Old 04-12-2015, 07:04 PM   #1
nozehed
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 55
Default Smart Split

I find I spend a lot of time cleaning up the artefacts of splitting a MIDI item. I would like there to be options in the behaviour of splitting as there are different needs for different situations.

Option 1 - (default) the current behaviour.
Option 2 - If a note overlaps the split point, then leave it in the left item with its current duration. Don't add it to the right item.
Option 3 - If a note overlaps the split point, trim it so it starts at the start of the right item and is no longer in the left item.
Option 4 - If a note overlaps the split point, trim it so it ends at the end of the left item and is no longer in the right item.

Feature Request : http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=5567

Last edited by nozehed; 04-17-2015 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Added link to feature request
nozehed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 03:56 PM   #2
SonicAxiom
Human being with feelings
 
SonicAxiom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,014
Default

we've been waiting for something like this for some time now: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=120327
SonicAxiom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 04:16 PM   #3
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

i don't see why splitting an item has to affect a note in any way shape or form.

why can't reaper just precalculate when to end a note when it gets to the note start? why does it need to wait for the note off message? much of the time this will not coincide with the end of the item, especially if you are doing pattern or loop-based (i.e. musical-length item) arrangements, as most electronic artists are.

NI Maschine works correctly in this regard. even if you switch to another item (pattern) in the middle of playback, all currently playing notes still finish when they were supposed to, based on their length.

in reaper you get either hanging notes or truncated notes, take your pick.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 07:11 PM   #4
nozehed
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 55
Default

I'm glad to see that other people want/need this feature. Hopefully the reaper devs will add it soon.
nozehed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 08:48 AM   #5
ivan.lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
why can't reaper just precalculate when to end a note when it gets to the note start? why does it need to wait for the note off message? much of the time this will not coincide with the end of the item, especially if you are doing pattern or loop-based (i.e. musical-length item) arrangements, as most electronic artists are.
I don't think MIDI was supposed to work that way but it would be cool if Reaper were that intelligent. On screen, will these notes stick out beyond the item's end?
ivan.lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 09:18 AM   #6
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.lt View Post
I don't think MIDI was supposed to work that way but it would be cool if Reaper were that intelligent. On screen, will these notes stick out beyond the item's end?
in the editor, that would be useful, but not in the arrange view. but you're right of course, a midi note is a note on and a note off.

however, it's also not the 80s anymore. i doubt vintage synths had the capacity to read ahead like reaper can. no reason reaper should operate like a vintage synth. other daws have managed to bring it up to date for modern usage. i hope reaper will too.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 01:03 PM   #7
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Yep. When it comes to communication with VSTi or other devices it's of course necessary to use note off (or note on velocity 0), but it surely could use length for calculation. Reaper's hard split is indeed one of the most annoying aspects that needs to be adressed rather sooner than later. There's been plenty of discussion about it over the years.

There's nothing modern about it, really. Logic, Cubase and Cakewalk could split MIDI items (whatever their name for it is) amidst notes with all reasonable options at least in 1998, probably earlier. Pretty sure others could, too.

Last edited by gofer; 04-16-2015 at 01:09 PM.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 01:15 PM   #8
FnA
Human being with feelings
 
FnA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,173
Default

Seems like it would have to put faint "peaks" at least into the envelope lanes and folders.
FnA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 02:08 PM   #9
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

I think that's minutia. Would be good but personally I could live without. Much rather than without proper splitting options.

Where it would be nice to have some indication that a note rings further than an item edge would be in the inline editor (in piano roll you can see stuff outside item bounds, so it's easier there). IMO, it could be as simple as some specially drawn note-end-edge, just to tell that the note doesn't really stop where it looks as if and you'll need to drag the item edge out to see the full thing or to edit the end edge.
Actually, the old Emagic Logic didn't have any indication for it, even in its piano roll (which was restricted to show only the content within "item" boundaries). It could be a bit weird at times that you couldn't seem to grab the visible end of a note, but you just knew when that was the case, then the note was longer than what you saw, so never a big deal. Really, the option to let notes ring out through a split is much more important than its visuals.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 03:31 PM   #10
FnA
Human being with feelings
 
FnA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,173
Default

Yeah, I didn't mean to say it was more important. Actually seems like "the easy part" of the deal. Unless something changed recently, you can't really rely on trimmed or stretched items NOW. Glue, glue, glue. So if it was a complete remodel of MIDI items, it might not be too bad of a thing. But who knows what would have to change, and what would get broken by it. You maybe do, more than the average user.
FnA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 12:18 PM   #11
mikeroephonics
Human being with feelings
 
mikeroephonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,533
Default

Thanks for making this request! If I recall correctly, Cubase has a similar way of handling MIDI Item splits. This is something I have thought about before, so I'll add some ideas to this request.

I'd like to see these MIDI Item split options both in:

- Preferences > Project > Media Item Defaults:
When splitting a MIDI Media Item: (drop-down menu. Choose one)
[Just split notes] (default)
[Left of split: extend Item to initial note end position, Right of split: delete note]
[Left of split: trim note end to split position, Right of split: delete note]
[Left of split: delete note Right of split: trim note start to split position]

as well as...

- Key-bindable Actions:
- Section: Main
- Action Names:

- Set MIDI Item Split Mode: Just split notes

- Set MIDI Item Split Mode:
Left of split: extend Item to initial note end position,
Right of split: delete note

- Set MIDI Item Split Mode:
Left of split: trim note end to split position,
Right of split: delete note

- Set MIDI Item Split Mode:
Left of split: delete note
Right of split: trim note start to split position

- Cycle MIDI Item Split Mode (cycles through all 4 split modes)

- A corresponding "MIDI Item Split Mode" Icon for Toolbars (this Icon would need 4 pictures.)

Left-clicking the "MIDI Item Split Mode" Icon should cycle through these 4 split modes. This cycling behavior currently exists with the "Ripple Editing" Icon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Option 1 - (default) the current behaviour.
Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Option 2 - If a note overlaps the split point, then leave it in the left item with its current duration. Don't add it to the right item.
Bear in mind that this option would require that the post-split left Item would need to be extended to the right, and therefore overlap with the post-split right Item. This is because the left Item would be extended to preserve the pre-split MIDI Note length.

To reduce instances of Item overlaps, an intelligent system to analyze the post-split right Item could be implemented. A post-split, Smart Item Trim, if you will. This would analyze the portion of the post-split right Item which overlaps with the post-split left Item. The analyzer would decide to either do nothing, or extend the right Item's start time.

Here's how:

- If there is MIDI data within the overlap area of the post-split right Item, the post-split right Item's start time is unaffected.

- If there is no MIDI data within the overlap area of the post-split right Item, the post-split right Item's start position is moved to the right, placed exactly after the post-split left Item end position. This eliminates the overlap between the two Items, and also leaves no gap between the two Items.

I think this analyzer should be a preference (off by default):
[ ] When splitting MIDI Items, remove resulting overlaps in post-split MIDI Items if right Item's overlap area contains no MIDI data

The above preference should be greyed out unless the following Smart Split mode is enabled, as it is the only split mode in which it's relevant :
[Left of split: extend Item to initial note end position, Right of split: delete note]

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Option 3 - If a note overlaps the split point, trim it so it starts at the start of the right item and is no longer in the left item.
Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Option 4 - If a note overlaps the split point, trim it so it ends at the end of the left item and is no longer in the right item.
Sounds good.

Please add your request to the Issue Tracker so it can be voted for:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?projectid=2

Thanks,
Mike
__________________
Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.
mikeroephonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 05:42 PM   #12
nozehed
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 55
Default

Thanks for fleshing that out Mike. I've added a feature request to the issue tracker as you suggested.
nozehed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 05:51 PM   #13
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Thanks for fleshing that out Mike. I've added a feature request to the issue tracker as you suggested.
link it in your OP, please, and link this thread there, so people don't try to discuss in the tracker.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 05:53 PM   #14
nozehed
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 55
Default

Sorry, I don't know what OP is.
nozehed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 05:54 PM   #15
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nozehed View Post
Sorry, I don't know what OP is.
original post, i do believe. you can edit it.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2015, 05:58 PM   #16
nozehed
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 55
Default

gotcha, done.
nozehed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 12:16 AM   #17
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

thanks voted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post

Bear in mind that this option would require that the post-split left Item would need to be extended to the right, and therefore overlap with the post-split right Item. This is because the left Item would be extended to preserve the pre-split MIDI Note length.
I don't think I would want that. Most likely I did the split at that point on the timeline for a reason. Reaper should simply be able to let the notes ring out until their proper end, even if the note-offs happen to be after the (post-split left) item end edge. The split would be where I put it and no overlapping items would be needed.
Of course the visuals would be wrong - you'd see a note that visually ends at the item edge, but it actually plays on - but I'd gladly live with that.

Technically that's no problem (in general that is, it might still be a problem specifically with the way Reaper handles MIDI). When a note-on is found a program can just search forward in the MIDI source for the apropriate note-off, calculate the length and then fire the note-off when it's due time, item edge or not.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 12:43 AM   #18
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Reaper should simply be able to let the notes ring out until their proper end, even if the note-offs happen to be after the (post-split left) item end edge. The split would be where I put it and no overlapping items would be needed.
Of course the visuals would be wrong - you'd see a note that visually ends at the item edge, but it actually plays on - but I'd gladly live with that.
yes just like that. but it would be helpful if those notes visually extended past the midi item container, both in the folder track, and particularly the MIDI editor.

it's another constant source of irritation not being able to move notes around in the ME because one of them is bumping into the edge of the item.

"revolving-door" nudge would be good too. so nudging any notes all the way past an item end would move them to the start automatically (and vice versa). useful for example if you've played all your notes slightly early and the "first" note of the item actually starts at the very end. maschine does that as well.

perhaps a little bonus of this feature would be the ability to drag notes completely outside an item to remove them.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 02:09 AM   #19
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
it's another constant source of irritation not being able to move notes around in the ME because one of them is bumping into the edge of the item.
There is the option "Allow MIDI note edit to extend the media item" to avoid that (MIDI editor: Options menu). Does not work for CC, though.

In Logic, which allowed for notes to start inside but end outside visible item bounds, an edit which shove a note outside boundaries would spawn a dialog to ask whether you want the item to be made longer or not (with a don't ask again checkbox). Any note starting within the item would ring until their natural end in both cases. I think (not sure now, notes placed completely outside (start after item end) were discarded.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 09:26 AM   #20
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

yes but that just creates other problems. hopefully this fr will be implemented someday soon.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 09:49 AM   #21
mikeroephonics
Human being with feelings
 
mikeroephonics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,533
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Of course the visuals would be wrong - you'd see a note that visually ends at the item edge, but it actually plays on - but I'd gladly live with that.

Technically that's no problem (in general that is, it might still be a problem specifically with the way Reaper handles MIDI). When a note-on is found a program can just search forward in the MIDI source for the apropriate note-off, calculate the length and then fire the note-off when it's due time, item edge or not.
I think this is a good idea for some workflows, however, since audio media items do not work this way, it could be confusing to some users. Audio items always stop at the item end. I'd personally like MIDI items to act the same as audio items.

This preference would give users the option:
[ ] Allow MIDI notes extending past item ends to play fully

I understand the technical reasons for wanting the MIDI notes to play fully, but the option for consistency between audio items and MIDI items should be possible.
__________________
Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.

Last edited by mikeroephonics; 04-18-2015 at 09:57 AM.
mikeroephonics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 11:37 AM   #22
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
I'd personally like MIDI items to act the same as audio items.
but they don't. and imo, this is the only place they should.
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=4530
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2015, 03:46 PM   #23
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Of course, if you and others think that the option your talking about should be there, I'm the last to say it shouldn't. But it's not what I need, I wouldn't use it.

Automatically changing item edge positions after you perform a split would be a glaring difference between MIDI and audio item behavior, too, don't you think? I don't believe real consistency between audio and MIDI is possible in the first place.

If you let eg EzDrummer (or most any drum plugin) play a cymbal at the very end of an item, that will ring out after the item end too. And it's not too confusing. If you think about it, that's actually not so very different from the "let MIDI note ring until it's natural end" capability we're talking about (I mean in looks and sound, not from a code point of view, obviously).

I'd just simply like a better split for MIDI note content, with no doubled note starts, with fully preserved note length and please at the timestamp I choose, not where Reaper deems it acceptable.

As said, there could be visual clues about audible "outside content", even though in my experience it's not much of a problem if there's not.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2015, 01:57 AM   #24
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Another inherent problem with Reaper wanting to use MIDI items instead of allowing MIDI whole tracks.
Ah well... at least I have figured out how to deal with all the (to me) unnecessary cutting splitting pasting selecting etc., now.

And as Tod has said, you CAN always make your MIDI item one big track.

Workflow.....
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 10:24 PM   #25
cubic13
Human being with feelings
 
cubic13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
Default

Bump !

Devs, as Reaper 5 is officially released now, please consider adding this to it before the apparition of the score editor (circa 5.1, I've been told...). It's truely something missing for any accurate MIDI editing operation.
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
cubic13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 04:47 AM   #26
Lazarus
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,355
Default

+1 on everything gofer said.
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2015, 04:03 AM   #27
Lazarus
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,355
Default

If anybody wants to test a smart splitting script, then you can get it from the bunch of scripts here...

https://github.com/Lazzle/ReaMIDI

... and give feedback there, here or in this thread...

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165168

There are some options of how you want it to behave that you can edit in the script in the main folder (Smart Split - extend), I have it set up so that it catches early notes and it extends the left hand item to catch all long notes.

It does audio too (normal split there) so you can just replace your S action with it if you like it.

(ps, I've fixed some bugs lately so notes right at the split point are no longer shortened and a couple of other things if you've tried it before)
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 06:33 AM   #28
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
Default

Reading through this. It may turn out that there is no way to accomplish the desired behavior within the way REAPER works, with respect to takes and media items, But just for conversation purposes...

Any solution that requires MIDI notes to continue to play beyond the end of the media item is probably unworkable, as is automatically moving the split point.

In this base case, when splitting at the cursor:



It might be possible to have an option that would result in:



However, that behavior would not be compatible with the default option for new recording that overlaps existing media items -> split existing items and create new takes. Currently, with the default settings, a new recording over the MIDI item shown in the first image above, that ends at the cursor, results in this:



For compatibility with an option to preserve note lengths while splitting, either the user would have to change the default overlapping-recording setting to create new media items, which basically disables takes, and results in this:



Or, the recording length would have to be adjusted, to result in this:



But, that last solution may be too chaotic.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 07:35 AM   #29
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

subscribed

Thank you for looking into this schwa!

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post

It might be possible to have an option that would result in:



However, that behavior would not be compatible with the default option for new recording that overlaps existing media items -> split existing items and create new takes.
I don't understand why it should not be compatible.
Yes, item-edges would be trimmed,
but I don't see a problem in that.

This is just what I have to do manually if I today would like to comp midi. Works well.

It could be a preference:
- Keep item-splits exact (as today)
- Trim items to avoid splitting notes
- Insanely smart mode, schwa special, include only notes that have centre on item side

(One major principle in Reaper is doing everything non-destructive. Yet, current way for midi "split existing items and create new takes" is in fact destructive.)
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp

Last edited by G-Sun; 11-19-2015 at 07:43 AM.
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 07:51 AM   #30
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
I don't understand why it should not be compatible.
Using my first image above as a base case, could you post a screenshot of what you think it should look like after adding a new MIDI recording that starts at the project start, and ends at the cursor?
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 08:29 AM   #31
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Using my first image above as a base case, could you post a screenshot of what you think it should look like after adding a new MIDI recording that starts at the project start, and ends at the cursor?
Yes,

it would be like this (no splitting)


or this (trimmed edges):


On 10:2 there can be no splitting.
Item edge trim is optional.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 08:42 AM   #32
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
Default

Unless I misunderstand, that's essentially the same result as the fourth screenshot in my post above, which can be done currently by setting the overlapping-recording preference to create new media items. There are no takes in your screenshots.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 08:49 AM   #33
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Unless I misunderstand, that's essentially the same result as the fourth screenshot in my post above, which can be done currently by setting the overlapping-recording preference to create new media items. There are no takes in your screenshots.
Well, that's right.
But that counts for this special case only.

Normal workflow would be new record landing on one other item only,
and then the suggestion in your first post would be very good.

I understand there are some less than ideal choices to be made,
but getting the basics right, and then opt out to "new recording in new lane" on special cases, would seem like an ideal solution.

Others can chime in if they see a better way
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 09:18 AM   #34
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Thinking it through a little bit,
I see there are some problems.

Like if recording over a highly split track,
and items needs to be extended for new notes, but then what about those in other lanes outside edge?

I suggest leaving a preference for split into takes mode:
If conflicting notes
- Split precise, split notes (current behavior)
- New recorded media makes new lane

I could see myself using both preferences here in different scenario.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2015, 02:06 PM   #35
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Any solution that requires MIDI notes to continue to play beyond the end of the media item is probably unworkable
That's easily the baddest news I've yet heard with respect to Reaper in all the years I'm here. Does the word "probably" mean there is at least a glimpse of a chance?
If I understand it right, the dilemma you show in your example scenario would be a non-issue if the "play notes beyond media item end" problem could be solved. It might be worth some effort.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 01:21 AM   #36
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
That's easily the baddest news I've yet heard with respect to Reaper in all the years I'm here. Does the word "probably" mean there is at least a glimpse of a chance?
If I understand it right, the dilemma you show in your example scenario would be a non-issue if the "play notes beyond media item end" problem could be solved. It might be worth some effort.
Schwa points out there is no perfect solution for this for any daw.
Yet, I see no reason we can't make it as good as possibel.

For a track with no overlapping midi-items,
a new recording can be made, with "split existing items and create new takes" engaged, and it could be done perfectly, without any split notes.
And, that would be a big step forward.

So, I suggest 3 preference options
for "split existing items and create new takes":
1) Split precise, split notes (as today)
2) Extend items to contain edge-notes, fall back to #1 on conflicting notes
3) Extend items to contain edge-notes, fall back to "record to new lane" on conflicting notes
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:20 AM   #37
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Then,
on "split precise" (current)

there is a question.
Should notes be split in two at all?

I believe no.
Making 1 existing notes into 2 is just not right.
That's an error.

Yet, I see the technical reason for this.
Should we compromise right side events by deleting the note there?

I propose muting it on the right side.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp

Last edited by G-Sun; 11-20-2015 at 03:27 AM.
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:32 AM   #38
G-Sun
Human being with feelings
 
G-Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
Default

Schwa: Please tell me if you'd like me to walk through the different scenarios, and how it should/could be solved.
But I wont do this unless there's a need for it.

Best would be if you made a start,
and we could chime in in prerelease.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
G-Sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 04:21 AM   #39
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Schwa points out there is no perfect solution for this for any daw.
Yet, I see no reason we can't make it as good as possibel.
My reaction is about the part I quoted. Letting notes ring out beyond the item end is in my opinion the best solution for splitting amidst MIDI notes, for several reasons (does not change audible result and does not create overlapping items with the issue Schwa is describing). It is done in other daws and the result has been perfect for me. What I am getting out of Schwa's comment is that while there are better solutions in other daws, Reaper won't be able to pull it off. Whatever we will get will be as good as possible for Reaper, but not as good as possible in the daw world.
And that really frustrates me a lot.



Any solution without letting notes ring out beyound item end will either
a) double the notes (as currently)
b) alter either note start time or note end time (where both alternatives are changing note length)
c) create overlapping items (Schwa's suggestion)

a) and b) cause significant changes in the audible output. c) - while significantly better than the other two - causes the problem Schwa is pointing at (because it creates overlapping items). It also causes the item edges to not be at the point where I decided to split, which I don't like because it defeats my intention to put the split where I did. All of these 3 possible results are not what I consider as good as possible.

I am saying all this in an attempt to make Schwa think some more about whether it might be possible to pull the trick off in Reaper, because I am conviced that the result is worth quite some effort.
Otherwise, c) is worlds better than what we currently have, so provided that a better way is unworkable I certainly agree with trying to get the best compromise possible in Reaper. As you say, best in practice in a round of pre-releases.

Last edited by gofer; 11-20-2015 at 04:27 AM.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 04:54 AM   #40
snooks
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
It also causes the item edges to not be at the point where I decided to split, which I don't like because it defeats my intention to put the split where I did.
I don't think the example is the best because the split point does not have to ever move from where you are splitting unless you want to catch early notes, which isn't done in other DAWs I've used anyway. The example should result in an empty item starting at the split point with the original one left intact.

Re recording, I think that new takes should be created in both items, which are overlapping and playing anyway. The thing I'd like to see changed would be where recorded MIDI is placed in the overlapping item (no FIPM) situation.

At the moment they are recorded into the new take(s) in both overlapping items. This isn't ideal, they should really be recorded into the latest item (whilst still creating takes in any item where other notes are recorded) the note/event start can be placed in. In overdub mode they are only placed in the new take in the earliest item, when this should probably be the latest too.

This leaves the situation where you record a new take and notes that start in the earlier item extend beyond the initial split point. In this case the left item could be extended to accommodate the new note length.
snooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.