Near silly amount of gain for chords at least, but it's a noise test so wanted to make it on the more challenging side of things.

5. I missed one of the gain settings on the LP sample, too late to go back and probably doesn't matter.

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/VintageStratAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/VintageStratSIM.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/N3StratAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/N3StratSIM.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/LesPaulAmp.mp3

http://sendmeyourshit.com/noisetest/LesPaulSIM.mp3

The N3 strat and LP are quiet as can be expected SNR wise, even in front of the computer, but that's here in this dwelling.
I use more gain than that, otherwise those pinch harmonics won't squeal. It's more of a "chugga chugga" hi gain than an AC/DC crunch. But I don't hear anything wrong even with the vintage strat, anyway.
So that further confirms that you can indeed record near a computer without introducing incredible buzz.
I'm not using an American strat into an RME interface, I use cheap stuff, but I'm not sure that alone can explain such stark difference in results.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:07 AM   #134
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I use more gain than that, otherwise those pinch harmonics won't squeal.
Hmm, that's really high gain I have, I cold pinch harmonic like crazy with that - I could demo it, but no time right now. Just as an FYI. Not sure why it doesn't sound like such high gain, it should be as high or higher gain than your sample from before during the 2nd half of each sample (though I haven't checked to be sure). However, it's still enough gain to expose any real noise issues so I agree with stark since the N3 PUs and Humbuckers seem pretty silent even a couple feet from the computer. Had I moved the vintage strat that close, it would be more like your samples FWIW.

Edit: To solve some of ^that, is why I suggested we take some free SIM (maybe Boogex) with the exact same settings/patch and compare between several of us so that we have true apples/apples SIM wise.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:25 AM   #135
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I should mention something else. If I were as close to the amp as the computer, they may have different types of noise but here, I can't say either is more noisy volume wise 'per se'. The computer may be a little more noisy depending on how you slice things up but not 'that' much.

Even standing farily equidistant from the amp/computer, the vintage strat was noisy enough to be annoying even with the amp only. I noticed this last night, and also previous experience because my rehearsal space has zero modern devices within >100 feet and my vintage strat there is almost unusable due to noise.

I have to wonder if some, by where/how they would normally set up when using a computer (vs amp), have more problems with computer noise because they don't sit 12"-24" (or less) from their amp. At least that difference didn't seem strark unless I purposely got way too close to the computer, aka closer than I would normally ever get to an amp.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:28 AM   #136
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Hmm, that's really high gain I have, I cold pinch harmonic like crazy with that. Just as an FYI. Not sure why it doesn't sound like such high gain, it should be as high or higher gain than your sample from before (though I haven't checked). However, it's still enough gain to expose any real noise issues so I agree with stark since the N3 PUs and Humbuckers seem pretty silent even a couple feet from the computer. Had I moved the vintage strat that close, it would be more like your samples FWIW.
More like, but not quite like the insane buzz I get.

Besides, I'd like to stress that it's the same even if I get some meters away from the computer. It doesn't seem to even decrease. That's another reason to doubt that it's caused by external interferences.

By the way, thanks to everybody for your help so far. It's a very peculiar situation I have, but maybe this info might be useful to somebody else, too.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:41 AM   #137
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More like, but not quite like the insane buzz I get.
When I moved the vintage strat 12-18" away, it was as or near as insane as yours but that example isn't in the samples above. It did mostly go away when I got 3-5 feet away though. With the N3/Humbuckers that close, pretty dang silent.
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:49 AM   #138
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When I moved the vintage strat 12-18" away, it was as or near as insane as yours but that example isn't in the samples above. It did mostly go away when I got 3-5 feet away though. With the N3/Humbuckers that close, pretty dang silent.
I understand.
As a matter of fact, I was using humbuckers for the last samples I've shared, although it was a very crappy guitar I was using.
I'll do some more testing to see if I can find a spot were the noise gets better, but the last time I did I saw no improvement.
Not that it would be much of a solution, because anyway I have to stay at arm's length to hit the record/stop buttons .
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Old 05-23-2017, 05:51 AM   #139
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I understand.
As a matter of fact, I was using humbuckers for the last samples I've shared, although it was a very crappy guitar I was using.
I'll do some more testing to see if I can find a spot were the noise gets better, but the last time I did I saw no improvement.
Not that it would be much of a solution, because anyway I have to stay at arm's length to hit the record/stop buttons .
It's not that I'm offering a solution as your situation seems different in some strange way. Just wanted to be thorough in my explanations of things I noticed while testing. All three of those are electronically well-maintained quality guitars but can't say how much if any difference that is making.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:51 AM   #140
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Have you tried a different cable?
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:56 AM   #141
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Here's an interesting story that could give you some ideas if it's similar to your situation:

Chasing Down Noise Problems
Chad Weaver
November 23, 2009

In a perfect world, running all of your gear off of a unit that's supplying good, clean, consistent power and having everything on a common ground would eliminate noise issues. Unfortunately, from venue to venue and room to room there will still be a time you'll have grief from something not being 'properly earthed.' I'm thankful that for the last couple of years, my main use for those little gray ground lift adaptors has been to make up for the lack of rubber feet under one of my amps. Although, on things like TV appearances where I typically just have a few stompboxes instead of my rack, I still may have to lift an amp or two so that they'll play well with others—no big deal.

As I mentioned last column, we most recently had Brad’s rack rebuilt by David Friedman of Racksystems. Now for quite a while after having the rack rebuilt, we were noise free. Even when we quite a bit of gain dialed in on the amps, they wouldn't be any noisier than if they were sitting idle with no input.

Then one day, out of nowhere, the noise came. There seemed to be no getting rid of it no matter what I tried. The cleaner sounds had ground buzzes, and the distortion patches were all but unusable. Even the wah pedal would vary from not very good to terrible. As I'm sure you all have experienced, ground problems are some of the worst to track down. They seem to come from anywhere, and it feels like the slightest little thing will cause them. I'm not the type of person who just accepts things and moves along—I have to fix it. I just about drove myself crazy looking for an answer to why my brand new rig was noisier than the old one. I was searching at every show from the time my gear was set up until soundcheck with no luck. Nothing worked, nothing helped and I successfully shocked myself three times.

There had been no change in the rack whatsoever, so I could rule that out. I tried ground lifting each amp and the rack one at a time with no luck. To make sure I wasn't overlooking something, I talked through every step of my entire routine with our monitor engineer Mark Gould. I remember telling him that I had even tried lifting the wireless and it either made no difference at all or it was worse. I had just about settled into the idea that there was a cable going bad, and to make it all the worse, that it was somewhere inside of the rack.

Now that I’ve brought up the wireless, I have to address two things. First, the Shure UR4D wireless has a ground lift for each channel on the backside of the receiver—and flipping this switch didn't help either. Second, I have another UR4D receiver for my acoustic guitars mounted in my workbox. Both electric and acoustic wirelesses share a pair of paddle antennas by way of Shure's antenna combiner. This was the only connection that these two wirelesses have, and even breaking that caused no improvement.

By a sheer stroke of genius, Mark took the two acoustic wireless output cables and disconnected them from the sub snake. Just like that, my rig was dead quiet! Two cables that have absolutely no direct contact with my guitar rig had caused me more grief than I've ever endured in my ten years of touring.

Now this is where it gets interesting. There was nothing wrong with these mic cables at all. The problem was elsewhere. Have you ever, in an effort to keep noise levels down, grounded your fourth pin on an XLR connector? You jump your ground wire over to the fourth lug, which is generally left open and sometimes it can quiet down a noisy mic line. These had been wired this way from the factory, I'm certain for the same reason, but none of us had ever dreamed two centimeters of wire would cause such a massive ground loop through my amps. Just like a vasectomy, one quick snip made all the difference in the world. Thank you again Mark for all your help!

So remember, next time you have some noise issues and you've exhausted every avenue you can think of... it may not be your rig.
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Old 06-04-2017, 11:31 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by jmgweb01 View Post
Have you tried a different cable?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgweb01 View Post
Here's an interesting story that could give you some ideas if it's similar to your situation:

Chasing Down Noise Problems
Chad Weaver
November 23, 2009

In a perfect world, running all of your gear off of a unit that's supplying good, clean, consistent power and having everything on a common ground would eliminate noise issues. Unfortunately, from venue to venue and room to room there will still be a time you'll have grief from something not being 'properly earthed.' I'm thankful that for the last couple of years, my main use for those little gray ground lift adaptors has been to make up for the lack of rubber feet under one of my amps. Although, on things like TV appearances where I typically just have a few stompboxes instead of my rack, I still may have to lift an amp or two so that they'll play well with others—no big deal.

As I mentioned last column, we most recently had Brad’s rack rebuilt by David Friedman of Racksystems. Now for quite a while after having the rack rebuilt, we were noise free. Even when we quite a bit of gain dialed in on the amps, they wouldn't be any noisier than if they were sitting idle with no input.

Then one day, out of nowhere, the noise came. There seemed to be no getting rid of it no matter what I tried. The cleaner sounds had ground buzzes, and the distortion patches were all but unusable. Even the wah pedal would vary from not very good to terrible. As I'm sure you all have experienced, ground problems are some of the worst to track down. They seem to come from anywhere, and it feels like the slightest little thing will cause them. I'm not the type of person who just accepts things and moves along—I have to fix it. I just about drove myself crazy looking for an answer to why my brand new rig was noisier than the old one. I was searching at every show from the time my gear was set up until soundcheck with no luck. Nothing worked, nothing helped and I successfully shocked myself three times.

There had been no change in the rack whatsoever, so I could rule that out. I tried ground lifting each amp and the rack one at a time with no luck. To make sure I wasn't overlooking something, I talked through every step of my entire routine with our monitor engineer Mark Gould. I remember telling him that I had even tried lifting the wireless and it either made no difference at all or it was worse. I had just about settled into the idea that there was a cable going bad, and to make it all the worse, that it was somewhere inside of the rack.

Now that I’ve brought up the wireless, I have to address two things. First, the Shure UR4D wireless has a ground lift for each channel on the backside of the receiver—and flipping this switch didn't help either. Second, I have another UR4D receiver for my acoustic guitars mounted in my workbox. Both electric and acoustic wirelesses share a pair of paddle antennas by way of Shure's antenna combiner. This was the only connection that these two wirelesses have, and even breaking that caused no improvement.

By a sheer stroke of genius, Mark took the two acoustic wireless output cables and disconnected them from the sub snake. Just like that, my rig was dead quiet! Two cables that have absolutely no direct contact with my guitar rig had caused me more grief than I've ever endured in my ten years of touring.

Now this is where it gets interesting. There was nothing wrong with these mic cables at all. The problem was elsewhere. Have you ever, in an effort to keep noise levels down, grounded your fourth pin on an XLR connector? You jump your ground wire over to the fourth lug, which is generally left open and sometimes it can quiet down a noisy mic line. These had been wired this way from the factory, I'm certain for the same reason, but none of us had ever dreamed two centimeters of wire would cause such a massive ground loop through my amps. Just like a vasectomy, one quick snip made all the difference in the world. Thank you again Mark for all your help!

So remember, next time you have some noise issues and you've exhausted every avenue you can think of... it may not be your rig.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind!
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:34 PM   #143
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As an aside
I have a bass a Fender Jazz this is active.
I found it intermittently started putting a high frequency zzzzzzzz
into my wave files.
I tracked the answer down by accident I wore a woolen jersey one morning instead of a plastic type weave.
The problem disappeared.
Ever heard of that?
I reckon the plastic type garment known for creating static was interfering
with whatever.

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https://soundcloud.com/steve-maitland-1
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:04 AM   #144
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Nizhny Tagil, I'm in the process of moving back to a desktop as a daw, as opposed to a laptop. No more crazy noise with ampsims so far. No trying to find the right angle to sit, or any such crap. Just an update.
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:02 PM   #145
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Edit: To solve some of ^that, is why I suggested we take some free SIM (maybe Boogex) with the exact same settings/patch and compare between several of us so that we have true apples/apples SIM wise.
If you shared the dry DI files, anybody could use any sim - or chain of plugs - they want.
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:11 PM   #146
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Nizhny Tagil, I'm in the process of moving back to a desktop as a daw, as opposed to a laptop. No more crazy noise with ampsims so far. No trying to find the right angle to sit, or any such crap. Just an update.
Aw, I was going to suggest recording three or four minutes of the buzz by itself, then flipping the phase on it and adding to the noisy guitar tracks to cancel out the buzz in them.

Hehe, not really, but it might actually work. <g>

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Old 07-10-2017, 02:24 PM   #147
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Hehe, not really, but it might actually work. <g>
Only if the "noise" is actually a steady tone and you can get them lined up just right.

Most often, these things are too close to random for that to actually work.
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:36 PM   #148
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Nizhny Tagil, I'm in the process of moving back to a desktop as a daw, as opposed to a laptop. No more crazy noise with ampsims so far. No trying to find the right angle to sit, or any such crap. Just an update.
Thanks.

I have some updates as well.

Turns out I wasn't very thourough in all my testing before.
Some days ago I took the time to see if anything changed by using different sockets around the house.
Using a laptop, I've plugged in the guitar with controls all the way up and the bridge pu selected and loaded an ampsim with high gain. Then, while monitoring through headphones, I've proceeded plugging the laptop into a different socket each time. It turned out that the one I was using originally with my normal setup and my desktop computer introduced a lot of fizzy/buzzing noise. I have no idea why, but I could reproduce it.
With a different socket, I could get rid of that, but there was still a lot of hiss and of course the 50hz hum caused by single coils.

I've now upgraded the very same guitar with a bridge humbucker and shielding for cavities and out wire. This was done by a hardcore professional luthier, so little possibility of more problems introduced by a sloppy job.
I still have to try it, though. I'll let you know if that makes a difference.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:10 PM   #149
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I've now upgraded the very same guitar with a bridge humbucker and shielding for cavities and out wire. This was done by a hardcore professional luthier, so little possibility of more problems introduced by a sloppy job.
I still have to try it, though. I'll let you know if that makes a difference.
Yea, definitely let us know how it goes.

So far (knock on wood) I haven't had any problems with either single coil or humbucker pickups with the desktop machine, where with the laptop nasty noise is a given.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:24 AM   #150
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Ok, this is the situation now:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-G...ew?usp=sharing

The sample starts with the volume all the way down, then I hit a note and I raise it up to full as the note rings, then I play a few palm muted notes.

The only plugin on the chain is British Valve Custom by Studio Devil with the gain on 8/9, so pretty high.

Basically, what's new is the buzz I had before is now a "shhhhh" that doesn't go away with the volume on the guitar all the way down.

Since the last time I've updated the thread the guitar has been completely shielded, a humbucker has been installed (and I use it in the sample) and I'm using a different socket because I found out the one I plugged in before added a nasty buzz by itself (more details in my previous post).

I think there's been an improvement, but I'm still not able to use a cranked ampsim boosted with a tubescreamer in front, like many metal guitarists normally do, without introducing horrible loud noise.

Thanks again to anybody so far, I hope this is useful to somebody else if they are unlucky enough to have this many problems recording guitars in a improvised home studio.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:32 AM   #151
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What are your settings for the Tube Screamer?

They are usually used to add level but without much drive if you're using it as a boost, and not normally with the amp gain dimed either.
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Old 07-11-2017, 11:40 AM   #152
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I think there's been an improvement, but I'm still not able to use a cranked ampsim boosted with a tubescreamer in front, like many metal guitarists normally do, without introducing horrible loud noise.
That's a hell of a lot of gain as described (didn't hear the sample) and you can pretty much always expect noise with that much gain even with an amp (even with the guitar turned down depending on where the gained noise is). Like Judders mentioned, if someone really is using a TS in front of a dimed amp, there probably isn't much gain on one of them, they are just pushing the input a little harder.

Also, I hate giving this advice as it makes assumptions and I already respect your attention to detail but most heavy records have less gain than they sound like they do to the end listener. I can attest to this by hearing such things then having the opportunity to have that rig in my hands and wondering why it isn't as gained as I originally thought - can expand on that psychoacoustic effect later if anyone wants to know more.

REG: TS in general. It was originally designed or rather used to make a tube amp scream (aka was never that good for a solid state amp to sound tubey as it was exploiting what tube amps do), take a marshal that didn't have pregain, crank it and it has power tube distortion but nothing like we see today with dedicated preamp gain circuits, the TS cut lows and can boost the signal to overdrive the input of the amp some. The TS distortion provided by diodes mixes with the amp distortion so we have three distortion components:

1. The TS itself but not that much.
2. Overloading the input of the amp but not that much.
3. The tubes/amp itself but not that much

Result = heaven albeit midrangy but most used it for creamy leads anyway. The point there is when thinking TS and AMP in a historical fashion the distortion is thre but *coming from multiple places* and less per place. Just plugging a TS into an dimed amp that already has pre and post distortion can be a real mess. Not that no one ever did it but is helpful to understand the original details. Also... The TS circuit, even when completely dimed still allows a certain amount of clean through - which is one reason it doesn't do so well with solid state amps, it also curtails high frequency content based on where the gain knob is set, the higher, the more it rolls off highs, both of which are part of it's original design IIRC (and why it sounds midrangey).
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:03 PM   #153
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^^^ Listen to this guy, he's knows what he's talking about!

The Tube Screamer, as I understand it, used it, and seen others use it, is much more about adding screaming sustain than it is about adding distortion. A TS is not an MT-2!

Also totally agree that less is more when it comes to distortion on guitar. Tons of gain makes guitars sound smaller, especially when mixing them in a recording. There is no way, other than aggressive gating which comes with its own problems, to decouple noise from dimed gain knobs.

Do you have any references for the kind of tone you're going for? Try searching youtube for isolated guitar and you might be surprised how little gain extremely heavy guitar sounds have.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:05 PM   #154
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Yes, I was referring to a Tubescreamer (well, actually, a plugin emulation) set to act like a booster (zero gain, max volume).

Personally, I tend to keep the gain as low as possible to avoid problems but I suspect that some metal guitarists do actually use that much gain.
I've once seen an interview with Suffocation where the guitar player was talking about cranking the gain all the way up on his amp and, if that wasn't enough, occasionally using a Maxon overdrive to boost it. And I doubt he used a Marshall Plexi .
I've also seen a gazillion tutorials with the typical metal guy showing how he obtained an extremely brutal tone completely in the box with a ridiculous amount of gain and zero noisy nastiness.

I don't even play brutal death metal; the problem with me is that I like pinch harmonics and unfortunately they need a lot of gain to sound right.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:07 PM   #155
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^^^ Listen to this guy, he's knows what he's talking about!

The Tube Screamer, as I understand it, used it, and seen others use it, is much more about adding screaming sustain than it is about adding distortion. A TS is not an MT-2!
Aschat knows that circuit at a low level better than I do tbh. FWIW though my avatar is my take on that circuit, I stopped/slowed production because I just don't have the time to build them. It is though a vintage TS at heart.

Enough rambling, back to the noise problem!
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:17 PM   #156
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Yes, I was referring to a Tubescreamer (well, actually, a plugin emulation) set to act like a booster (zero gain, max volume).

Personally, I tend to keep the gain as low as possible to avoid problems but I suspect that some metal guitarists do actually use that much gain.
I've once seen an interview with Suffocation where the guitar player was talking about cranking the gain all the way up on his amp and, if that wasn't enough, occasionally using a Maxon overdrive to boost it. And I doubt he used a Marshall Plexi .
I've also seen a gazillion tutorials with the typical metal guy showing how he obtained an extremely brutal tone completely in the box with a ridiculous amount of gain and zero noisy nastiness.

I don't even play brutal death metal; the problem with me is that I like pinch harmonics and unfortunately they need a lot of gain to sound right.
Yeah, there are plenty of guitarists who do use a lot of gain, but there are an equal number of engineers who sneak in a cleaner signal from the DI tracks without telling the band

Just listened to some Suffocation, and they didn't sound like they had an extreme amount of gain.

As for pinch harmonics, gain will help them squeal, but you shouldn't need tons of gain if your technique is good. Also don't forget that engineers will ride the fader to accentuate them on records.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:32 PM   #157
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Yeah, there are plenty of guitarists who do use a lot of gain, but there are an equal number of engineers who sneak in a cleaner signal from the DI tracks without telling the band

Just listened to some Suffocation, and they didn't sound like they had an extreme amount of gain.

As for pinch harmonics, gain will help them squeal, but you shouldn't need tons of gain if your technique is good. Also don't forget that engineers will ride the fader to accentuate them on records.
I'm not advocating the use of lots of gain to sound good, I know it's usually the opposite. What baffles me is how they can get away with that much gain without horrible electrical noise.
In my humble setup, setting the gain from 7 upwards with a booster in front just can't be done without problems and usually that's quite the amount of gain that makes pinch harmonics sound just right.

EDIT: I'm trying to go back and find that interview with Suffocation. In the past I was more of a fan of them than now, but I was surprised and I think it's interesting because that's a top player in the metal world and they are an institution.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:32 PM   #158
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I've once seen an interview with Suffocation where the guitar player was talking about cranking the gain all the way up on his amp and, if that wasn't enough, occasionally using a Maxon overdrive to boost it. And I doubt he used a Marshall Plexi .

I've also seen a gazillion tutorials with the typical metal guy showing how he obtained an extremely brutal tone completely in the box with a ridiculous amount of gain and zero noisy nastiness.
This isn't possible without heavy gating, muting or fader riding (or similar) because it would violate the laws of physics - so either it isn't as brutal in your hands as you hear when just listening or the former applies - still happy to explain exactly why brutal doesn't sound as brutal in your hands as it does when hearing it. I'd personally ignore the typical metal tutorial guy, unless he's the one who played guitar on your fave CD and even then, grain of salt. I'm not saying they aren't doing good things, I just don't think it's helping the problem at hand and more likely making it worse expectation wise.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:46 PM   #159
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I'm not advocating the use of lots of gain to sound good, I know it's usually the opposite. What baffles me is how they can get away with that much gain without horrible electrical noise.
In my humble setup, setting the gain from 7 upwards with a booster in front just can't be done without problems and usually that's quite the amount of gain that makes pinch harmonics sound just right.

EDIT: I'm trying to go back and find that interview with Suffocation. In the past I was more of a fan of them than now, but I was surprised and I think it's interesting because that's a top player in the metal world and they are an institution.
Studios and big venues will have expensive power conditioning systems that help with noise too, as well as expensive gating systems.

Hope I'm not coming across as preaching or condescending, but there's not really a way to have extreme gain without noise.

Glad to hear that you've got somewhere with your situation regarding sockets and such though
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:49 PM   #160
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Studios and big venues will have expensive power conditioning systems that help with noise too, as well as expensive gating systems.
That's a good point, places where they can basically avoid the noise ever being created or getting in to begin with; forgot all about that. If Amazon only had Prime delivery on booth-sized Faraday cages. Hmm, business op alert.
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