Old 04-22-2017, 03:35 AM   #41
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it's the burning process i'm interested to see how u burn that cleanly..
Click "Burn" on your CD-burning software.
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:37 AM   #42
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I'm not suggesting your 'wrong' in anyway-just curious of debate.
I like debate and I want to help, but I'm not going to a chemtrails site and try to convince them not to fear chemtrails. I don't have enough time for that. If believing it aliases makes you feel good, then believe it.
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:49 AM   #43
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I see a tone
So why are you asking me to show you what you already see?
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:54 AM   #44
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Why not perform a DA > AD loopback test and see if you can produce and capture tones above 20 kHz ? (@44.1 kHz)
if you can't, I'd recommend getting a new interface...
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:12 AM   #45
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So why are you asking me to show you what you already see?
You claim to be able to burn that 21khz to cd-i'm not claiming anything so ain't burning anything..lol.
Others 'claim' that not to be the case=confusions.
"Audio from a CD that is higher than 20 KHz only can be an error."

"Originally Posted by TryingToMakeMusic
I could synthesize a non-erroneous 21 KHz tone and burn it to CD."

"And you would get aliasing, unless it gets resampled with a good resampler to 44.1k before burning, which would then bandlimit that to get rid of the aliasing."

Claim your $200,000- it still has 0 to do with op. lolz.
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:20 AM   #46
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"Audio from a CD that is higher than 20 KHz only can be an error."
What he said there is.... Ask him for proof.

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"And you would get aliasing, unless it gets resampled with a good resampler to 44.1k before burning, which would then bandlimit that to get rid of the aliasing."
He added that after I replied to his original post, so I hadn't addressed it. It's not getting resampled by any resampler to 44.1k before burning, because it's rendered to 44.1k in the first place in the DAW. Why's he resampling from 44.1k to 44.1k while burning CD's? Good question, but you'd have to ask him for the answer.
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:25 AM   #47
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Good question, but you'd have to ask him for the answer.
Nooooo - I am in fear mode of learning truths =)
You ask,he may bite..
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:46 AM   #48
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I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF. I think with 20-20k digital there is information missing, that's why digital music sound dry(IMO). I can play music recorded from LP on reel to reel and the HF is smoother and richer and my machine only goes to about 23k. When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
I'm not a huge fan of digital audio, that's the reason I've gone back to using as much analog gear as I can. For me recording to DAW is a compromise, it's more practical and far cheaper but I'd rather go all analog if it wasn't so crazy expensive nowadays for small home studio.
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Old 04-22-2017, 06:13 AM   #49
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I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies.
There is much truth here^ > perception is also `limited` to bandwidth.
We only decode a tiny tiny portion of all that is as humans.
Electromagnetic spectrum is far reaching.

In a digital world,everything arrives and goes out as variably organised packets of information.
Analog,by it's very nature is chaotic,until rea-ordered and contained in some form of media device,ie,speakers.
There's less distortions of tone and sample rates don't apply once converted back to currents,signal then becomes rather chaotic again,due to electromagnetic resistances and tolerances via cablings.
Seems op worked it out regardless.
Npz,nothing to see here >move along please. =)
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Old 04-22-2017, 06:28 AM   #50
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I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF.
20 kHz is the "average"' ,so yes, some can hear higher.
But ultrasound can not be felt like infrasound, because our skin has great dampening qualities for high frequencies.
Direct contact with bone is another story, though.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:56 AM   #51
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And you believe that 21,000 is well above Nyquist (22,050)? I'll leave you to that.
No not "well", but (regarding the physical synthesis filter) just very slightly .

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Old 04-22-2017, 08:56 AM   #52
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I don't fully agree that humans only hear to 20k. Maybe ears don't register higher but I believe that body also absorb frequencies. We can feel deep bass that we can't hear, I'd say same goes for HF. I think with 20-20k digital there is information missing, that's why digital music sound dry(IMO). I can play music recorded from LP on reel to reel and the HF is smoother and richer and my machine only goes to about 23k. When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
I'm not a huge fan of digital audio, that's the reason I've gone back to using as much analog gear as I can. For me recording to DAW is a compromise, it's more practical and far cheaper but I'd rather go all analog if it wasn't so crazy expensive nowadays for small home studio.
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There is much truth here^ > perception is also `limited` to bandwidth.
We only decode a tiny tiny portion of all that is as humans.
Electromagnetic spectrum is far reaching.

In a digital world,everything arrives and goes out as variably organised packets of information.
Analog,by it's very nature is chaotic,until rea-ordered and contained in some form of media device,ie,speakers.
There's less distortions of tone and sample rates don't apply once converted back to currents,signal then becomes rather chaotic again,due to electromagnetic resistances and tolerances via cablings.
Seems op worked it out regardless.
Npz,nothing to see here >move along please. =)
What a nonsense.

Both of you please go back to learn about "What is digital audio?" from the very start.

Both postings are uneducated assumptions at best and pseudo-esoteric BS at worst. Summary: there is no foundation of knowledge whatsoever and its only more addition to the noise of alternative facts. Stop doing this. This kind of meaningless blahblahing only scares people and has no purpose at all. The keyword here is "I believe..." - means: "I dont know." So if you dont know... please be quiet. Please.

A famous man who considers himself as being wiser than all of us once said - not that long ago: "Nobody knew that digital audio is such a tremendous complicated thing!"

Its science, math. And if you feel or believe anything you know it doesnt belong here and you are in deep trouble.

And no, analog is not chaotic. Analog is the same math and math is objective. If you feel otherwise, your feelings are wrong. Simple as that. There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:49 AM   #53
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What a nonsense.

Both of you please go back to learn about "What is digital audio?" from the very start.

There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
Lol-sigh. Ok-i'm prepared to start over with you conducting lessons.How about it?
For a great master such as yourself haervo,this should be fairly easy/painless right?
I feel your blinded by your own delusions of what "reality" actually is.
Please explain yourself,while trying not to criticize others? >? I didn't think so..
Move on,or make nerdo mathmatic motions here.. you will find your "maths" also limited in many ways of explaining "audio"
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:02 AM   #54
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And no, analog is not chaotic. Analog is the same math and math is objective. If you feel otherwise, your feelings are wrong. Simple as that. There is no reality beyond math. And Nyquist/Shannon/Kotelnikov are no magicians.
Analogue systems are indeed chaotic. The maths says so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system

This applies to the instruments being played as well as the analogue electronic systems used to capture and record their sound.

The real world runs on stochastic, nonlinear and chaotic systems.
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:21 PM   #55
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For all you people who believe high frequencies are inaudible:

20 kHz LowPass Enabled:



20 kHz LowPass Disabled:

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Old 04-22-2017, 11:11 PM   #56
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(Only) Resampling the stream to a much higher sample-rate before analyzing the spectrum makes the result (useful frequencies and aliasing) visible in a reliable way.

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Old 04-22-2017, 11:19 PM   #57
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(Only) Resampling the stream to a much higher sample-rate before analyzing the spectrum makes the result (useful frequencies and aliasing) visible in a reliable way.
Why do you believe that?
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Old 04-22-2017, 11:39 PM   #58
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For all you people who believe high frequencies are inaudible:
Do you know what 'inaudible' means?
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Old Yesterday, 12:06 AM   #59
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Do you know what 'inaudible' means?
Yes, but do you? And do you understand that the frequencies coming out of a DAW and into your ears aren't necessarily the same as the frequencies going into the DAW? Do you understand that a DAW has buttons besides Record and Play, and that those additional buttons can modify the sound in between Record and Play?

Do you understand that "It doesn't matter whether xxx kHz comes into the DAW, because you can't hear xxx kHz" is a silly argument, because what comes into the DAW isn't the same thing as what comes into your ears?
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Old Yesterday, 12:38 AM   #60
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Yes, but do you? And do you understand that the frequencies coming out of a DAW and into your ears aren't necessarily the same as the frequencies going into the DAW? Do you understand that a DAW has buttons besides Record and Play, and that those additional buttons can modify the sound in between Record and Play?

Do you understand that "It doesn't matter whether xxx kHz comes into the DAW, because you can't hear xxx kHz" is a silly argument, because what comes into the DAW isn't the same thing as what comes into your ears?
Really??? I did not know that!!!
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Old Yesterday, 12:41 AM   #61
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Really??? I did not know that!!!
That's what I'm saying about your question.
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Old Yesterday, 03:04 AM   #62
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Why do you believe that?
Measurement equipment needs to be an order of magnitude better than the stuff that needs to be checked.

As any digital analysis using the sample rate the data stream to be checked is running in, obviously will be unable to determine the effects (such as band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing) introduced by the sampling process (e.g. A/D conversion, digital signal creation) itself.

Using the appropriate tools, you will see (and in case of aliasing hear) that (depending e.g. on the A/D process/filter) that with frequencies very near to Nyquist at least one of band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing will be introduced.

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Old Yesterday, 04:25 AM   #63
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Using the appropriate tools, you will see (and in case of aliasing hear) that (depending e.g. on the A/D process/filter) that with frequencies very near to Nyquist at least one of band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing will be introduced.
What you're saying is true of every single filter ever, whether very near to Nyquist or not; so I don't see your point? I don't need meters to see that, because it's shown by pure math. What the pure math doesn't show, however, and what you haven't shown, is that there's anything special about the value 20 kHz. That value entered this thread only because it was selected by Voxengo as the default value of a parameter easily changed in Span. It's not nearly as profound as you make it out to be.

Which specific "appropriate tools" are you're suggesting I've overlooked? What are there names exactly?

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Measurement equipment needs to be an order of magnitude better than the stuff that needs to be checked.
False, you don't actually need to resample anything in order to find the frequency-spectrum of a periodic signal. You're making a lot of assertions, but you're substantiating none of them. I learned DSP from Shannon's boss at Bell Labs, I've programmed for legends in the field of DSP, so I can't readily swallow unsubstantiated claims that seem bizarre to me from random people on the internet. I'll ask you yet again, will you please substantiate your claims with math? Why would I value your unsubstantiated claims that contradict the math I've been studying for decades? You made an amateurish mistake claiming that a sine-wave below Nyquist needs some "anti-aliasing" measure before being sampled---you are certainly capable of making errors---so why won't you substantiate your claims with math? Either you know the math to prove your claims and you can post it here, or you're quacking about things you don't really know.

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As any digital analysis using the sample rate the data stream to be checked is running in, obviously will be unable to determine the effects (such as band limiting, phase distortion and aliasing) introduced by the sampling process (e.g. A/D conversion, digital signal creation) itself.
That's not obvious at all. It's quackery.
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Old Yesterday, 04:26 AM   #64
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Wow, MJUC Jnr. has some impressive fold-back aliasing!
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Old Yesterday, 04:33 AM   #65
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Wow, MJUC Jnr. has some impressive fold-back aliasing!
Jr. doesn't over-sample (my recollection from when it was released, not necessarily correct).

But that harmonic run from 400 Hz to to 5,000 Hz is by no means aliasing.
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 AM   #66
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Jr. doesn't over-sample (my recollection from when it was released, not necessarily correct).
I think that's true, because it lacks the high/low quality switch that MJUC has, which I resume controls oversampling.
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Old Yesterday, 04:35 AM   #67
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But that harmonic run from 400 Hz to to 5000 Hz is by no means aliasing.
Interesting!

What else might it be?
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Old Yesterday, 04:46 AM   #68
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Interesting!

What else might it be?
It is Intermodulation Distortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation). It occurs in analog (where there's no aliasing) just like digital. You'll get the same results using an all-analog path. (On the other hand, the energy over 5,000 kHz in my screenshots: maybe aliasing, I don't know for sure.)

I'm not sure intermodulation distortion is such a bad thing, and that's why I'm even in this thread. Intermodulation distortion is exactly what gives you energy one octave below the fundamental when you play a 5th on an amplified guitar (power chord). When you chop out high frequencies (too high to hear directly), and then distort, it changes the sound of low frequencies that you can hear.
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Old Yesterday, 05:05 AM   #69
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It is Intermodulation Distortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation). It occurs in analog (where there's no aliasing) just like digital. You'll get the same results using an all-analog path. (On the other hand, the energy over 5,000 kHz in my screenshots: maybe aliasing, I don't know for sure.)

I'm not sure intermodulation distortion is such a bad thing, and that's why I'm even in this thread. Intermodulation distortion is exactly what gives you energy one octave below the fundamental when you play a 5th on an amplified guitar (power chord). When you chop out high frequencies (too high to hear directly), and then distort, it changes the sound of low frequencies that you can hear.
I see.

I was under the impression that plugins designed to emulate analogue signal processing are the only times you'll get IMD in DSP. Is that right?
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Old Yesterday, 05:20 AM   #70
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I see.

I was under the impression that plugins designed to emulate analogue signal processing are the only times you'll get IMD in DSP. Is that right?
You'll generally get IMD from any non-linearity, e.g., compressor, saturator, amp-sim, regardless of whether it's designed to emulate analog.

In my graphics, the 400 Hz tone resulted from 31,000 and 31,400 Hz energy (not shown in my graphic) I fed to the Klanghelm (except when the 20 kHz low-pass intervened before Klanghelm).

This is a common occurrence with analog gear and with digital at higher sample-rates; unfortunately, during the sample-rate debates, the low sample-rate proponents misapplied the Nyquist Theorem to wrongly conclude that going higher than 48 kHz sample-rate makes no difference.
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Old Yesterday, 05:22 AM   #71
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You'll generally get IMD from any non-linearity, e.g., compressor, saturator, amp-sim, regardless of whether it's designed to emulate analog.

In my graphics, the 400 Hz tone resulted from 31,000 and 31,400 Hz energy (not shown in my graphic) I fed to the Klanghelm (except when the 20 kHz low-pass intervened before Klanghelm).

This is a common occurrence with analog gear and with digital at higher sample-rates; unfortunately, during the sample-rate debates, the low sample-rate proponents misapplied the Nyquist Theorem to wrongly conclude that going higher than 48 kHz sample-rate makes no difference.
Thanks.

And I take your point; many people seem to confuse themselves over the effect of sample rate on delivery formats, versus the effect of sample rate on digital processing.
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Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM   #72
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That's what I'm saying about your question.
Hiya.
Yeah... apologies, I was being sarcastic... I do understand what you were saying.
The statement about high frequencies being "inaudible" - it depends on how high and who/what is listening. Your images, as you know, demonstrate the adverse EFFECTS of certain deficiencies in the recording process.
They don't prove that inaudible high frequencies are audible.

It's just symantics, but accurate delivery is as important as accurate facts.
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Old Yesterday, 05:57 AM   #73
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It's just symantics, but accurate delivery is as important as accurate facts.
The thread started about what frequencies go into the DAW. Then some respondents twisted that topic into a discussion of what frequencies go into the ears. They were conflating, so I met them on their own terms.
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Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM   #74
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*Walks away,hands in pocket,shuffling feet,whistling a 20khz song...*
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Old Yesterday, 01:27 PM   #75
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Sounds above 20khz are inedible.


hth
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Old Yesterday, 07:35 PM   #76
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When I listen to vinyl, the HF is even better, specially when I compare same CD and Vinyl.
Bear in mind that vinyls usually get mastered differently than CDs. It might be that difference you're hearing.
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