Old 08-18-2010, 11:51 AM   #81
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I no longer believe in evolution either. To me, it is a ludicrous concept.
evolution = God's screwdriver

You think that an omnipotent entity couldn't manage to devise evolution and then create via evolution? If you believe in such an entity why would you assume such limitations? Do you think that no new biological entities have been created since the beginning of time?

Why?

The process of evolution could well be one of the greatest of all creations.

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Old 08-18-2010, 12:09 PM   #82
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I personally believe God created music. I also believe He created us in His image and gave us musical ability and appreciation.
I no longer believe in evolution either. To me, it is a ludicrous concept.
And I personally believe that Satan is our Master and Creator! :P
And I don't believe in people who don't believe in evolution.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:42 PM   #83
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It is pointless for me to endlessly debate with human reasoning about the things Jesus reveals about His Father to those who trust in Him, with people who endlessly trample spiritual wisdom with a preference for limited understanding.

I am not called to do this. I am called to present what I've learned with anyone who will listen. Each of us will give account to God eventually.

This is my understanding based on a living relationship with Jesus. You are all, of course, free to do what you will with it but my hands are clean before God by His mercy and grace and the blood of His Son, my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:57 PM   #84
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It is pointless for me to endlessly debate with human reasoning about the things Jesus reveals about His Father to those who trust in Him, with people who endlessly trample spiritual wisdom with a preference for limited understanding.

I am not called to do this. I am called to present what I've learned with anyone who will listen. Each of us will give account to God eventually.

This is my understanding based on a living relationship with Jesus. You are all, of course, free to do what you will with it but my hands are clean before God by His mercy and grace and the blood of His Son, my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Is this a sarcasm? Or do you really believe in this fantasy? :O

Anyway, please stick to the topic, such bullshit debates don't have anything to do with this thread.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:04 PM   #85
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Is this a sarcasm?
Nope.
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Or do you really believe in this fantasy? :O
You consider it fantasy, I consider it the truth of God.
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Anyway, please stick to the topic, such bullshit debates don't have anything to do with this thread.
Hence my reply about not entering into such fruitless debates.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:08 PM   #86
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So are we to assume this thread is only meant for people who don't believe God created music for His purposes to respond to.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:13 PM   #87
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So are we to assume this thread is only meant for people who don't believe God created music for His purposes to respond to.
It sure seems some want it that way Brian!!
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:32 PM   #88
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It sure seems some want it that way Brian!!
This is REAPER forum, not some Jewsus forum. This is technical forum, not religious forum. That's why such nonsense is not welcomed here.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:37 PM   #89
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The question was asked 'why music'Don't try to silence an answer you may not believe.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:39 PM   #90
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This topic is probably better moved to the Lounge
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:00 PM   #91
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It is pointless for me to endlessly debate with human reasoning about the things Jesus reveals about His Father to those who trust in Him, with people who endlessly trample spiritual wisdom with a preference for limited understanding.

I am not called to do this. I am called to present what I've learned with anyone who will listen. Each of us will give account to God eventually.

This is my understanding based on a living relationship with Jesus. You are all, of course, free to do what you will with it but my hands are clean before God by His mercy and grace and the blood of His Son, my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
it is, but if god existed and Jesus was his son, it wouldn't be because the debate would result in finding this truth. it so happens however, that no argument or debate will result in that conclusion.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:05 PM   #92
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So are we to assume this thread is only meant for people who don't believe God created music for His purposes to respond to.
yes. because either you believe in god, in which the question, just like any other in science, is moot, since the answer will invariably be god did it.

the idea was to take for granted that god doesn't exist and then ponder why we evolved to appreciate music, and why other animals did.

if you don't make that assumption then there is no point in even asking the question.

I had hoped not to bring creationism into this, but then i myself as well unfortunately got all involved in that, which totally avoids the question at hand.


ok, so one possible answer is that god did it, and this answer was the possible answer for every question science has wondered so far, and by virtue of people ignoring that answer and searching for another one, we figured out a bunch of stuff. and that's what i'd like to do. not just say god did it and giveup. you could never learn anything that way. right?
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:49 PM   #93
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check out 'the world is sound: nada brahma' and 'the third ear: on listening to the world' by joachim-ernst berendt. interesting reading.

agree that this topic would be more comfortable in the lounge.

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Old 08-18-2010, 03:21 PM   #94
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Maybe God needs to ditch the spaghetti code that makes up his pet species and start again with a new design philosophy.
yep, thats coming too. read the book of Revelation

I've already upset somebody here by talking of God, so rather than discuss it here, I'm happy to do it in another thread if you like.

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Old 08-18-2010, 03:27 PM   #95
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The question was asked 'why music'Don't try to silence an answer you may not believe.
This has nothing to do with silencing an answer people don't believe in.

The original question was framed in a very particular way and quite clearly was aimed at debating it solely in the context of evolution:

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ok, this is a random way off question i have thought about sometimes. have you ever wondered why music exists?

I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.

but then why or how have we evolved the abilty to create and have the appreciation for music?
Saying that god did it and that evolution is all BS anyway is not a meaningful answer to that particular question framed in that way, and it shouldn't really come as a surprise if others find that kind of contribution inappropriate or perhaps even irritating.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:44 PM   #96
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This has nothing to do with silencing an answer people don't believe in.

The original question was framed in a very particular way and quite clearly was aimed at debating it solely in the context of evolution:



Saying that god did it and that evolution is all BS anyway is not a meaningful answer to that particular question framed in that way, and it shouldn't really come as a surprise if others find that kind of contribution inappropriate or perhaps even irritating.
agreed - well said. i still think this thread would be more suited to the lounge area as, despite this being 'general discussion', most threads here are about reaper with regards to music tech/production and, being the forum nearest the top, is most likely to attract new users seeking advice and guidance on such things, not philosophical debate. (imho - as they say on 'teh interwebs')

dannii, you have posted a description of 'trolling' elsewhere on this forum in the past. i suggest you read that description again.

peace.

x

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Old 08-18-2010, 04:16 PM   #97
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Wow guys, just wow!!! It seems censorship and lack of tolerance of anything to do with God abounds here despite the fact that this is a public forum about music and the question was asked "why music?" to which I simply gave my honest and free opinion. I even stated that I know many do not share my belief but even that, it seems, is unacceptable despite the fact that music and my faith are two inseperable parts of the very core of my being.

I am saddened by this lack of tolerance and lack of acceptace. Then again, I guess this shouldn't surprise me. The very people who were meant to embrace Jesus in the first place murdered Him and people have been rejecting His faithful servants ever since!

It would even appear that some see my faith and belief in "why music?" as trolling despite the fact that my posts and contributions here in REAPER land clearly show that I value this community and have a genuine desire to help out wherever I can.
Perhaps some would prefer that I don't contribute. If you are asking me to serparate my faith from my passion for music and my contributions to this community, then that's not possible.
I would apologise for offending anyone with the mere mention of my beliefs but I am not sorry about it!!
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:19 PM   #98
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dannii, you have posted a description of 'trolling' elsewhere on this forum in the past. i suggest you read that description again.

go on. read it.

Last edited by artifus; 08-18-2010 at 04:21 PM. Reason: 'go on. read it.'
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:28 PM   #99
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dannii, you have posted a description of 'trolling' elsewhere on this forum in the past. i suggest you read that description again.

go on. read it.
Please read the addendum I was making to my post above when your trigger happy finger was reapeting what I was responding to with my edit before you repeated it.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:38 PM   #100
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Wow guys, just wow!!! It seems censorship and lack of tolerance of anything to do with God abounds here despite the fact that this is a public forum about music and the question was asked "why music?" to which I simply gave my honest and free opinion. I even stated that I know many do not share my belief but even that, it seems, is unacceptable despite the fact that music and my faith are two inseperable parts of the very core of my being.

I am saddened by this lack of tolerance and lack of acceptace. Then again, I guess this shouldn't surprise me. The very people who were meant to embrace Jesus in the first place murdered Him and people have been rejecting His faithful servants ever since!
your opinion was anticipated and accounted for in the first post of the thread. you are free to have your opinion. the things is though it was indeed accounted for in the first post, and was implied not to mention it again, for fear that would result in a creationism debate, and an offshoot of religion which would avoid the question, which has happened.

which your "all i did was give my opinion" caused, and which was anticipated along with the resulting causes of it.

so i wonder then, why did you post your opinion given all that?

i'm going to assume you didn't read the first post, or maybe thought we had forgotten all about god and the fact that god can be the answer to every question which has not yet been answered.

it's not censorship, it's common sense and respect. i would fight for your right to freely believe in what you wish to believe, but you went and took your freedom and contributed to turning this thread into what i basically had politely asked not to happen. it's not all on you though, i don't want to make it seem that way.

"What is understood, need not be discussed" -Loren Adams

i'm not sure who that is to be honest, but i liked the quote. it is understood that god can be the answer to everything, therefore it need not be mentioned. right?

or maybe you thought all of sudden everybody here, would say "oooooh riiiight, i remember now, god, of course, that must be the answer" idk, i'm not sure what your aim was. but whatever, it doesn't matter now.

it's not censorship though, and i don't think anybody is opressing you or your beliefs, we may feel real strongly against them. i will freely say for one that i am certain there is no god, and that there are many inconsistencies and logical fallacies found within the bible and subsequent ones trying to reconciliate the bible with subsequent scientific findings. but you are free to believe as you wish to believe and free to express those beliefs. but at least recognize that others don't hold those, and they can be irritating, and idk, i think it's a lack of respect to bring it up given the initial post.

you don't think so?

you can build an evolution thread if you want and list off all the things you think god created, and we can discuss those there or whatever, but it's kind of pointless here. this is not a creationism thread. it's a "how did we evolve to enjoy music" thread, for which creationism cannot be an answer, because that would be in lieu of evolution and not how evolution did something.


i can't speak for anyone else, but you won't succeed in offending me, even if you tried. but you did partake in ruining a discussion we were having, which sucks.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:40 PM   #101
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read. no ill feeling intended, take it easy. i still think your initial post to this thread was unnecessary and provocative. we are all quite aware of your beliefs from your many previous posts on numerous other threads on this forum and i fail to see how you intended to contribute to the discussion with a statement that ended with a full stop rather than a question mark. i am also disappointed that others have risen to the bait. you must surely be aware of the response such provocative statements made on public forums may have, particularly when they are irrelevant to the subject matter being discussed and the theme of the forum itself.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:44 PM   #102
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sound asleep, in case you missed it, check out 'the world is sound: nada brahma' and 'the third ear: on listening to the world' by joachim-ernst berendt.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:47 PM   #103
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I'm going to check those books out, cheers
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:48 PM   #104
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Sound Asleep, with all due respect, I did read your first post and I didn't see anything in it that stated that replies mentioning faith in God were not welcome. If that was your intention then it would've been far more appropriate to state that and I would've respected that and not replied.
As it is, I did not interpret your initial post as excluding my involvement and I simply replied with what I believe about "why music?"
I was quite prepared to leave it at that but a bunch of people thought it necessary to take my post and drag it through the mud.

If you don't want Christians replying to your topic, then simply stating as such in clear terms up front would've been beneficial.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:58 PM   #105
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Sound Asleep, with all due respect, I did read your first post and I didn't see anything in it that stated that replies mentioning faith in God were not welcome. If that was your intention then it would've been far more appropriate to state that and I would've respected that and not replied.
As it is, I did not interpret your initial post as excluding my involvement and I simply replied with what I believe about "why music?"
I was quite prepared to leave it at that but a bunch of people thought it necessary to take my post and drag it through the mud.

If you don't want Christians replying to your topic, then simply stating as such in clear terms up front would've been beneficial.
Basically your response was a typical god-botherer attempt to turn every social opportunity into a preaching session. And now you do the "I'm so hurt for being excluded scam" As if everybody isn't a wakeup to that.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:06 PM   #106
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Hmm, I don't understand why some people are getting so hot and bothered about a post they disagree with. If you ignore something, it no longer will bother you.

The ironic thing is, those who feel Dannii's initial post was somewhat of a troll have just derailed the thread themselves. What was the point? This being a public forum and all, you have to expect to disagree with people occasionally........and when it does happen, have the maturity to let things slide that don't matter.

now I'm derailing, sorry..........I'm off..........everyone needs to chill out
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:55 PM   #107
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sound asleep, in case you missed it, check out 'the world is sound: nada brahma' and 'the third ear: on listening to the world' by joachim-ernst berendt.
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Sound Asleep, with all due respect, I did read your first post and I didn't see anything in it that stated that replies mentioning faith in God were not welcome. If that was your intention then it would've been far more appropriate to state that and I would've respected that and not replied.
As it is, I did not interpret your initial post as excluding my involvement and I simply replied with what I believe about "why music?"
I was quite prepared to leave it at that but a bunch of people thought it necessary to take my post and drag it through the mud.

If you don't want Christians replying to your topic, then simply stating as such in clear terms up front would've been beneficial.
i don't care who answers or what's their beliefs. my post stated

"I mean let's assume for the sake of discussion that evolution is responsible for all of our features, and those of all other animals.

but then why or how have we evolved the abilty to create and have the appreciation for music? "


if you say god did it or creationism did it, then you're not assuming evolution is responsible for all our features.

i didn't say christians, or people that believe in god cannot post, because i didn't mean that. anyone with any beleifs could have answered as long as tehy began with the assumption that evolution is the force responsible for our features. which is what you didn't do. i would not bar you from participating in any discussion i would have. however, for the discussion assuming evolution and not creationism was necessary. which is why i said that.

yes, people dragged your post into the mud, exactly what i expected, and really, exactly what you should have expected as well.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:58 PM   #108
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Hmm, I don't understand why some people are getting so hot and bothered about a post they disagree with. If you ignore something, it no longer will bother you.

The ironic thing is, those who feel Dannii's initial post was somewhat of a troll have just derailed the thread themselves. What was the point? This being a public forum and all, you have to expect to disagree with people occasionally........and when it does happen, have the maturity to let things slide that don't matter.

now I'm derailing, sorry..........I'm off..........everyone needs to chill out
ya exactly, actually someone else had posted something abotu god or creationism before that and it was successfully ignored. but the thing is, is that sometimes once something gets started it's really hard to ignore. but ya, ignoring it would have been the correct response, but posting it in the first place was also a mistake. i tried to avoid it, i had a feeling that would happen. what can you do.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:00 PM   #109
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sound asleep, in case you missed it, check out 'the world is sound: nada brahma' and 'the third ear: on listening to the world' by joachim-ernst berendt.
i'll try and check em out, the thing is i'm tight on cash, and i don't tend to spend much time reading. idk. i'm not really the reading type i guess, except i kind of wish i was in a way because reading is a huge source of information.
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:23 PM   #110
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Wow guys, just wow!!! It seems censorship and lack of tolerance of anything to do with God abounds here despite the fact that this is a public forum about music and the question was asked "why music?" to which I simply gave my honest and free opinion.
Wow indeed. Who is the one being intolerant? You call the concept of evolution ludicrous. Does that sound like a person who is being tolerant of other beliefs? I have spent over 30 years working in the biological sciences, and many, many hours considering the implications of evolution. It is simply insulting for you to say that the concept of evolution is ludicrous, and that someone who has not had your particular religious experience is incapable of understanding anything. I defend your right to believe what you believe, and apologize if I appeared to attack your beliefs. But first take the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

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Old 08-19-2010, 05:44 AM   #111
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Wow indeed. Who is the one being intolerant? You call the concept of evolution ludicrous. Does that sound like a person who is being tolerant of other beliefs? I have spent over 30 years working in the biological sciences, and many, many hours considering the implications of evolution. It is simply insulting for you to say that the concept of evolution is ludicrous, and that someone who has not had your particular religious experience is incapable of understanding anything. I defend your right to believe what you believe, and apologize if I appeared to attack your beliefs. But first take the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

T
I was simply stating my belief. I wasn't attempting to force anyone into that belief. I DO believe evolution is ludicrous. You clearly do not. I accept that but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you, nor do you have to agree with me.

I'm perfectly OK with those here who believe music has evolutionary roots. I do not believe that personally but, again, that is simply my belief based upon my life experiences. To each their own.
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:56 AM   #112
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I was simply stating my belief. I wasn't attempting to force anyone into that belief. I DO believe evolution is ludicrous. You clearly do not. I accept that but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you, nor do you have to agree with me.

I'm perfectly OK with those here who believe music has evolutionary roots. I do not believe that personally but, again, that is simply my belief based upon my life experiences. To each their own.
you should perhaps take the time to understand evolution then and take in all the supporting evidence.

but really the point is not what your belief is, and the point is not whether or not you were trying to convert anyone.

the point is you hijacked the thread when you should have known full well that would likely end up the result. and even if you didn't which is ok, i had explicitly stated in the original post that we were to suppose evolution was the correct theory for the purposes of the discussion in this thread. because I HAD known that a creationist post would hijack the thread.

and then you disrespectfully ignored that, and posted about your beliefs anyways, and that resulted in the thread being hijacked.

"I was only posting my opinion" ya, well when you shoot someone all you do is move your finger. obviously the two things are not equivalents, but i think you get what i'm saying.

your opinion cannot co-exist in a thread such as this. because your opinion is in conflict with this. your belief of god cannot exist in a scientific environment. it is not possible. i don't know why you'd even want to enter into one. science questions and searches and ponders and discusses, and your belief makes you think you know everything already. so then there's no wondering and no pondering and no need to discuss anything. so why showup at all? you said you read my first post. did you not notice i had take creationism into account in it? you just wanted to remind everybody that Danii believed in god? you just wished to irritate us? you just wanted to purposefully hijack the thread?

i'm wondering. why did you post your opinion?

you got the result you desired? you wished to disrespect me and ruin the discussion we were having? what were your intentions?

do you not see that what you did was inappropriate?

why did you bring god into this?
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:04 AM   #113
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Here is a way of avoiding any further thread hijacking from both sides of the argument.

If nobody can be bothered to make a new thread to continue the discussion, then clearly the discussion doesn't need to be had.
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:54 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by DanXIV View Post
I think it was utilitarian at first and then it evolved to music. We did not invent the wheel to build race cars...

"It has been recently suggested that the primary function of music was a defense (through the intimidating audio-visual display), used by early hominids against the major predators of Africa after they descended to the ground"
I like that answer. Many sounds in nature just seem to invoke an emotional response. The growl of a large animal invokes fear (or power if you're mimicking it... enter electric guitar). Possibly a stream's calming sounds ("babbling" brook?) tell us to hang out for a while.

Thoughtfully organizing them should enable a manipulation of our emotions, right?
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:14 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
Wow guys, just wow!!! It seems censorship and lack of tolerance of anything to do with God abounds here ...!
Danni, I think you're misinterpreting this as frustration with someone who says:

Everything in the world = GOD, therefore, no answers required.

"IF" that's your stance then all there is left to do is eat, have sex (maybe) and do the dishes.

It makes WONDERING pointless, doesn't it? And if you arbitrarily accept that wondering is pointless every time you cannot find a solution or answer, then you can be screwed in every way from just about anyone who pretends to have that solution or answer.

That's all these guys/girls/savages are saying.

Edit: I meant that anyone leading an organization of believers can mislead them if they believe he is speaking on behalf of God ie. suicide cults, etc. It's too easy. Which is why so many of them do it.
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:25 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by -kiff- View Post
Thoughtfully organizing them should enable a manipulation of our emotions, right?
and perception too, ie the low frequency elements of sounds travel farther in nature than high frequency content hence turning down the treble to move a sound towards the back of a mix.

*edit* brainwaves, too. see binaural beats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

Last edited by artifus; 08-19-2010 at 08:33 AM. Reason: link
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:28 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
I personally believe God created music. I also believe He created us in His image and gave us musical ability and appreciation.
I no longer believe in evolution either. To me, it is a ludicrous concept.
That ^^^ was the answer given to the question asked. Pure and simple.

The REST of you jumped all over the answer because it did not suit YOUR own thoughts/beliefs or lack of.

Grow the f$%k up...

D
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:45 AM   #118
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That ^^^ was the answer given to the question asked. Pure and simple.

The REST of you jumped all over the answer because it did not suit YOUR own thoughts/beliefs or lack of.

Grow the f$%k up...

D
Look, the facts of the matter are that Dannii and the rest of the extremist/fundamentalist/creationist christians represent a tiny little fraction of christians yet portray any arguments against their ludicrous beliefs as being against the christian faith or christians as a whole.

In reality they are very small, but incredibly vocal and annoying splinter group of the christian faith and give it a bad name through their hard sell and lobbying techniques.

The OP actually attempted to put a clause in his post to prevent such hijackings, such is the real chance of Easter Bunny stuff ending up in his otherwise extremely thought-provoking thread. I mean, is it too much to ask?
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:46 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
Danni, I think you're misinterpreting this as frustration with someone who says:

Everything in the world = GOD, therefore, no answers required.

"IF" that's your stance then all there is left to do is eat, have sex (maybe) and do the dishes.

It makes WONDERING pointless, doesn't it? And if you arbitrarily accept that wondering is pointless every time you cannot find a solution or answer, then you can be screwed in every way from just about anyone who pretends to have that solution or answer.

That's all these guys/girls/savages are saying.

Edit: I meant that anyone leading an organization of believers can mislead them if they believe he is speaking on behalf of God ie. suicide cults, etc. It's too easy. Which is why so many of them do it.
Well stated.

If God created music, did he also create MIDI, automatic transmissions, and the internet?
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:56 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
The OP actually attempted to put a clause in his post to prevent such hijackings, such is the real chance of Easter Bunny stuff ending up in his otherwise extremely thought-provoking thread. I mean, is it too much to ask?
Dannii didn't do the hi-jacking. She offered her ASKED FOR opinion. The thread was hi-jacked by intolerant people who couldn't resist the urge to rip apart someone else's beliefs for no good reason at all.

"Religious" people are intolerant? LOL... Not from what I see here. Precisely the opposite is true.

I've 'said' enough. Have a good day folks.

D
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