Old 09-16-2013, 08:49 PM   #1
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for the few that know us, this is not quite and Music2Murder song. i'm kinda amazed it came together at all based on the style. but it seemed we had a groupie of sorts who requested all of our songs to put in her pod rotation. feeling quite honored, i went to her site to hear her sing...

she had complimented my voice before, but i was really struck by hers. it only seemed right to do some sort of duet with our biggest fan. wouldn't have been complete if Kevin wasn't there too, besides, i needed him to help with the last mix balances and such. so here you have Sam Jan and Kevin...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...nal%209-16.mp3

After TNS Mastering:

https://app.box.com/s/ld84ndfwqr34t04iadwb

Whole lot more solid now.

please, any mix crits highly requested.

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Old 09-17-2013, 01:38 AM   #2
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Everybody kick back, put on your fezes and smoking jackets for it is smooth as fuck. Girl has a great voice too.

Mix critique? I dunno, I think it's good I don't mix such things - I'd squash it, it sounds very uncompressed and un-glued to me. But I have no idea about making of gentle stuff anything and it's possible that fiddling with dynamics of lounge music is officially a mortal sin.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:14 AM   #3
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I think zeekat's "it is smooth as fuck" comment pretty much sums it up

Now, the mix, where has all the bottom end gone ?, i mean, i can hear it but its way down low and the the rest of the track is very bright, maybe a little too much so and that ride cymbal needs to chill out somewhere back in the mix a little.
The bass & kick are almost not there on my speakers ( Yamaha HS80M's ) and this song really needs them there so it can groove like its just begging too !!

Sorry guys, i don't mean to sound like i'm bagging on your mix but i'm just honestly saying what i'm hearing here.
Its just that i really like this tune and want you guys & Gal to get the most you can from it.

Cheers
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:33 AM   #4
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Nice track.

Voxes mix well and compliment one another.

I agree with the Wolf, kick needs to come forward a touch and the bass needs taming a bit --- a bit boomy.

Other than these minor nits --- a lovely piece.

Good work from all involved.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:12 AM   #5
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Everybody kick back, put on your fezes and smoking jackets for it is smooth as fuck. Girl has a great voice too.

Mix critique? I dunno, I think it's good I don't mix such things - I'd squash it..
ha! thanks man.

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I think zeekat's "it is smooth as fuck" comment pretty much sums it up

Now, the mix, where has all the bottom end gone ?, i mean, i can hear it but its way down low and the the rest of the track is very bright, maybe a little too much so and that ride cymbal needs to chill out somewhere back in the mix a little.
The bass & kick are almost not there on my speakers ( Yamaha HS80M's ) and this song really needs them there so it can groove like its just begging too !!
speakers, or more accurately, my room is the problem, i have too much bass response and not much i can do about it. so i try to purposely undercompensate by 'guessing' the best transferrable low end. which, of course, leads to overcompensating hi's. just not working. any suggestions?


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Nice track.

Voxes mix well and compliment one another.

I agree with the Wolf, kick needs to come forward a touch and the bass needs taming a bit --- a bit boomy.

Other than these minor nits --- a lovely piece.

Good work from all involved.
well, Wolfe was saying the bass was too low, so by 'taming' are you saying eq'd differently?
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:55 AM   #6
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Thanks all for the feedback so far. I was honoured to be asked in on this collab for many reasons. I love the song and I think it turned out great. I also had the pleasure of listening the the vocals a cappella.

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Sorry guys, i don't mean to sound like i'm bagging on your mix but i'm just honestly saying what i'm hearing here.
Its just that i really like this tune and want you guys & Gal to get the most you can from it.
Not coming across as bagging, Wolff. Your words are sincere, and most welcome. We want the same thing. I am also soaking up comments on the low end here.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:46 AM   #7
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Cool. Both in the sense of mood and sense of praise. Inspiring in both concept and the accomplished way it is pulled off. I love the way the composition is relatively simple but with small tangents and odd twists that keep us attentive, looking around the various corners of the mental space you all set up here.

Being cool, one meaning of which is "nothing being aggressive" I must note that the elements coming together in this beautifully ensemble piece are mostly all clear and yet blended, but with a couple of exceptions.

The lead guitar stands out more than anything else. It is great, but maybe not so often or so intrusively?

The organ is barely there and its contribution is unclear-weak. The vibes, on the other hand, do a better job of showing up. They both provide leafy harmony to this latticed garden song.

The bassline is (for me) well-designed and appropriate, but the thought came into my head that it is rather punctuated/staccato.

Listened three times so far and I will get back to it again tomorrow. Thanks.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:01 AM   #8
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Cool. Both in the sense of mood and sense of praise. Inspiring in both concept and the accomplished way it is pulled off. I love the way the composition is relatively simple but with small tangents and odd twists that keep us attentive, looking around the various corners of the mental space you all set up here.

Being cool, one meaning of which is "nothing being aggressive" I must note that the elements coming together in this beautifully ensemble piece are mostly all clear and yet blended, but with a couple of exceptions.

The lead guitar stands out more than anything else. It is great, but maybe not so often or so intrusively?

The organ is barely there and its contribution is unclear-weak. The vibes, on the other hand, do a better job of showing up. They both provide leafy harmony to this latticed garden song.

The bassline is (for me) well-designed and appropriate, but the thought came into my head that it is rather punctuated/staccato.

Listened three times so far and I will get back to it again tomorrow. Thanks.
this was closer to my intentions: the mood. thank you for noticing Msore. i did keep the pads a bit low to not sound too lushy, but i suppose if i included them, they should at least be heard. thanks for that. i became too focused on those light/dark vocal blends.
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:43 AM   #9
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that clean rhy guitar in the beginning is stunningly perfect Kev!

Sam, your voice is top notch as always... you really have a perfect thing going on there with your voice and recording chain. don't change it!!! i like the young lady's voice, but something wasn't jiving for me between you and her.

a couple things that struck me while listening. i might lower the ride a little during that passage around 2:00. maybe add some nice room verb - (or bring up room mics) to dilute it a tad... it's a little harsh/distracting as is.

there sounds like there's some kind of 'clicky' noise coming from the bass? pick? speaking of which, i might bring that up a little. i'm really hearing an old Paul McCartney sounding "thumpy" bass on this one. perhaps
due to the way it's being played. i know i always harp on this, but it'd be nice to have some more low-end from the kick too. i think this tune demands a well established low-end.

nice job guys (and gal)!
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:59 AM   #10
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that clean rhy guitar in the beginning is stunningly perfect Kev!

Sam, your voice is top notch as always... you really have a perfect thing going on there with your voice and recording chain. don't change it!!! i like the young lady's voice, but something wasn't jiving for me between you and her.

a couple things that struck me while listening. i might lower the ride a little during that passage around 2:00. maybe add some nice room verb - (or bring up room mics) to dilute it a tad... it's a little harsh/distracting as is.

there sounds like there's some kind of 'clicky' noise coming from the bass? pick? speaking of which, i might bring that up a little. i'm really hearing an old Paul McCartney sounding "thumpy" bass on this one. perhaps
due to the way it's being played. i know i always harp on this, but it'd be nice to have some more low-end from the kick too. i think this tune demands a well established low-end.

nice job guys (and gal)!
now see, this is what i get for not breaking the kit up. i mixed it as one complete piece thinking it wouldn't be that important in this particular song. but you can't get away with that in any song. so much for laziness. lows have already been raised. i'll replace the old link later today.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:17 PM   #11
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that clean rhy guitar in the beginning is stunningly perfect Kev!
That's Sammy!
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:06 PM   #12
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great male and female vocals, love her soft airy voice. good mix!

But I agree with the above comment, some transparent compression could help glue it all together. and some warm mid EQ to add weight. This track dose sound kind of bright to me and the mp3 format dose not help. also I do hear some pops and clicks, and at the end the cymbals are cut off.

Im down to contribute, I personally would like to see this done. very pleasant track.
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:11 PM   #13
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that would be very cool. would you like a Reaper project?
if so, with all effects rendered so that you'd just add your changes or remaster, or completely raw, or certain trks rendered and/or certain trks raw?
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:30 PM   #14
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Very nice. I hope its OK that I heard a nice Steely Dan type mood there. My favorite is the nice use of unexpected chords. It's just enough to make the ear think something may have just went wrong only to be rewarded that it didn't, it was just right.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:13 AM   #15
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that would be very cool. would you like a Reaper project?
if so, with all effects rendered so that you'd just add your changes or remaster, or completely raw, or certain trks rendered and/or certain trks raw?
nice, So I do like the mix here. and I normally do not "mix", even though some times I do.. 95% of the time I master the printed high resolution stereo wave file from the mixing project. keeping in tack all of the hard work the mixing engineer did while adding final touches to the song. then I step down convert to cd quality or mp3. It really is amazing how much can be done with just the two buss with some know how and great tools.

but its up to you. I do think the cymbals at the end should be looked into, sounds like they were cut off short. the pops could possibly be from some tracks that abruptly end, adding fades could possibly remedy this.


let me know.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:05 AM   #16
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Very smooth, indeed. Nothing to be a critic about here. Sammy- you and the lady should team up more often. Really good stuff!!
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:49 AM   #17
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Very nice. I hope its OK that I heard a nice Steely Dan type mood there. My favorite is the nice use of unexpected chords. It's just enough to make the ear think something may have just went wrong only to be rewarded that it didn't, it was just right.
i have been known for some 'unusual' harmonies. sometimes the expected hi or low harm just sounds too normal or predictable. thx dude.

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nice, So I do like the mix here. and I normally do not "mix", even though some times I do.. 95% of the time I master the printed high resolution stereo wave file from the mixing project. keeping in tack all of the hard work the mixing engineer did while adding final touches to the song. then I step down convert to cd quality or mp3. It really is amazing how much can be done with just the two buss with some know how and great tools.

but its up to you. I do think the cymbals at the end should be looked into, sounds like they were cut off short. the pops could possibly be from some tracks that abruptly end, adding fades could possibly remedy this. let me know.
extremely cool. i'll make the suggested corrections and send you the rendered project. thanks so much for the interest. and double thanks for letting me know there's at least some skill there.

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Very smooth, indeed. Nothing to be a critic about here. Sammy- you and the lady should team up more often. Really good stuff!!
we already are. except she wants to do a rocker next time...that should be interesting.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:48 AM   #18
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Right on,

Send me a Pm when your ready.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:20 PM   #19
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That clicking sound [esp near the start] I took to be fx of a camera shutter! But that's the only criticism from my pov, though im listening laptop pc.

Love the song, arrangement and performance. Imo forget what was said about the excellent ld gtr parts [sorry msore] when I read that I was kinda expecting gtrs treading all over the vocal or something but I say its top notch lead guitar work and complements the song beautifully.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:58 PM   #20
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Right on,

Send me a Pm when your ready.
Sent.

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That clicking sound [esp near the start] I took to be fx of a camera shutter! But that's the only criticism from my pov, though im listening laptop pc.

Love the song, arrangement and performance. Imo forget what was said about the excellent ld gtr parts [sorry msore] when I read that I was kinda expecting gtrs treading all over the vocal or something but I say its top notch lead guitar work and complements the song beautifully.
yeah, that's the ticket...i meant for it to sound like that...yeah...
i just didn't say anything before to see who'd figure it out...yeah...

appreciated dude.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:09 AM   #21
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haha, didn't catch that, now I get it. the way the clicking sits in the mix sounds like it was coming from the daw. very subtle.
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:57 AM   #22
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That clicking sound [esp near the start] I took to be fx of a camera shutter! But that's the only criticism from my pov, though im listening laptop pc.

Love the song, arrangement and performance. Imo forget what was said about the excellent ld gtr parts [sorry msore] when I read that I was kinda expecting gtrs treading all over the vocal or something but I say its top notch lead guitar work and complements the song beautifully.
Thanks so much, morgon!

<- this is the big dumb grin you just put on my face.

I can appreciate your sentiments equally, msore. You would gasp if you heard all the bits that Sammy left on the cutting room floor though!!!

Sammy, you did a great job piecing this stuff together, and you made all the right moves.
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:28 AM   #23
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All performances are top notch on this song. But what really shines is the way that each part supports the other in timing, tone, and melody. Every part feels like it ought to be there, and the song would be less effective without it. Getting things to fit together to build a feeling or vibe like this is very difficult, and you have done it well indeed. Kudos.

T

PS: Forgot to comment on the excellent melody. The melody of this song is of a quality that few songwriters are able to equal. It is appealing and interesting without being pretentious.

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Old 09-20-2013, 09:29 PM   #24
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@Kevin
thanks man. just wanted everybody to have as equal a part as possible.

@tspring
awesome comment man. you know, i think my best melodies are the ones i just pop off (like this song). play a few chords and sing the first thing that comes out--refine later. the more i slow down and think about it, the less interesting it becomes. bring out the muse and put the critic to sleep, i say.
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:27 PM   #25
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@Kevin
thanks man. just wanted everybody to have as equal a part as possible.

@tspring
awesome comment man. you know, i think my best melodies are the ones i just pop off (like this song). play a few chords and sing the first thing that comes out--refine later. the more i slow down and think about it, the less interesting it becomes. bring out the muse and put the critic to sleep, i say.
Yep, your comments strongly reinforce what ive come to believe, ie when you go for it bc that's where the feeling took ya, often that's the material can be worked to top quality product, this song is a fine case.
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:50 PM   #26
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I also believe in that principle. First reactions are very important, if not crucial. Some of my best drumming work has been the product of working from the heart and instant instinct reactions.

But when I master songs its a combination of audiophile instinct and analytical ears.


This track has great musicianship. And the panning decisions in the mix remind me of jazz records. Witch I think is interesting and works for this track.
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:35 AM   #27
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Saturday morning here in East London. Got a coffee steaming next to me.
Put this track on, listened, and now I'm set up for the day with a smile on my face.
Lovely vox and great song/arrangement.
I agree about solidifying the bottom end a bit and I might just bring the lead guitar back a bit, so's it sits in the track a little more.
Sounds like MTM + to me.

(So sorry not been in touch for such a long time Kev - all well but just been tied up with work and family.)
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:20 AM   #28
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Yep, your comments strongly reinforce what ive come to believe, ie when you go for it bc that's where the feeling took ya, often that's the material can be worked to top quality product, this song is a fine case.
hey Morgan. yeah, i think most 'arts' is like that. i dabble a bit in prose writing too and find i'm that same way with fiction (pretty wild stories). if i concern myself too much with 'character arcs', the 'inciting events', 'hero's journey' and such, i never get anything worthwhile done. but if i just write the damn story, regardless that it may look like a 12 yr old did it in early drafts, then i get thru start to finish with some pretty good ideas. that's what i call that creative 'kid' inside that fortunately never grew up.

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I also believe in that principle. First reactions are very important, if not crucial. Some of my best drumming work has been the product of working from the heart and instant instinct reactions.

But when I master songs its a combination of audiophile instinct and analytical ears.


This track has great musicianship. And the panning decisions in the mix remind me of jazz records. Witch I think is interesting and works for this track.
that's very cool to hear. but yeah, there's definitely a time and place to bring that inner critic to the front, but with me, it's during that "refine later" part--and he has to be there when mixing comes in to play. i think it's cool as hell savvy folk like yourself hang around here.

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Saturday morning here in East London. Got a coffee steaming next to me.
Put this track on, listened, and now I'm set up for the day with a smile on my face.
Lovely vox and great song/arrangement.
I agree about solidifying the bottom end a bit and I might just bring the lead guitar back a bit, so's it sits in the track a little more.
Sounds like MTM + to me.

(So sorry not been in touch for such a long time Kev - all well but just been tied up with work and family.)
spike! when i posted this, the first thing in mind was "what will collectively get the most 'complaints' and what will get the least." LOW END! heh. now i know where to concentrate and i think i may have a hold on the 'brightness' thru some recent experimentation. i can't get this info anywhere else.
good to start the day with a smile.
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:21 PM   #29
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Hey TNS, just added a link to your mastered file so folks can see a before and after.
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:39 PM   #30
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I had fun with this track, thanks sammydix for letting me work on it. The main foot print was in the analogue domain.

Thanks to some of the great free tools in reaper I seamlessly used
js: utility/kanakaMSEncoder1 - Reainsert - js:utility/KanakaMS5
to create a mid side processing chain. then ran it threw my safe sound audio dynamic tool box VCA compressor (very clean) and a rebuilt klarkteknik dn410 surgical EQ (can be very warm). some de-essing , voxengo dithering right before conversion.
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:26 AM   #31
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Finally got round to having a listen to this. I knew it would be good you guys pull it off every time. First part I'm straight into the groove, thinking cool.

Somewhere along the line Ima thinking " I know this sound. Maybe I shouldn't, becauae maybe it wasn't meant, and I put it down to my limited number of great bands.

Yes that's it. A little drier, and maybe an altered chord. Kev's guitar tone convinced me though.

Steely Dan, with a female vocal - very nice too

Sammy knows I love his voice. Sammy's writing is often a bit out there, but this isn't. It has a very relaxed feel. I could say more, I need another listen.

Well I guess you know I'm not the best critic of mixes, but I would like the kick a bit more up front. I might like it drier as well, but I might be raining on your picnic.

What I loved though was Kev's guitar. Absolutely magnificent tone played just right for the track. Pure Steely Dan tone that is. I never got that close, and god I have tried. would you care to tell me how you got that tone Kev

You guys are cooking
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:33 AM   #32
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Full marks to TNS on making this great track even more enjoyable.
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:32 AM   #33
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[...](So sorry not been in touch for such a long time Kev - all well but just been tied up with work and family.)
No problem, my friend. Believe me, I know how it is!

The Shepherd Moon will rise.


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I had fun with this track, thanks sammydix for letting me work on it. The main foot print was in the analogue domain.

Thanks to some of the great free tools in reaper I seamlessly used
js: utility/kanakaMSEncoder1 - Reainsert - js:utility/KanakaMS5
to create a mid side processing chain. then ran it threw my safe sound audio dynamic tool box VCA compressor (very clean) and a rebuilt klarkteknek dn410 surgical EQ (can be very warm). some de-essing , voxengo dithering right before conversion.
TNS, I just took a listen to the mastered version. It sounds fantastic. Sammy already had an excellent mix with a great sense of depth to it, and you really did it justice by maintaining the integrity of it and tightening it up. Very nice work!


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Finally got round to having a listen to this. I knew it would be good you guys pull it off every time. First part I'm straight into the groove, thinking cool.

Somewhere along the line Ima thinking " I know this sound. Maybe I shouldn't, becauae maybe it wasn't meant, and I put it down to my limited number of great bands.

Yes that's it. A little drier, and maybe an altered chord. Kev's guitar tone convinced me though.

Steely Dan, with a female vocal - very nice too

Sammy knows I love his voice. Sammy's writing is often a bit out there, but this isn't. It has a very relaxed feel. I could say more, I need another listen.

Well I guess you know I'm not the best critic of mixes, but I would like the kick a bit more up front. I might like it drier as well, but I might be raining on your picnic.

What I loved though was Kev's guitar. Absolutely magnificent tone played just right for the track. Pure Steely Dan tone that is. I never got that close, and god I have tried. would you care to tell me how you got that tone Kev

You guys are cooking
Thank you so much, Tedwood. I always and invariably admire the tone you are able to achieve, so it means so much for me to know that this is working for you.

Warning for non-guitarists before continuing! Your eyes may glaze over if you read the following...

The lead tone uses the S-Gear amp, The Wayfarer. Clean channel, gain around 1/2, mid switch engaged (this adds a subtle, yet almost indescribable character that feels like additional depth), pre poweramp EQ engaged and pulled down a bit at 740 to keep the honk out. I bypassed the S-Gear cabinets (which do sound very good) and went into Mercuriall Cab. Mercuriall is wonderful. For me, it changes the feel quite a bit in that it introduces an additional sense of depth and a perception that the guitar was occupying a point in space. Abstract 'felt more than heard' kind of stuff. Bridge humbucker with the tone rolled way down (probably to somewhere between 2 - 4) to get a balance of picking up all those nice, bright bridge harmonics (so the octave parts would have nice overtones) without getting too bright overall. Volume pot almost wide open - maybe around 9 or so. I just played around with all the knobs until it sounded complimentary and sat well. Didn't touch anything when the recording was done. Tone out is tone in (although Sammy likely did some post EQ).
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:38 AM   #34
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Hey Fish, thanks for the techno spiel. I'm just going to put some eye drops in.


On a more serious note: lovely guitar playing and I was impressed by all of the subtley that you were able to bring to the work.

Mucho nice.
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Old 09-22-2013, 07:22 PM   #35
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Hey Fish, thanks for the techno spiel. I'm just going to put some eye drops in.


On a more serious note: lovely guitar playing and I was impressed by all of the subtley that you were able to bring to the work.

Mucho nice.
LOL

Thanks Sambo. I always appreciate the time you take to comment, and the insights you offer (especially about my BASS... did I mention the BASS?).

Seriously, though, thank you very much.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:20 AM   #36
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Nice!!! Vocals are superb. Nice song overall. The bells are awesome.

Since it's been said before, I won't mention the bass end needs to be more pronounced. I put a 6dB bass shelf at 130Hz that helped a little here.

Also, if it were me, I'd put a LP the bass to kill the pick and slide sounds on the bass guitar too. I love the bass but the high end element is distracting.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:22 AM   #37
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Surprising turns of melody – really nice. I love that bass gtr sound, the way the attack on notes is articulated. Sexy female vocal. I like the intro - with the timing of the drumset entrance but the room ambience of the drums, coming in as they did, sounded mismatched to that of the guitar. Good guitar work!
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:25 AM   #38
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Since it's been said before, I won't mention the bass end needs to be more pronounced. I put a 6dB bass shelf at 130Hz that helped a little here.

Also, if it were me, I'd put a LP the bass to kill the pick and slide sounds on the bass guitar too. I love the bass but the high end element is distracting.
The suggestions you give would sound nice, But this is a good example that mixing is very subjective. If the bass was to be remixed in this manner (6db is a huge step) an leveling compressor would half to be used witch would sound very different.

and yes the picking is very slapy, but if you were to cut it completely the bass would sound very dark. I think a fast multiband compressor with the right crossover settings would possibly sound better than just LP filtering the bass entirely. this would cut the offending frequencies while still retaining the high end transients that are desired.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:16 AM   #39
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The suggestions you give would sound nice, But this is a good example that mixing is very subjective. If the bass was to be remixed in this manner (6db is a huge step) an leveling compressor would half to be used witch would sound very different.
Yup.

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and yes the picking is very slapy, but if you were to cut it completely the bass would sound very dark. I think a fast multiband compressor with the right crossover settings would possibly sound better than just LP filtering the bass entirely. this would cut the offending frequencies while still retaining the high end transients that are desired.
That's why I said "if it were me". I think there is enough high freq components elsewhere that enhance the sound. My preference would to cut it from the bass completely. In the end Sammy will do what he feels is right for the song.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:23 AM   #40
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Nice!!! Vocals are superb. Nice song overall. The bells are awesome.

Since it's been said before, I won't mention the bass end needs to be more pronounced. I put a 6dB bass shelf at 130Hz that helped a little here.

Also, if it were me, I'd put a LP the bass to kill the pick and slide sounds on the bass guitar too. I love the bass but the high end element is distracting.
thanks Shemp! i did the shelf, but to me it sounded slightly too thick with the 6db boost, but at about 4db it sounded much fuller. good call. now i do like high end on my basses (both from on my mixes and pro bands too), but i went overboard here. i think it's beyond distracting. one of those 'after the fact' "how the hell did i let that pass?" kinda things. very cool suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler View Post
Surprising turns of melody – really nice. I love that bass gtr sound, the way the attack on notes is articulated. Sexy female vocal. I like the intro - with the timing of the drumset entrance but the room ambience of the drums, coming in as they did, sounded mismatched to that of the guitar. Good guitar work!
hey TL and thanks. did you mean my (rhythm) guitar or Kevin's lead? because i did have a bit of spring on my guitar and maybe that could have caused the 'mismatch'.
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