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Old 08-25-2015, 01:15 AM   #1
The Telenator
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Default So, You Think YOU Make Mistakes?

Strange that I have never seen this website linked into any audio or workstation forum ever before, but I just love reading a few of the very many entries every now and then.

I think what else is important here, besides the fact that these actually happened in the first place, is that too many people (including too many musicians and audio engineers) have always treated the Bealtles and their production staff (George Martin foremost and loftiest of all) as some kind of gods. Yea, they even have received worship.

Say, I'm not saying that the Beatles and chaps the likes of Martin aren't extremely talented. I used to listen to this stuff a lot while growing up. I particularly respect the talent and abilities of George Martin at the controls!

But they are human after all, and this site helps put their feets back on mortal soil. Besides all this, I just think the things that happened are incredibly interesting and informative. What do you think? What to mention any particular faux pas?

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Old 08-25-2015, 03:47 AM   #2
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hm. so what?

I knew that for the last 50 years, that the Beatles were mortal. you could have evidence on that on the dec. 8th in 1980.

and there are faults in the recordings. again: so what?

they are not worshipped because of 100% perfect recordings, they are worshipped for their MUSIC.

so a little boy came up and made a list of what he assumes faulty in Beatles-recordings. wow! its like searching for typos in Shakespeares work.

I consider this website as meaningless. sure do a lot of other people. thats why its never mentioned in any music-related forum. you can make off this website a Trivial Pursuit set.

oh, and the question of what underwear they were wearing while recording Sgt.Pepper is still not answered. I believe, they - the Beatles - will be a mystery forever.
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:58 AM   #3
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Huh?,really?
Talk about an easy target. Why do people seek to rip apart works of art like this? They were a product of their time and technical restraints.

Yes of course the Beatles recordings are crude and riddled with issues, anyone with a set of working ears knows this. You listen through the problems to enjoy the music. Non of it is worthy audiophile reference recordings!

They were a pop band, in many respects a highly innovative pop band. Certainly not Gods.

Reminds me of those TV programs when the presenter breaks down all the tricks of the trade, then calls them mistakes.
"Look, his hair miraculously grows in this scene" "Window open, Window closed!" "look it's the same people wondering around in a circle" "look away and she's wearing a slightly different shirt" "look he couldn't have punched him at that angle because...." "the car has now regained a wheel!".....

I pity the poor buggers that watch a movie for the 1st time, or listen to a piece of music to actually look for the cracks in production. It's all artifice. Enjoy it for what it is.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:39 AM   #4
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They were probably not gods but still, each time I relisten to them, a kind of magic reappears.

Just two examples : Tomorrow never knows and Strawberry fields forever. Two pieces that are stuck in my mind forever indeed. Let's remember that it was 1966/7 days, with all the technical limitations of its time. AFAIK, the latter piece was one of the first ones in which a mellotron was used, and for the best.

I truely believe that the so called 'anomalies' are what, paradoxically, make these kind of pieces stand out from any other stuff released since. The lesson ? There is no true rule about how things should be done : the Fab four and George martin have proven this in the most beautiful way...
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post

...... oh, and the question of what underwear they were wearing while recording Sgt.Pepper is still not answered....
Well THERE's a Magical Mystery Tour I don't ever want to take!
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:51 AM   #6
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Prolly the feel of a good take or edit overruled any but the most glaring technical barriers such as a somewhat incompatible and possibly unresolveable eq of two takes stuck together.

I also imagine that there were comings and goings with band members dropping in with good ideas to the studio, playing insts other than their usual, engineers absent at times; now and then a great take when least expected, in a rehearsal session with stuff still being set up by people discussing technical issues or putting in their lunch order....

Its a curious topic and still relevant today imo bc of performance dynamics vs edit...
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:15 AM   #7
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I agree with most of this but cubic got it right about the magic. After 50 years of listening to their music I am really no nearer why this should be the case especially as over the years it has all been dissected pretty much in terms of musical and technical detail. Now much of this is amazing enough in its subtlety, surprising complexity and inventiveness but at their best they seemed to transcend their influences and do what all of us creative people seem to want which is create an emotional world that engages, surprises and above all moves people's hearts.
And their legacy in terms of recording is present anytime you open Reaper and doubletrack a vocal, compress a guitar or apply ADT etc. No, they weren't the only studio innovators but their influence cannot be denied.
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:37 AM   #8
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LOL
I can't believe that people would put that much time into trying to find things wrong with records.

I've never particularly liked the Beatles and I just don't get the whole obsessive compulsive behavior around this type of site to micro analyze everything they ever did or said.

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Old 08-25-2015, 08:46 AM   #9
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Tough crowd here sometimes. I just took OP's post in context with this Forum and relentless focus on recording/mixing/mastering ad infinitum.

I almost made a new post myself last week wanting to know how Reaperites feel about the majority of popular songs and albums released these days ..... solely in terms of final mix quality. I'm always trying to learn and not yet able to analyze effectively ... even using flac streaming or downloads.

Perhaps top artists' releases are done well, but I am curious about the next tier which comprises the majority of what comes across Spotify, Tidal, et al.

@ OP. Glad I didn't post mine!
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:47 AM   #10
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Fun geeky read! Thanks for the link:-)
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:07 AM   #11
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....... I did not know the Beatles were revered as perfect studio musicians?

It's interesting when people miss the point of the Beatles.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:13 AM   #12
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the beatles were generally.... decent at their instruments. Nothing more. Not virtuoso talent there.

songwriting and production, now that's another story.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:10 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
the beatles were generally.... decent at their instruments. Nothing more. Not virtuoso talent there.

songwriting and production, now that's another story.
Sorry, I could NOT let this one go by without scathing comment!

Listen...no...really listen to Paul's bass playing.

Listen...no...REALLY listen to every guitar solo George laid down...short, sweet, concise...brilliance in minimalism!

Also...his slide playing...

Your comment clued me that you have not REALLY listened.

Just sayin'
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:19 AM   #14
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Sorry, I could NOT let this one go by without scathing comment!

Listen...no...really listen to Paul's bass playing.
Watching Paul playing/singing in real time in some of the Wings live shows helps get that across I think. And yes, Paul is a fantastic musician, and not just on bass.

As far as the main post, I don't have a problem with it. It's something everyone should experience along the way because it helps make it clear that perfection doesn't come in the form everyone has led themselves to believe (especially these days).

It's NOT the little flaws and mistakes you can find, those exist everywhere, it's the larger than the sum of the parts whole that those add up that which sounds like magic. This is where I'll make my obligatory mention that today's gridded/quantized/autotuned world misses that point severely. And I'm not dismissing those tools, I'm dismissing the fallacy that that type of perfection is what matters, it isn't, which is what makes this thread worthwhile.

In other words, I think everyone should at first pursue technical perfection as part of their learning, then they should at some point 'graduate' from it and move on to the good stuff.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:02 AM   #15
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I think a couple of The Beatles evolved into being really great musicians and songwriters, but like another poster here, I too was never really a fan.

Their initial popularity was largely marketing imo, like The Jackson 5, and later on a couple of them (one in The Jackson's case) developed into being exceptional musical talents. I mean, "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" was a snappy little tune for sure but what drove it was them, their looks, their accents, a smart marketing machine, and the thousands of screaming female teens.

Just kinda like Justin Beiber from an earlier time, kinda, but granted, a couple of them did go on to definitively prove that they were way more than just that.

I never got Elvis either tbh. He was a good singer, granted, but nothing I ever saw suggested that he was a great muscian or even a decent songwriter. He was initally (I suppose) just a good looking guy that women really liked, and what women like brings everybody else, which is 80% of the battle towards being a pop star.

No matter how talented some of the Beatles turned out to be later, if they had been five chubby / ugly teens that no teenage girls would ever scream over, we'd not even be here talking abiut them now.

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Old 08-25-2015, 11:04 AM   #16
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Well, a few of you got it right. Of all, perhaps Sustenuto gets the top cigar. He actual knew how to "take the post in context". Yes, context is easily missed when you are so full of yourselves that you need to bend every new thread to your wills and preconceived attitudes. Charming, lads.

I've known for a long time that some of you aren't good readers, and even fewer are able to read between the lines.... Note first of all that the site chief called them "anomalies", as in curious and unusual items, not proof of incompetency and whatever worse you seem to envision. Let me spell that out for those of you who still can't grasp: it's a site of Beatles curiosities in their music, meant light-heartedly and missing the sorts of putdowns some here have already used in your first 25 words or less. The site is entertainment! Now, you do know what entertainment is?

Don't deal in subtleties much, a few of you?

While there is so much posted above that I could sink my teeth into, rub your noses in and so on, I'll simply keep it light and help you take your chill pills.

If nothing else, most know-it-alls talk of EMI/Abbey Road Studios and its entire staff in hushed tones, as if only immortals ran the place. Or were they surgeons? They did wear the white lab coats after all. No matter, I've heard all too much talk of the supposed perfection, exclusivity and supposedly earned snobbery from those audio "professionals" who claim to be of the same or similar cut as Abbey Road staff.

I realise now I would have done better to have posted this over on the likes of the Steinberg or Gearslutz forums, where quite a few actually believe their own B.S. and also consider themselves some kind of royalty (even if most of theirs I audition sounds plainly awful)!

Let me help some more by going back to the "so what" and reply to that. Well, there are any number of 'so whats' to the specimens on this website. Go and have a listen to the short monologue (with examples) from Todd Rundgren on his spectacular Something/Anything album, if you need to hear it from a known famous person to gain enlightenment, because if you can't see the value in practically every example, then you might be better off taking up plumbing or something similar.

Of course, I myself could say so much more -- as you'd have it coming -- but I'll just leave of with this small pearl: there are actually claim-to-be pros running around who do think the Abbey Road crew never made a mistake. And there are scads of others, players and other flavours of faux pro who haven't heard even one of these anomalies, even after 1000 plays of most of these tunes. Guess their ears aren't as pro as their claims, aye?

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Old 08-25-2015, 11:28 AM   #17
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I think a couple of The Beatles evolved into being really great musicians and songwriters, but like another poster here, I too was never really a fan.
Me either, but after I became a musician and dug in, I began to appreciate their musical choices greatly which was something I did NOT expect to occur. Especially when I started learning the tunes which caused me to have to face the "why's" in the composition which is completely different that liking a band or not on the surface.

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I never got Elvis either tbh.
Again, me either but watch his live acoustic TV appearance from 1970 in the round with his band. That guy and his band has feel out the ying/yang. I saw that show live on TV in 1970 but wasn't old enough to appreciate. Years later I watched it again and "got it".

Same for Hendrix, though he was cool and I liked his songs I never got the genius part...... Then went on to see some videos some of his live shows that were more intimate never meant to be "produced" and it was amazing to watch his command of rhythm, groove and command of the entire band while playing - which btw had nothing to do with soloing for example. I then understood.

Many get far too caught up in the marketing discussion where that really isn't the point because how good they were and what is appreciated is irrelevant to that. In other words, I'd thank the marketing for making them available to me to learn the great things I learned, not assume they were nothing special without marketing which is clearly not the case. It's just that we often have a tough time differentiating the two or assuming one dismisses the other and many of us who are musicians naturally do whatever we can to level an often mismatched playing field to make ourselves feel better.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:40 AM   #18
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Your comment clued me that you have not REALLY listened.
We all listen differently. Some of us appreciate complex technique more than others who may prefer overall songability. I'd agree that nobody in the Beatles were "virtuoso" level performers, but perhaps they simply had no interest in "showing/wanking off" and rather kept the lyrical and conceptual ideas as the higher priority. They also understood that imperfection is part of art and beauty, and there is a very high risk of editing something to death. We could all learn from their accomplishments, whether you agree with them or not, because they were after all very successful at their craft.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:40 AM   #19
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I'll have to check out that Elvis performace, thanks.

I've seen Elvis strumming the guitar quite a few times and I know he was a legitimate musician, you have to be to play well live in front of people, so there was never any doubt about that.

It just seemed to me that he didn't do anything musically with his guitar that a 1000 other guys couldn't do, so he never struck me as being an exceptional guitar player, and I'm not personally aware of any hit songs he wrote. He seemed to be remaking others songs.

Good player, absolutely, you have to be good to be bared raw with a guitar like that. Great? Not that I ever saw. Jimi on the other hand showed flashes of great musicianship right off the bat.

And the reason early marketing success may play a role in some of that (imo, development) is because of the money. If you have success early and the money starts rolling in everything goes up a notch because the budgets get bigger, so a player in that position will naturally get better along the way, especially when playing with other great (expensive) session and road musicians and producers and learning new things along the way.

I've seen very few "pop acts" where the guy out front was arguably also the best musician on stage. Prince would be a really easy one but more examples get progressively harder to find. Usually the guy out front is there for appeal and singing talent, not necessarily musicianship.

P.S. As relates to marketing, there's a singer here who is arguably one of the best female singers you'll ever hear, Jennifer Holiday. She was married to a friend fo mine, Billy Meadows, who runs a studio label here. Beyond her inital success she can't catch a break these days because she's not young and pretty and thin anymore. She'd embarass the Beyonce's of the world vocally but she can't attract the audiences who spend money.

That's why I thought "The Voice" was a rather clever idea, to pick people you can't actually see. Elvis would have done well there, he had a really nice voice. Looking the way he did (before he got fat and went to Vegas) certainly didn't hurt.

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Old 08-25-2015, 11:46 AM   #20
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I'll have ti check iut that Elvis performace, thanks.
Hopefully, you'll get the same from it but OK if not. I just remembered my dad loving Elvis and I was sort of like, "that is so lame, dude getting all that attention for wiggling his ass and winking at the ladies with those bedroom eyes while playing silly simple songs".

Years later I sat down and watched that show in it's entirety as an adult musician. It's not like I thought he was god or anything but it did hit me that what he was, at least at that time was more than I originally thought (as I sat there with my guitar trying to emulate the feel he was ripping out while he was having a conversation with someone).

I could go on and on of the bands I personally thought sucked, only to later in life, go back, listen closer and realize what I thought were mistakes, weren't, I just had my head too far up my own ass to understand it. <- Not related to his thread, just a small OT side track.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:50 AM   #21
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I wish I could say the same about some movies and TV shows... .. .
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:24 PM   #22
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Well, a few of you got it right. Of all, perhaps Sustenuto gets the top cigar. He actual knew how to "take the post in context". Yes, context is easily missed when you are so full of yourselves that you need to bend every new thread to your wills and preconceived attitudes. Charming, lads.

I've known for a long time that some of you aren't good readers, and even fewer are able to read between the lines.... Note first of all that the site chief called them "anomalies", as in curious and unusual items, not proof of incompetency and whatever worse you seem to envision. Let me spell that out for those of you who still can't grasp: it's a site of Beatles curiosities in their music, meant light-heartedly and missing the sorts of putdowns some here have already used in your first 25 words or less. The site is entertainment! Now, you do know what entertainment is?

Don't deal in subtleties much, a few of you?

While there is so much posted above that I could sink my teeth into, rub your noses in and so on, I'll simply keep it light and help you take your chill pills.

If nothing else, most know-it-alls talk of EMI/Abbey Road Studios and its entire staff in hushed tones, as if only immortals ran the place. Or were they surgeons? They did wear the white lab coats after all. No matter, I've heard all too much talk of the supposed perfection, exclusivity and supposedly earned snobbery from those audio "professionals" who claim to be of the same or similar cut as Abbey Road staff.

I realise now I would have done better to have posted this over on the likes of the Steinberg or Gearslutz forums, where quite a few actually believe their own B.S. and also consider themselves some kind of royalty (even if most of theirs I audition sounds plainly awful)!

Let me help some more by going back to the "so what" and reply to that. Well, there are any number of 'so whats' to the specimens on this website. Go and have a listen to the short monologue (with examples) from Todd Rundgren on his spectacular Something/Anything album, if you need to hear it from a known famous person to gain enlightenment, because if you can't see the value in practically every example, then you might be better off taking up plumbing or something similar.

Of course, I myself could say so much more -- as you'd have it coming -- but I'll just leave of with this small pearl: there are actually claim-to-be pros running around who do think the Abbey Road crew never made a mistake. And there are scads of others, players and other flavours of faux pro who haven't heard even one of these anomalies, even after 1000 plays of most of these tunes. Guess their ears aren't as pro as their claims, aye?
This is like a psychological car crash, and more entertaining than the apparent subject.

It's "only entertainment" but you'd like to rub people's noses in it apart from those who "got it right".

Lighten up, or it's time for a visit to uncle Sigmund.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:29 PM   #23
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Hopefully, you'll get the same from it but OK if not. I just remembered my dad loving Elvis and I was sort of like, "that is so lame, dude getting all that attention for wiggling his ass and winking at the ladies with those bedroom eyes while playing silly simple songs".
I never doubt anything you say when it comes to stuff like that so... yeah... before even seeing it I believe you. There are... like 6-7 ... regulars here whose musical judgement I trust in the blind and you're at the top of that list.

And in complete fairness to the dead, it's not like the musical genres Elvis played in were prone to people doing 45 second "high dexterity" guitar solos either.

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I could go on and on of the bands I personally thought sucked, only to later in life, go back, listen closer and realize what I thought were mistakes, weren't
True. Especially if you listen to good jazz but don't really understand good jazz, some things, to the outsider, kinda sound momentarily out of tune, some of the scales they dive into.

But anyway, music, mass musical success, often enough seems to be a reflection of society in general where the beautiful tend to get more... at least now in the more visual age, much less the case in the radio only age where all you cared about was the great voice coming from the radio, not that the lady was 300lbs and looked like a man.

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Old 08-25-2015, 12:38 PM   #24
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This is like a psychological car crash, and more entertaining than the apparent subject.

It's "only entertainment" but you'd like to rub people's noses in it ...
The "psychological car crash" is the fact that several of you couldn't even understand what the website was for.

The website was, at heart, "only entertainment", even though you laddies had to soil your knickers the minute you looked it over, then pitched your fits.

The aim was to "rub your noses ..." in your ignorance, not the fun site.

That's three for three missed, visco. You chaps REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension a touch.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:51 PM   #25
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The funny part is that anyone would get their knickers twisted over a random thing some unknown person did 23 years ago.

Look at the date of that post... 1992-10-28. That guy might not even still be alive, and people are getting twisted over something he said a quarter of a century ago.

Leave the Beatles alone!!!

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Old 08-25-2015, 01:09 PM   #26
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Oh ... the lads wouldn't have sussed these points either, obviously, (the 1st here was in my title), but I also had in mind when I linked that site how hard on themselves some of the lesser experienced, newer sorts are at their attempts at pro recording of their music. I've watched more than a few freak when they botch some fairly minor thing. Then lose the entire feel over the next 50 takes trying to make it 'perfect'. So, obviously (or not, depending on your reading comp skills), I linked that to show how even the most talented on both sites of the glass have all sorts of issues. Another "so what": the variety there is almost a guide of every possible studio screw up.

morgon caught another implication, "... the feel of a good take or edit overruled any but the most glaring technical barriers ..." Well, we don't hear much with that mindset posted on REAPER's or other workstation forums. Instead we get attempts at commercially slick and technically 'perfect' to show us how talented and knowledgeable they are. I'm going to say that the vast majority even here at REAPER have totally forgotten (if they ever knew) that The Song Is The Thing, replacing good sense for a bunch of trendy plugins and downloaded samples created by other people.

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Old 08-25-2015, 01:17 PM   #27
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The "psychological car crash" is the fact that several of you couldn't even understand what the website was for.

The website was, at heart, "only entertainment", even though you laddies had to soil your knickers the minute you looked it over, then pitched your fits.

The aim was to "rub your noses ..." in your ignorance, not the fun site.

That's three for three missed, visco. You chaps REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension a touch.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:22 PM   #28
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Well, we don't hear much with that mindset posted on REAPER's
Well I try, it just typically gets drowned out. I once had a mixer/editor tell me "if it sounds like a mistake, I fix it" which to me translates to "I'm bound to eventually be f'ing up something I may not understand". The flaws often are the beauty but it's going to take awhile for this perfection fad to run it's course.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:34 PM   #29
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Well I try, it just typically gets drowned out. I once had a mixer/editor tell me "if it sounds like a mistake, I fix it" which to me translates to "I'm bound to eventually be f'ing up something I may not understand". The flaws often are the beauty but it's going to take awhile for this perfection fad to run it's course.
Cripes, karbomusic, it's been ON since about the mid-'80s (roughly when the last of the Punk Rockers OD'ed and The Clash went all-commercial), and now with the option of digital perfection I fear it will outlive us all. No Punk Rock explosion to bring us back to our senses this time I guess.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:47 PM   #30
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viscofishy posted/quoted: "Forgiveness, Psychology, and Mental Health
ANYONE who has ever been victimized—and that includes survivors of crime, Rock Bands, accidents, childhood abuse, political imprisonment, warfare, and so on—must decide whether or not to forgive the perpetrator. There can be no middle ground to this decision: either you decide to forgive the person who hurt you, or you hold on to bitterness and anger.

Holding on to bitterness and anger can cause problems of their own, so if you have ever been victimized, being able to forgive your victimizer is a crucial part of your healing."


He cleverly slips the Rock Band reference into the guide. [OP falls off his chair, mouth now foaming white substance. Is it from Saran gas ... or after-effect of too many rock bands?

Now look here, me mum was a well-known psychologist and we had the most incredibly dysfunctional family in the whole county. Lot of good that did.

BTW, that last you quoted -- you're not suddenly getting religion, are you now?!?!
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:56 PM   #31
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@Telenator, you cant stand it if anybody tries to widen your narrow angled view on something or just adds a different perspective to it, cant you?
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:21 PM   #32
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I think a couple of The Beatles evolved into being really great musicians and songwriters, but like another poster here, I too was never really a fan.

Their initial popularity was largely marketing imo, like The Jackson 5, and later on a couple of them (one in The Jackson's case) developed into being exceptional musical talents. I mean, "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" was a snappy little tune for sure but what drove it was them, their looks, their accents, a smart marketing machine, and the thousands of screaming female teens.
Maybe, but some astute critics make a good case that even the early work was remarkable.

"On the surface "I Want To Hold Your Hand" is deceptively straightforward and regular in design. Its high-level form is a standard two-bridge model with only one verse (and no solo) intervening between the two bridges. Similarly, its phrase lengths appear for the most part to be symmetrically even, and its back-beat for long stretches sounds closer to conservative pop than rebelliously hard rock.
And yet, by the same token, just about everyone of the Beatles' early trademark tricks of the trade is to be found within it: the abrupt syncopations, non-intuitive two-part vocal harmony, falsetto screaming, an occasionally novel chord progression, even some elided phrasing. And of course, don't forget the overdubbed handclaps!
Perhaps it is just this paradoxical contrast between familiar and more daring elements that is at the heart of the song's phenomenal success."
From Alan W. Pollack's website.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:19 PM   #33
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Sorry, I could NOT let this one go by without scathing comment!

Listen...no...really listen to Paul's bass playing.

Listen...no...REALLY listen to every guitar solo George laid down...short, sweet, concise...brilliance in minimalism!

Also...his slide playing...

Your comment clued me that you have not REALLY listened.

Just sayin'
yeah, no - I have listened. They get blown away left and right by many others, way better than them. Paul was the most talented that way but ... yeah no their strength was their songwriting.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:21 PM   #34
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FYI i'm massive beatles fan, and I typically don't find pure virtuoso playing to be compelling to actually LISTEN to. The Beatles were kings.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:40 PM   #35
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@Telenator, you cant stand it if anybody tries to widen your narrow angled view on something or just adds a different perspective to it, cant you?
Sorry, all, because of this post I'll need to go OT to respond for a minute or two (would much rather talk about how McCartney is one of the small handful of bassists who can sing and play rather complicated bass lines at same time -- maybe Another Day).

This may come off as sounding arrogant but it's not. Arrogance is boasting, claiming to something you're not. I can back up all I claim and do.

So, Mr LightofDay, the thing is, I find I am right at least 97% of the time, so I've little reason to change my view(s). I have had an incredibly blessed, financially very rewarding, long, informative, and successful career in pro music and studio; worked, studied and practiced rather long and hard to achieve this. This is why I am rarely wrong, you see, because I only talk about things I know extremely well and have often directly experienced. Otherwise, I shut up -- I say nothing.

Now, if you are Rob Thomas telling me and giving tips and advice about writing hit, top selling songs, then I will likely listen and he could very well change my perspective; however, if you are, say, 10k Maniacs band telling me how to last for decade after decade in music and remain on the charts and keep sales of albums up and still more coming, then I'd likely tell you to bugger off good with your advice. Dead and addicted members from drugs, flash in the pan '90s music weird band, they are in the 'where are they now' bin.

On the forum here, sorry, but I do not know you and, sorry, have not had the chance to audition your stuff or hear you play your instrument. Some here I have and I can be influenced, if they are very talented. But if I know you only as some name with limited number of posts, then I must check your sources or when I can't go by what is commonly called 'the Ring of Truth'. Make sense? Sound true? Maybe is.

Life is too short and I am way too busy to do otherwise. And better to be blunt and lay down the truth than play politically correct B.S. and mislead, and be lying just to be nice. Lying is not nice in the end. Better to be straight and truthful even if it is a bit tough at first.

My view and perspective is just fine most of the time, thank you very much, and has certainly helped create and guide my personal success. Why should I change course without real facts and go off the tracks. Talk is cheap. Plenty of cheap here on these forums already, full of B.S. and misleading people. I only B.S. when clearly joking, entertaining, hoping to make readers smile. Otherwise, I'm telling you straight how it really is, sharing insights and knowledge (at no charge these days, by the way -- I've made plenty of quid and can do what I damn please anymore!). I like to be helpful, even if it ruffles someones feathers a bit.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:52 PM   #36
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I think the most important thing about the Beatles, as far as the folks on this forum are concerned is this:

When the Beatles started, recordings were made (in Britain anyway), by strictly-trained studio engineers, operating under a system of hierarchy and rules about what you could and couldn't do. Musicians played, engineers recorded. The musician was not permitted to encroach upon the engineer's territory.

The combination of the Beatles charm and naivety with George Martin's gradual willingness, against the background of their amazing success, allowed the Beatles and other artists using the recording studio as instrument.

Then musicians wanted studios in their homes, those rich enough did.

Gradually costs and equipment have become more accessible.

And here we are today. I think it is reasonable to say that the Beatles (and others) instigated this chain of events. Without it, musicians wouldn't even imagine recording a record at home.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:04 PM   #37
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I find the train spotting of beatles errors fascinating. I've been noticing the quirks since I started listening to the records, one speaker at a time, as a kid. It got me interested in recording, so I think it is important to note that George Martin wasn't really "at the controls" that often.

It was the engineer, Geoff Emerick, that was largely responsible for the way the recordings sounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Emerick

His book, "Here, There, and Everywhere," is a much more compelling and educational read than George Martin's "Al You Need is Ears," which is actually quite self aggrandizing at points.

Did you their innovations in stereo were considered gimmicks at the time, mixed in an afternoon?
They spent much longer on the mono versions. Give them a listen.


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Old 08-26-2015, 01:33 AM   #38
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I think the most important thing about the Beatles, as far as the folks on this forum are concerned is this:

When the Beatles started, recordings were made (in Britain anyway), by strictly-trained studio engineers, operating under a system of hierarchy and rules about what you could and couldn't do. Musicians played, engineers recorded. The musician was not permitted to encroach upon the engineer's territory.

The combination of the Beatles charm and naivety with George Martin's gradual willingness, against the background of their amazing success, allowed the Beatles and other artists using the recording studio as instrument.

Then musicians wanted studios in their homes, those rich enough did.

Gradually costs and equipment have become more accessible.

And here we are today. I think it is reasonable to say that the Beatles (and others) instigated this chain of events. Without it, musicians wouldn't even imagine recording a record at home.
Very good point... and then along came Mike Oldfield and another part of the do-it-all-yourself jigsaw was created (or did McCartey get there first with his first solo album...)
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:12 AM   #39
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Sorry, all, because of this post I'll need to go OT to respond for a minute or two ... I like to be helpful, even if it ruffles someones feathers a bit.
for the sake or readabilty I cut your post.

so, yes, 1. I think you are arrogant 2. I dont think you can back up your statements with what what you demand from me and others: evidence of being superior and 3. all that has nothing to do with the topic and 4. of what interest is it in regards of the music of the Beatles where they had which flaw in the production process?

you shouldnt have put up trivia as relevant information in the first place. if you do do, and insist on being that important and construction further down the arguments a competent criticism of the Beatles, you did that, what I - and many others here - pointed out: you fooled yourself into making on little, tiny aspect of the Beatles to the all other aspects shadowing most worthy aspect.

that is not going to happen. and in this context it is of no interest at all what others can do or achieve musicwise. it is of no interest how dysfunctional your famils was/is and what your mothers profession was/is.

you are trying to put up sematic smokescreens to cover up your narrow angled view on the Beatles (and I assume, you do do in every other case).

then you derail the topic in setting up all kinds of different arguments that have nothing to do with the topic you brought up.

so, yes, you cant admit that your point of view in its whole disregarded as not meaningful and start fighting in all directions, hoping to find the one point that sticks.

yes, thats childish, to say the least.

so, Mr. Telenator, its time to grow up. if you cant hear the genius in the Beatles but think the production-faults are more important - go on. everyone should have a hobby. but maybe think a bit about where that concentrating on trivialities may get you ... surely not into making good music.
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
the thing is, I find I am right at least 97% of the time
With a certainty of 99% you're wrong right there
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